Karma v C&P: What player activities belong to which mechanism?

[CMDR_Elver]

It seems that gankers (or those that use highly capable ships against weaker, clean, players anyway) are on Sandro's "to do list" for the karma system....

Not including gankers in karma?

My apologies, this is just something entirely new to me and indeed the forum. The karma system was half conceived to counter the fear of murder in Open, so you'll have to forgive my surprise that there's mention of it not included ;P

Yes I know what "karma" was conceived to be. I have been following & contributing the C&P debate for a while and believe C&P can be improved to counter ganking/griefing/seal clubbing etc. But combat logging and general cheats could be in the "karma" realm. I just think the ideas surrounding it are a bit muddled, hence starting the OP. I don't have the confidence in Fdev at the moment to put in place a logical system so want to debate the ideas around karma C&P.

 

[StiTch]

But combat logging and general cheats could be in the "karma" realm.

It 100% should be.

Some people are raising question marks over the technicalities, but I am very confident it's rather quite doable. Not on a first strike basis - perhaps over the course of a few disconnects and beyond.

But the karma system is intended, as described quite well by Rob above, to counteract "antisocial behaviour". FD have declared task killing/"ungraceful" quitting as antisocial, and so it would cause no end of somewhat rightful havoc if suddenly only a few aspects of the antisocial behaviour were being targeted.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

• Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
• Ramming at starports
• Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Hello Commanders!

Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

• Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
• Ramming at starports
• Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).

All I can say - go karma system go!

 

[Robert Maynard]

Hello Commanders!

Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

• Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
• Ramming at starports
• Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).

Thanks, Sandro. A nice, concise list.

 

[StiTch]

Hello Commanders!

Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

• Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
• Ramming at starports
• Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).

Thankyou for clarification

 

[Huita]

Hello Commanders!

Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

• Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
• Ramming at starports
• Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).

Will active abuse of game mechanics, such as combat logging, be in the same boat as normal but "bad" behaviour such as killing and ramming and whatnot?

I mean, it makes sense to have different mechanics for those. Combat logging and the like is very, very bad and should be dealt with on meta level, ramming and killing is just illegal and should be dealt with ingame (but not on the current laughable level). At least i think so.

 

[Marshall...]

Forgive me if you have already answered this, but will we be actually be able to "see" other folks Karma level (wearing it as a badge of honour/shame etc, so folks can easily identify folks "attitude", for lack of a better word)? Or is it only visible to each individual?

 

[Lateralus]

Hello Commanders!

Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

• Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
• Ramming at starports
• Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).

Logging out of combat via the menu should have a karma hit too.. It may be within the rules, but that doesn't make it a desirable action (like two of the three activities you listed).

 

[ForeverN00b]

The other side to the Karma v C&P debate is how and what sanctions there are for "bad karma" or C&P.

To my mind in-game shenanigans should have in-game sanctions or in other words C&P. Therefore, reputation loss, fines, bounties, docking privileges & increased rebuy etc.

Karma implies death & rebirth! Although FDev have not mentioned this at all in above threads I would like to throw this out there. Having "bad karma" increases your likelihood of character death if your ship is destroyed. So 10% bad karma = 10% chance of dying when your ship is destroyed, so loosing all credits, ships, ranks etc., back to the sidewinder. Perhaps as you "bad karma" increases, NPC encounters get tougher increasing your chances of death. If get 100% bad karma then it's instance death, no ship destruction necessary.

Obviously it is a bit draconian but isn't that the point to put a lid on detrimental behaviour. Admittedly, I thought of this in the context of Combat logging and not for things like seal clubbing/griefing (which I put in C&P) but could work for that if the karma system was set up for those sorts of detrimental behaviour. Just a thought!

You want MORE RNG in this game? You're probably the only one.

Punishment shouldn't hinge on RNG, just sayin'

 

[nrage]

Karma implies death & rebirth!

I think the implication here is that is persists past "death" (we don't die, the magic escape pod takes us to safety) unlike other in game punishments like bounties.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Logging out of combat via the menu should have a karma hit too.. It may be within the rules, but that doesn't make it a desirable action (like two of the three activities you listed).

In another thread Sandro mentioned the possibility of a small karma hit for using delayed menu exit (and talked about increasing the timer) - he also mentioned the possibility of the karma hit for actual Combat Logging being reduced when attacked by a low(er?) karma player.

We'll see how it goes....

 

[StiTch]

Logging out of combat via the menu should have a karma hit too.. It may be within the rules, but that doesn't make it a desirable action (like two of the three activities you listed).

I don't see this happening but I also don't believe the current system works well.

What needs to happen: timer increased to minimum 30 seconds, preferably 60 seconds.

When that timer runs out, auto logout occurs for the user.

As an ex-pirate and whatever myself, I am very opposed to CLing, but understand FD's reason for implementation of a menu log "for when real life happens". However it currently doesn't even work for that - you have to hang around and wait for the 15 secs to expire anyway.

A lot would be solved with a longer logout time, so that the player logging has sufficient enough time it isn't just a reliable escape mechanism, but no matter where or what screen they are on when the timer runs out it auto-logs for them.

"Damn, the plumbing just went and this house is soon gonna be two feet below water level? Menu, leave, let's go do something about it". But if you want to use it for running away...a minute's a much worse length of time to be undefended, and encourages real escape attempts.

 

[Lateralus]

In another thread Sandro mentioned the possibility of a small karma hit for using delayed menu exit (and talked about increasing the timer)

I hope so...

- he also mentioned the possibility of the karma hit for actual Combat Logging being reduced when attacked by a low(er?) karma player.

That would be a mistake.. All that would happen here is players would get the signal from FDev that clogging on pirates is ok (current system proposed by SS would leave many pirates with low karma).

Combat logging should always receive a heavy karma penalty because it's the only action listed by Sandro that is outside of the rules.

 

[Robert Maynard]

That would be a mistake.. All that would happen here is players would get the signal from FDev that clogging on pirates is ok (current system proposed by SS would leave many pirates with low karma).

I'd see it more as a "Combat Logging is not good but what the other player was doing is worse so there'll be less of a consequence on this occasion".

Combat logging should always receive a heavy karma penalty because it's the only action listed by Sandro that is outside of the rules.

Proving, beyond doubt, that a lost connection was actually Combat Logging would seem to be the issue, especially if a heavy karma penalty would be (possibly incorrectly) applied.

 

[Lateralus]

Proving, beyond doubt, that a lost connection was actually Combat Logging would seem to be the issue, especially if a heavy karma penalty would be (possibly incorrectly) applied.

I would assume that some kind of trend criteria would be satisfied first; 'Player x has lost connection when attacked by other players three times in succession : negative karma applied'

 

[Robert Maynard]

I would assume that some kind of trend criteria would be satisfied first; 'Player x has lost connection when attacked by other players three times in succession : negative karma applied'

That's how I interpret it too.

.... I'd add a "bonus" for players that initiate combat then lose connection though.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Arc!

The current line of thinking is that the player's karma rating (dressed up as some form of Pilot's Federation rating) will be visible to everyone.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Hello Commander Arc!

The current line of thinking is that the player's karma rating (dressed up as some form of Pilot's Federation rating) will be visible to everyone.

Will it take the form of the current ranking systems? So you'd have "Solid, upstanding citizen" at the top and "Utter Scoundrel" at the bottom? That could be fun.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Hello Commander Arc!

The current line of thinking is that the player's karma rating (dressed up as some form of Pilot's Federation rating) will be visible to everyone.

Would that PF Rating be instantly visibly on selecting the ship on the scanner?