Keyboard and Mouse support confimed for Xbox. What about elite?

[Deleted member 110222]

No doubt. If joysticks were so precise and good we'd see CS-pro's using them. In fact there is a video of the famous CS:GO profile Anomaly testing all kinds of similar set-ups to compare with KBAM and I recall other Youtubers doing the same. Even the top-tier joysticks paired with something like Joystick curves doesn't come even remotely close to the pinpoint accuracy of a mouse. But I definitely feel that for thruster control a joystick is the better choice.

That being said I really don't see one of the most evasive CMDRs in the galaxy suffering. I guess it just comes down to habit in regards to thruster control.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnv8pg2O5v4&list=LLJ3AUG6VINjP22gfZcQnKkQ&index=23

Oh yeah, keyboard isn't all that good for throttle. I used incremental throttle by 10%... Not as good as other methods. But on the aiming side of things... Mouse is better.

 

[CMDR Greg Wayne]

Only 1,000 hours.....on something completely foreign doesn't make it suddenly better or worse when comparing it against something you've likely spent 20,000 hours on. To put it into perspective, 1,000 hours is less than half a year if we are basing that off working hours in a 5 day week. If you're my age, then mouse and keyboard have been used at work alone for a min of 41,000 hours not including gaming so that's easily 60,000-80,000 hours of familiarity.

Its not that mouse mouse and keyboard or more precise, but that you're more familiar with it.
If you reverse it around, for example....my kids are in elementary school and quickly grasped gamepad and touch interfaces while they struggled for over a year learning mouse and keyboard constantly looking down and making mistakes or pressing the wrong keys. They show that touch and game pad are easier to grasp, more natural and due to their usage, they are more precise without mouse and keyboard. This includes gaming not just school items.

The point is....it's use. Design also plays a big part but It's silly to argue that something is more precise if that's something you've been accustomed to in many different environments for over 10-30 years depending upon your age.

Fact does remain though. When it comes to accuracy joysticks do not come close to a mouse. A combination of how mice works and the sensors used vs how joysticks work and the subpar sensors of a stick.

Sure, you can continue to defend that if I had been using sticks all my life I'd be as good as with a mouse. I dare say you are plain wrong there. If I can't achieve pinpoint accuracy in 1000 hours I never will.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

Fact does remain though. When it comes to accuracy joysticks do not come close to a mouse. A combination of how mice works and the sensors used vs how joysticks work and the subpar sensors of a stick.

Sure, you can continue to defend that if I had been using sticks all my life I'd be as good as with a mouse. I dare say you are plain wrong there. If I can't achieve pinpoint accuracy in 1000 hours I never will.

It's not defending it's looking at the whole situation objectively.

Thats not a fact that one is more precise than the other, it's based on the user, the hardware (mouse and keyboard) and interfacing vs another piece of hardware and the exact same other comparisons. Your ability to achieve accuracy is based on many factors, most of which never relate to the next user.

Surface, chair, ergonomics, motor skills, muscle mass and density, usage, onset of experiences as well as the bigger impact, willingness or openness. The one true fact is many humans become habitual after 21-30 days and after continued usage they become more and more resistant to change.

 

[Fray]

But make no mistake. A mouse *is* objectively more accurate.

And that does matter at the top of the skill spectrum.

And there's the rub. Or, rather one of them: how many times have you needed that "top of the skill spectrum" when docking a T6? Do I need "top of the skill spectrum" if I tend to avoid combat (NPC's or PvP)? Will taking off be easier? More enjoyable? Will my take-off/FA-off/re-orient/boost/FA-on and eventual FSD engage that I sometimes do at ports be incrementally improved? Maybe... but so what? Is it necessary? Is it transformative?

Is it enough to offset the irritation of sitting at a desk/table or having to sit in a certain way to use the damned interface? Is it enough to sacrifice the option to just stand up, walk around, whilst operating one half of a pad as I do something else briefly in the room? Is it enough to not be able to set it down next to an open notebook at a table (the one I'm currently sat at), and be able to adjust angles or thrust or initiate a jump with one hand, and effortlessly pick it up and operate the ship as I step back to the chair?

Yes, a mouse is essentially more sensitive for looking around and aiming.

But the glaringly obvious point most PC obsessives tend to neglect is very often that's simply not required. And sacrificing all that a console experience offers for a few percent of required "top of the skill spectrum" moments (or tens or hundreds of hours gameplay) is just a pitiful trade-off to those who value pads. No amount of flight stick use or, worse, mouse use (I say that from an experiential POV, i.e. game peripheral > data entry equipment) would've helped me in my 15 or so rebuys on Elite in particular; the combat failures tended to result from simply being outgunned and/or outnumbered, and the crashes came from lack of concentration and plain ol' bad judgement.

Also, another caveat on the notion of the mouse's famed/infamous objective accuracy: not only is it simply not required most of the time (or at all, in many games), but it is obviously very relative. If someone does not enjoy the physical experience of using a mouse and keyboard to game with, then they simply won't put in the hours to learn, adapt, and improve. I am 'objectively' superior with a pad than a mouse (and if we're talking degrees of improvement the Elite pad with the tallest sticks and some deadzone/accel curve tweaks improves accuracy/precision. game pads can certainly improve on what they are, starting with the Elite/Scuf designs).

So ultimately, the 'objective' improvement is either unnecessary, or simply not even noticeable. It becomes a purely academic perk.

 

[xondk]

considering they didnt want to do anything with the kinect for voice attack I doubt it. I'm just hoping they actually support some of the mixed reality headsets for the x1x with elite

Kinect really isn't needed for voice just fyi, and the thing you have to remember, for things like voice attack to work well on pc you have to train your pc to understand you, making a 'general' well working voice recognition is very difficult and even then, what languages do you support? why only some? the scope quickly grows too big, for something that likely won't be that great, look at how long it took google/apple to get their voice recognition to the level it is at now, and it isn't perfect.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

And there's the rub. Or, rather one of them: how many times have you needed that "top of the skill spectrum" when docking a T6? Do I need "top of the skill spectrum" if I tend to avoid combat (NPC's or PvP)? Will taking off be easier? More enjoyable? Will my take-off/FA-off/re-orient/boost/FA-on and eventual FSD engage that I sometimes do at ports be incrementally improved? Maybe... but so what? Is it necessary? Is it transformative?

Is it enough to offset the irritation of sitting at a desk/table or having to sit in a certain way to use the damned interface? Is it enough to sacrifice the option to just stand up, walk around, whilst operating one half of a pad as I do something else briefly in the room? Is it enough to not be able to set it down next to an open notebook at a table (the one I'm currently sat at), and be able to adjust angles or thrust or initiate a jump with one hand, and effortlessly pick it up and operate the ship as I step back to the chair?

Yes, a mouse is essentially more sensitive for looking around and aiming.

But the glaringly obvious point most PC obsessives tend to neglect is very often that's simply not required. And sacrificing all that a console experience offers for a few percent of required "top of the skill spectrum" moments (or tens or hundreds of hours gameplay) is just a pitiful trade-off to those who value pads. No amount of flight stick use or, worse, mouse use (I say that from an experiential POV, i.e. game peripheral > data entry equipment) would've helped me in my 15 or so rebuys on Elite in particular; the combat failures tended to result from simply being outgunned and/or outnumbered, and the crashes came from lack of concentration and plain ol' bad judgement.

Also, another caveat on the notion of the mouse's famed/infamous objective accuracy: not only is it simply not required most of the time (or at all, in many games), but it is obviously very relative. If someone does not enjoy the physical experience of using a mouse and keyboard to game with, then they simply won't put in the hours to learn, adapt, and improve. I am 'objectively' superior with a pad than a mouse (and if we're talking degrees of improvement the Elite pad with the tallest sticks and some deadzone/accel curve tweaks improves accuracy/precision. game pads can certainly improve on what they are, starting with the Elite/Scuf designs).

So ultimately, the 'objective' improvement is either unnecessary, or simply not even noticeable. It becomes a purely academic perk.

You do know that if mouse and keyboard is introduced to you'll still be able to play with a game pad, right?

As I already said, nobody is forcing you to learn a new device.

 

[CMDR Greg Wayne]

It's not defending it's looking at the whole situation objectively.

Thats not a fact that one is more precise than the other, it's based on the user, the hardware (mouse and keyboard) and interfacing vs another piece of hardware and the exact same other comparisons. Your ability to achieve accuracy is based on many factors, most of which never relate to the next user.

Surface, chair, ergonomics, motor skills, muscle mass and density, usage, onset of experiences as well as the bigger impact, willingness or openness. The one true fact is many humans become habitual after 21-30 days and after continued usage they become more and more resistant to change.

I can guarantee that two users with no experience of either tool will be able to use a mouse more accurately than a stick. You claim to be objective but still deny the fact that mice have better sensors than any stick on the market currently. As I said, and I will repeat, it comes down to how the two tools work. Mice are more intuitive to use, without a doubt. Had that not been the case we'd use sticks for navigating desktops. Arguably touch screens are even more intuitive for every day navigation but will still be at a loss as far as FPS gaming precision goes. I have spent close to an equal amount of hours gaming with analog sticks as I have been doing PC-gaming I might add.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

I can guarantee that two users with no experience of either tool will be able to use a mouse more accurately than a stick. You claim to be objective but still deny the fact that mice have better sensors than any stick on the market currently. As I said, and I will repeat, it comes down to how the two tools work. Mice are more intuitive to use, without a doubt. Had that not been the case we'd use sticks for navigating desktops. Arguably touch screens are even more intuitive for every day navigation but will still be at a loss as far as FPS gaming precision goes. I have spent close to an equal amount of hours gaming with analog sticks as I have been doing PC-gaming I might add.

Please detail how you've obtained certainty of any guarantee you mention above.

Mice (plural) are made with many different sensors, so remaining objective, (mice plural) involves many as is not specific to certain ones, just as gamepad and HOTAS are (plural) however in context to this topic, the gamepad aren't as many and there are no HOTAS for Xbox one available to the public.

I'm speaking from actual experience of gaming on Xbox one with two specific Logitech mice, two specific Microsoft brand mice, two specific keyboards, one being Logitech and the other being Microsoft. Those specific devices are not more precise and also aren't more intuitive to "me" in actual use for "me" therefore it's not a fact that mice are more precise than gamepad. It's based on the user and many other factors.

That is remaining open and subjective as I'm not stating that it applies to everyone as it applies to me. I'm communicating it applies differently to everyone based on many other factors and or circumstances.

 

[Nidhöggr]

...you're not even trying to concede this is a subjective matter? Because it is. You may find them "crap", but I and countless others certainly do not. Both positions are 'true' to those holding the opinions.

yes, and since this is a subjective matter: modern joypads are crap.

And tell me, precisely, what is gained by digital on/off input for movement in most games? How would sneaking or walking (ergo a fundamental aspect of the entire game experience) in, say, a TES or a Deus Ex be improved by being incapable of variable speed? Adherents of M&K may accept that quaint limitation, but I left it in the past with Tomb Raider 1's ungainly digitally inclined walk-or-run.

Regardless of your subjective opinion it proves that the solution is adopted en masse, cost-effective, simple, and by its nature popular. And it will not disappear until some other just as convenient option presents itself - I wouldn't predict thumbsticks going anywhere in populist gaming until we see significant leaps in interfaces (which are also simple, cost-effective, etc). They'll be around for the foreseeable future.

variable speeds in cases of walking and running aren't a issue, since even mouses have enough buttons to fast switch between modes. when coming to variable speeds in racing and space sims, even then the joypad is only a cheap solution, like a keyboard is, otherwise there won't be a market for racing and sim gear, since i got my g29 for my main playstation, racing sims have become fun on the console.
joypads are really good for jump and runs and beat em ups, this hast been the case since forever, but then it ends.
it's popularity comes from the lack of alternatives and also, as you noted, it's cheap.

how sony and microsoft handled that matter in the past was disgusting and arrogant, at least microsoft has now taken the next small step forward to cross plattform gaming, kudos for that.

i have 2 ps4 pro and all previous generations, i (we) play with all of them since they are released, and still, joypads are crap in most cases.

ah, and let's not forget: subjective matter [haha]

 

[CMDR Greg Wayne]

Most basic mice have better sensors than even high-end joysticks do. When it comes to budget sticks most are absolutely crap. The T16000M (50-70$ depending on supplier) has the same sensor as the high end Warthog and as it stands it factually doesn't come even remotely close to the precision of my mouse (in the 25$ price range) (based on technical specifications). Subjectively speaking it is so darned apparent, that claims of joysticks being able to compare is nothing short of upsetting.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

Most basic mice have better sensors than even high-end joysticks do. When it comes to budget sticks most are absolutely crap. The T16000M (50-70$ depending on supplier) has the same sensor as the high end Warthog and as it stands it factually doesn't come even remotely close to the precision of my mouse (in the 25$ price range) (based on technical specifications). Subjectively speaking it is so darned apparent, that claims of joysticks being able to compare is nothing short of upsetting.

None of this creates fact or any measurable confirmation that one is more precise or more accurate. The marketing suggests improvements on hardware but none of that is specific to any and all end users.

Its s really nothing more than a matter of opinion per user, and not a matter of fact.

 

[Fray]

You do know that if mouse and keyboard is introduced to you'll still be able to play with a game pad, right?

As I already said, nobody is forcing you to learn a new device.

Yes... I'm aware of that. I was just addressing why some people have no need or use for 'objective' superiority, and that for many it's an academic perk.

yes, and since this is a subjective matter: modern joypads are crap.

Well, we're mostly fine, then, although you're still trying to present it as a statement of fact which is problematic. 'I think modern joypads are crap' is more like it.

Also, out of curiosity; why 'modern'? Why the distinction? I'm not sure how anyone could try to claim the Elite is somehow worse than the guff we were putting up with on SNES and Maga Drive, or 3rdP pads for systems like the Amiga.

variable speeds in cases of walking and running aren't a issue, since even mouses have enough buttons to fast switch between modes.

It's not needing to toggle that's the issue - it's the lack of a range of movement. To me that is a fundamental element of game interaction in a 3D space (preferably 2D as well, but depending on genre it tends not to be relevant); analogue movement and looking/cam-control.

I understand why some would bias towards an emphasis of looking/aiming, but I don't share it.

when coming to variable speeds in racing and space sims, even then the joypad is only a cheap solution, like a keyboard is, otherwise there won't be a market for racing and sim gear, since i got my g29 for my main playstation, racing sims have become fun on the console.

Agreed; after using a wheel I couldn't go back to a pad - a wheel is a dedicated gaming device, unlike the vast majority of K&M combinations (I have a reasonable 'gaming' mouse and other than having extra buttons, dpi tiers, weights, and profiles, it's still just a mouse).

I would say arcade racers are fine with a pad, but I've no interest in those, so for me it's wheel or nothing for sims.

joypads are really good for jump and runs and beat em ups, this hast been the case since forever, but then it ends.

Then it ends? What ends?

And no, I'd say pads aren't really good for fighters at all; they're good enough for general players. An arcade stick is much more preferable. I've never been good enough to justify a stick, and I don't really play 2D fighters anymore, but I did always want to use a stick instead when I was getting pretty decent with SFIV and, to a lesser extent, BlazBlue.

it's popularity comes from the lack of alternatives and also, as you noted, it's cheap.

how sony and microsoft handled that matter in the past was disgusting and arrogant, at least microsoft has now taken the next small step forward to cross plattform gaming, kudos for that.

You honestly believe pads have endured this long just because, what, K&M wasn't available from the off with all platforms? So you're entirely ignoring the emphasis of living room/sofa playing convenience that has shaped the entire industry for decades?

Are keyboards and mouse somehow the apex of game input, then? A descendant of a word processor coupled with a pointer?

K&M on XB1 will no doubt see a minority of users adding the option, and hopefully it'll see more mouse dependent genres being released (not for me, simply for the overall health and variety of the platform), but it will do nothing in terms of the appeal of pads for general console use.

 

[Nidhöggr]

you really don't get i'm trolling around and actualy don't give a sht?

but i think controllers are crap, what ever reason someone puts up against it, i don't care at all

 

[Fray]

you really don't get i'm trolling around and actualy don't give a sht?

but i think controllers are crap, what ever reason someone puts up against it, i don't care at all

Ah, so you just wasted your time and mine? Wonderful. Maybe you can do less inane trolling in the future and be a tad more mature/considerate to those who take discussion on a forum in good faith, at face value.

 

[Nidhöggr]

[squeeeee]

 

[oscarolim]

Are you only hoping for keyboard implementation on Elite on console? I assume button boxes would need completely separate support - and that's surely a no-go, unless we have flight stick support added and established first.

No, a button box is really just a keyboard controller with a different layout. They work on PS4 on Project Cars. All they need to do is allow us to bind the countless controls to different keys.

 

[Tychu9]

You know how I know that the Elite Spaceships don't use mouse and keyboard? You can look down at your pilot in game. You look left, there is a virtual keyboard. You look right, there is a virtual keyboard. I have been a console gamer my entire life. My first memory of video games? A pinball game on the NES and being told by my father, "You can play, but do not leave the town". (Dragon Warrior for NES). I have dabbled in PC games (Sim City, Roller Coaster Tycoon). A keyboard and mouse are terrible controls, I cannot fathom the movements. I am magnificent with aiming with duel sticks on a controller and I play with the Y-Axis inverted in all games.

Would I want a HOTAS? Yes. Will I be better? Maybe, I am extremely comfortable with an XboxOne controller playing Eliteangerous. That being said, you can already play with a keyboard, just plug a USB one into your Xbox and you can type away. I have not tried to map any controls to it, I'm not sure that is possible, but you can have riveting conversations with people or easily type in unpopulated star systems.

 

[57thStIncident]

I am not interested in having a mouse for flying & aiming and I respect the notion that it can fundamentally alter competitive gameplay because of the unusual extra precision when aiming. When I play with a console, it's because I want to do it sitting on my couch rather than at a desk.

The ability to map more buttons would be great. Just a few more buttons for a bit more flexibility and direct access than fire groups currently offers -- for example, I don't want chaff used through L or R trigger. Let me assign it to the 'c' button on my chatpad. Let me get landing gear and cargo scoop and 'headlights' far away from the 'boost' button. Let me not accidentally deploy/stow hardpoints when trying to navigate between cockpit panels, etc..

Rather than heaping all the blame on the console maker though, I think a little more criticism should be sent Frontier's way -- some of the supporting screens are kind of obnoxious/difficult to use on the X-box. For example:

1. The Commodities Market - really, scrolling through that really long list with the dpad? You can't access that dropdown at the top to switch the right-most column from 'Galactic Average' to show import export info from a selected system without re-scrolling all the way to the top (and losing the place in the list of what you were looking at).

2. Galactic Map - navigating that 3D map in both dimensions is a bit tricky where you switch between Y-axis and X/Z axes with the 'X' button. The kind of thing that tends to work better on a PC with a modifier key.

3. System Map - why have a cursor rather than jump directly between selectable objects (planets, moons, stations, etc)?

4. Both Galactic and System maps -- navigation switching between right-side map and left information bar is awkward, where when you find/select an object on the right, the focus tends to jump back to the left panel. I tend to need to give the analog stick a tap to get the focus back on the right side so that I can plot a route or drill down to the system or planet map, etc.

5. There are others ... for example in 'Shipyard', selecting ship in the left pane and then transitioning to scroll vertically for the information on the right side.

A lot of of these problems appear to be caused by directly porting screens that were designed to be used with a mouse directly to X-box rather than coming up with a design that is functional when using a gamepad.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

I am not interested in having a mouse for flying & aiming and I respect the notion that it can fundamentally alter competitive gameplay because of the unusual extra precision when aiming. When I play with a console, it's because I want to do it sitting on my couch rather than at a desk.

The ability to map more buttons would be great. Just a few more buttons for a bit more flexibility and direct access than fire groups currently offers -- for example, I don't want chaff used through L or R trigger. Let me assign it to the 'c' button on my chatpad. Let me get landing gear and cargo scoop and 'headlights' far away from the 'boost' button. Let me not accidentally deploy/stow hardpoints when trying to navigate between cockpit panels, etc..

Rather than heaping all the blame on the console maker though, I think a little more criticism should be sent Frontier's way -- some of the supporting screens are kind of obnoxious/difficult to use on the X-box. For example:

1. The Commodities Market - really, scrolling through that really long list with the dpad? You can't access that dropdown at the top to switch the right-most column from 'Galactic Average' to show import export info from a selected system without re-scrolling all the way to the top (and losing the place in the list of what you were looking at).

2. Galactic Map - navigating that 3D map in both dimensions is a bit tricky where you switch between Y-axis and X/Z axes with the 'X' button. The kind of thing that tends to work better on a PC with a modifier key.

3. System Map - why have a cursor rather than jump directly between selectable objects (planets, moons, stations, etc)?

4. Both Galactic and System maps -- navigation switching between right-side map and left information bar is awkward, where when you find/select an object on the right, the focus tends to jump back to the left panel. I tend to need to give the analog stick a tap to get the focus back on the right side so that I can plot a route or drill down to the system or planet map, etc.

5. There are others ... for example in 'Shipyard', selecting ship in the left pane and then transitioning to scroll vertically for the information on the right side.

A lot of of these problems appear to be caused by directly porting screens that were designed to be used with a mouse directly to X-box rather than coming up with a design that is functional when using a gamepad.

(Applause)

 

[Fray]

I have dabbled in PC games (Sim City, Roller Coaster Tycoon). A keyboard and mouse are terrible controls, I cannot fathom the movements. I am magnificent with aiming with duel sticks on a controller and I play with the Y-Axis inverted in all games.

Familiarity and habit would see you improve, so it's unfair to call them terrible. The subjective perks are potentially meaningless, though, so it's whatever works for you (or anyone else).

The ability to map more buttons would be great. Just a few more buttons for a bit more flexibility and direct access than fire groups currently offers -- for example, I don't want chaff used through L or R trigger.

I effectively have chaff bound to B+Dpad up, and it works fine. Sure, context inputs via the B button can be dicey... but I can't remember the last time I screwed up a landing, so you can clearly get used to it.

Rather than heaping all the blame on the console maker though, I think a little more criticism should be sent Frontier's way -- some of the supporting screens are kind of obnoxious/difficult to use on the X-box.

All your points are quite fair, but Elite is essentially a PC game at heart - aren't some issues just a given?

I don't think anyone could suggest it's a bad version of the game, by any means (though the detail pop-in on the ship models really needs to be improved/fixed).

3. System Map - why have a cursor rather than jump directly between selectable objects (planets, moons, stations, etc)?

I actually like how it handles now, though once snapped to an object there's no reason why certain buttons couldn't allow for quick scrolling/jumping. It might get more finicky, however, when dealing with systems with lots of moons and multiple systems connected to the primary.

5. There are others ... for example in 'Shipyard', selecting ship in the left pane and then transitioning to scroll vertically for the information on the right side.

Surely there are bigger issues with the shipyard. Like how it's nothing but a laterally scrolling window with crappy holographic depictions. Would anyone buy a car or a house just by looking at a lo-res holo of its exterior? ; -)

And now I'm going to create a thread about this in a sec...

But yes, the way the cursor works on the drearily humdrum shipyard screen certainly isn't intuitively user friendly. Not a major issue, but a small le.

(oh man, this auto-censor malarky is absolute on this site... a word beginning with N meaning a small irritating problem gets hacked down to '-le'? ugh... )