Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[Bunkerkind Anni]

can we have a new topic started in focused feedback...
one that is moderated? please

edit: sorry, hit the send button to early:

Sandro - the KWS doesn't need so much change.
you either leave it as it was, and Criminals have to deal with the consequences of beeing criminals,

or you change it to what you have intended to,
and make sure that NPCs that you scan with the KWS have their second largest bounty from their own minor faction too.

don't overcomplicate it....

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

My point, which was actually in response to the fact that a bounty, even a trespass one, would potentially be a superpower bounty due to how the new KWS might work, is that it would in fact be much more inconvenient as I would have to pay off that bounty as soon as I finish the mission.

No, the whole "KWS legitimise" thing would only be for bounty hunters, not system authorities. Your bounty is still local, so if you return to another system for turn in, the System Authority vessels at port won't discover your bounty through the scan and open fire. That's why I initially objected and Sandro replied with the "only NPC bounty hunters would have a KWS." To get an actual super power/insterstellar bounty you're going to need to get a really big fine (probably need to murder 1 or more player ships).

Paying off bounties isn't 'easier' now for those small bounties. Far from it. Currently in game they are gone in eight minutes. I can play for weeks without bothering to visit an IF as the legacy fines mean nothing, have zero impact on gameplay. Now, I will have an active bounty until I actively go and pay it off, and if, as Sandro suggested, NPC bounty hunters will start being given KWS and can thus pester me for my few hundred credit bounty and legally destroy me (and I'm not legally able to defend myself), then that will, at least for me, be a right PITA, and will effectively deter me from the legitimate gameplay of taking planetary scan missions.

Actually, once those dormant bounties go to fines, they actually do still matter. Accrue enough and bounty hunters will track you down - you know, the random "There's the big score" guys - for this. I remember back during the 2.1 "Skynet AI" NPC debacle, when I was constantly pursued by Elite Anacondas/FDLs, for no reason, Frontier reps kept suggesting/asking "Do you have any unpaid fines?" As far as I knew, I didn't because they were long dormant. When the Brokers were introduced much later, I went to them and, sure enough, I had about 33000 credits in total fines due to lots of little 200 cr fines here, 400 cr fines there... that I'd long forgotten about. I hadn't been back to those systems, so they hadn't show up in my list to pay off. When I did clear the back log, the amount of NPCs chasing me - if I had zero cargo (limpets excluded) - dropped to zero. Never, ever have anyone come after me.

So it is a good idea to pay those fines off at Broker in live now. It will be more noticeable (due to lack of expiration) in 3.0. This is yet another reason for the C&P cleanup in 3.0.

 

[Ashnak]

... To get an actual super power/insterstellar bounty you're going to need to get a really big fine (probably need to murder 1 or more player ships).
...

Minor point - you might want to hop over to https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/407608-Crime-and-Punishment-in-Beyond-Chapter-One . As I read Ed's summary, the superpower bounties seem to be gone, at least for the time being. Apparently ATRs can now be summoned by individual systems.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Minor point - you might want to hop over to https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/407608-Crime-and-Punishment-in-Beyond-Chapter-One . As I read Ed's summary, the superpower bounties seem to be gone, at least for the time being. Apparently ATRs can now be summoned by individual systems.

Thanks for the tip. That's a really good update on the state of the new C&P system!

Also, based on the following comment, it looks like they might try to introduce some changes (discussed here) to the KWS before the 3.0 launch after all:

Kill Warrant Scanner
We are continuing to look at the functionality of the Kill Warrant Scanner (KWS) after receiving your invaluable feedback and engagement on the forums. We’ll update you with more information as soon as it’s available. Thanks again for your continued support on all of the above.

So that's encouraging.

 

[Faded Glory]

No, the whole "KWS legitimise" thing would only be for bounty hunters, not system authorities. Your bounty is still local, so if you return to another system for turn in, the System Authority vessels at port won't discover your bounty through the scan and open fire. That's why I initially objected and Sandro replied with the "only NPC bounty hunters would have a KWS." To get an actual super power/insterstellar bounty you're going to need to get a really big fine (probably need to murder 1 or more player ships).

Again, I understand this...

My point (which you quote below) is that I'm not interested in being pestered by NPC bounty hunters that I will not be able to defend myself against legally because they used a KWS to scan me for my local bounty elsewhere that then makes me a legitimate target, therefore I will be obliged to visit IF every time I pick up a silly 500 credit trespass bounty for completing a planetary scan mission. I can only speak for me, but that does not enhance my gameplay.

Actually, once those dormant bounties go to fines, they actually do still matter. Accrue enough and bounty hunters will track you down - you know, the random "There's the big score" guys - for this. I remember back during the 2.1 "Skynet AI" NPC debacle, when I was constantly pursued by Elite Anacondas/FDLs, for no reason, Frontier reps kept suggesting/asking "Do you have any unpaid fines?" As far as I knew, I didn't because they were long dormant. When the Brokers were introduced much later, I went to them and, sure enough, I had about 33000 credits in total fines due to lots of little 200 cr fines here, 400 cr fines there... that I'd long forgotten about. I hadn't been back to those systems, so they hadn't show up in my list to pay off. When I did clear the back log, the amount of NPCs chasing me - if I had zero cargo (limpets excluded) - dropped to zero. Never, ever have anyone come after me.

So it is a good idea to pay those fines off at Broker in live now. It will be more noticeable (due to lack of expiration) in 3.0. This is yet another reason for the C&P cleanup in 3.0.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. Legacy fines are just that, they are not bounties, don't become bounties, don't show up under any scan by NPC or player and have zero impact on gameplay. They would simply be added to your rebuy if you happened to be destroyed and re-spawn in a jurisdiction where you had unpaid legacy fines.

I regularly travel around with some thousands of credits worth of legacy fines (from the silly trespass bounties), for weeks at a time, and there are no repercussions for doing so. If I do get scanned for bounties "I felt sure you would have a bounty on you", nothing happens.

I can't really say what happened in your case, except that I suspect that some of those were actual fines (not legacy fines), that at some point turned into actual bounties and which spawned NPC bounty hunters to come after you. They would still have turned up as legacy fines when you looked much later on because the bounties would have long expired.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Again, I understand this...

My point (which you quote below) is that I'm not interested in being pestered by NPC bounty hunters that I will not be able to defend myself against legally because they used a KWS to scan me for my local bounty elsewhere that then makes me a legitimate target, therefore I will be obliged to visit IF every time I pick up a silly 500 credit trespass bounty for completing a planetary scan mission. I can only speak for me, but that does not enhance my gameplay.

I understand that.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. Legacy fines are just that, they are not bounties, don't become bounties, don't show up under any scan by NPC or player and have zero impact on gameplay. They would simply be added to your rebuy if you happened to be destroyed and re-spawn in a jurisdiction where you had unpaid legacy fines.

I regularly travel around with some thousands of credits worth of legacy fines (from the silly trespass bounties), for weeks at a time, and there are no repercussions for doing so. If I do get scanned for bounties "I felt sure you would have a bounty on you", nothing happens.

I can't really say what happened in your case, except that I suspect that some of those were actual fines (not legacy fines), that at some point turned into actual bounties and which spawned NPC bounty hunters to come after you. They would still have turned up as legacy fines when you looked much later on because the bounties would have long expired.

No need to "agree to disagree" we just had different experiences and we're trying to guess how the "magic" is happening behind the curtain. All I can say is that those fines were clearly legacy for me - no longer in my transaction panel and only showed up at the brokers. My guess is that they fixed the code that had the bounty hunters come after us when you still have all that legacy stuff on file, so you had no problems and I didn't either (and thought it was due to clearing that crap out).

But back to the root matter, the "KWS legitimising bounty hunters" and them pursuing you in 3.0 - that was Sandro's suggestion, not mine! I just said I was ok with it (as part of the package that would improve the KWS). If you can get him to drop it for NPCs/out of jurisdiction stuff, that's fine with me. I just want the "KWS scan keeps you from losing faction with the Wanted Ship's faction" part.

 

[sneakyc4]

Hey Sandro, thanks for listening to the community. I created an account just for this post.

I think the same as Raymondo : we just need 2 systems one for NPC (no need to change) one for the players (New System) this way is pretty simple.

The main problem is with the new system is the KWS would clear all bounties which would make Life too easy for griefers.

I don't agree with any of the suggestion you made which I think is going to make things rather complicated. Plus I feel these are just a tape-fix for unforeseen consequences due to C&P changes.

We got to be careful not to enter a logic of creating fix for fixes that were meant to be fixing the things already ...

Sorry Sandro but not even close to good enough!

A - It's overly complicated when there is a far more simple system available, in pseudocode...

if KWS_Complete and target type = NPC then {link to current live code for KWS bounties etc}
else if KWS_complete and target type = Player then {link to beta code for KWS}

B - It does nothing to address the rep issue in many systems. Many systems have multiple aligned factions, many systems have none, so this is still an effective rep nerf over the current live build. Have you even considered how this works in systems with multiple factions aligned to multiple powers or where an independent faction is the controlling one?

C - It's "no ETA or guarantee" IE: Suck up the system we've currently implemented even if you hate it for however long it takes before we can be bothered to work on this...

What people want is the KWS to perform it's existing function in live on NPCs and identify all bounties no matter the faction, if your overly complicated crime and punishment system makes a very simple module that works effectivly "incompatible" then perhaps you should have thought about this earlier? Specifically why it was "incompatible" and what that said about the C&P system? And as all your "issues" with the current KWS and the New C&P system seem to come down to players then the solution is frankly blindingly obvious! And is mentioned in point A and has been proposed by scores of people already!

In summary, and to restate my opening line: Not even close to good enough I'm afraid!

In addition you handwavium on the lore seems dodgy at best...are we really to believe that in the future criminals get processed and detained for one crime at a time then get let go then get hunted down again? Really? Would then not at the very least be detained and punished for all crimes relating to the jurisdiction they were "caught" in? And while the KWS proposal moves towards this system you'd need to change the C&P system to match it if you wanted that to be some logically consistent lore safe feature...
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[sneakyc4]

Hey Sandro o/ thanks for listening to us.

I think like raymondo we just need 2 systems : one for NPC (KWS stays as it is) one for player (scan highest bounty only).

This way we don't harm the PVE community's cash flow and the griefers cannot clear all of their bounties at once.

None of the suggestions are satisfying to me and are bringing more complexity to a game that is already.

 

[sneakyc4]

Hello Sandro and thanks for listening to the community.

I think like Raymondo that we need 2 systems : one for NPCS and one for players.

The main incompatibility of the KWS with the new C&P systems is that player can get all of their bounties cleared by a friend. This defeats the new C&P system.

So just have 2 systems :

If NPC -> keep the current system (Do not harm the PVE community 's cash flow)
if Player -> Only clear highest bounty (Do not harm the C&P system)

None of the suggestion made are satisfying to me : they bring a lot more complexity to a system that already is complex.

 

[DocLooshkin]

Hello, Mr Sammarco.

I'm extremely heartened by your responses to our concerns. It's clear the issues have been heard and understood - and I'm confident you'll take whatever measures are necessary to address them, within the limits of practicality and in concordance with your overall design intentions.

The KWS adjustments you've proposed seem likely to give a reasonable outcome, without the rep-repair work becoming too onerous, at least in Shinrarta Dezhra. I can't speak for players attempting to police other systems, where the local factions might need more work to pacify, but I'm happy enough with that.

I have only two outstanding concerns.

One is that many first-time players follow online guides, most of which seem to start with bounty-hunting, as a fast way to make early money. They carry few, if any, warnings about bad reputation, since it hasn't been such a strong issue prior to the incoming changes. I can envisage such players running up a fair amount of bad rep, leaving the instance to go and cash in their bounties and then getting interdicted and obliterated in short order by unexpectedly hostile local forces. That's going to be very frustrating for new players. Some countervailing measures might be in order for novices.

My other concern seems likely to have been addressed already, but just in case it hasn't: if it's possible to move hot modules between hot ships, carrying bounties with them, it seems like it would be possible for a malicious player to run up hundreds of smaller bounties with dozens of ships across innumerable systems, then selectively move lots of those hot modules into one ship, which would then have thousands of bounties attached. Depending on how the information's stored and transmitted, a subsequent KWS scan might overload a player's system and cause connection failures or game crashes. If it's not already able to do so, the system should be adjusted as necessary to cope with such exploits. The same goes for servers, in the event of simultaneous mass scans of such ships, actively initiated by malicious player groups.

Thank you very much for listening, Mr Sammarco.
It's much appreciated.

 

[Auronio]

First of all - always illustrative and interesting to see how many different opinions and suggestions about a rather simple utility like a KWS exist. It reminds me that this great game allows for so many different approaches to play it - diversity and inclusion in its best!
Well done FDev.

With regards to the KWS or intended changes itself I'm pretty neutral as I don't use it. Tbh I consider the KWS as one of the most useless modules at all.
Why?

I consider myself a combat oriented powerplay trader. 99.x% PvE cause I still consider PvP a myth in this game, playing on PS4 I experienced two hostile encounters in eight months and with 4 digit playing hours (way too much...).

I used the KWS in my early days as inexperienced CMDR and was shocked about how long it took me to scan. A period where I appeared to be unprotected and was attacked already. Of course I nowadays could run to Tiana and upgrade it to fast scan for instance but for what point? I rather don't use it and won't compromise on more useful utilities like heat sinks or shield boosters.

Credit reward for bounties are insignificant compared to the money I can make as a trader in the same time. That's not saying I'm not going bounty hunting pirates. I love it. But never for the credits but only for combat rank in order to achieve this Elite rank before I retire in ten years...
So the only improvement I could think about was to tie the detection of more bounties through a KWS to a more dangerous notoriety of the destroyed ship which would yield a higher increase in your combat rank.
As the proposed changes will diminish the number of detected bounties this option seems to be ruled out.

Bottom line - I'm personally fine with any change of the KWS cause I still won't use it as a player.

 

[ilo]

Bottom line - I'm personally fine with any change of the KWS cause I still won't use it as a player.

However, it is affecting you, or can affect you one day. The changes in the KWS are only a part of the C&P, specially those in use when a player is killed (by another player or NCP) and relate in particular to the extra payment it has to do to clear its 'detention' status and leave the facility.

Yeah, sure you will say now you never go to the other side of the law.. but, who knows, one day you might need to chose a side or another and then you will realise the KWS changes do indeed affect you.

I'm sorry, but I still don't have a clear view on why is so important that a criminal doesn't pay for its crimes 'all at once', specially since it has been detained and is in a prison already.

 

[maehara]

I used the KWS in my early days as inexperienced CMDR and was shocked about how long it took me to scan. A period where I appeared to be unprotected and was attacked already

G5 Fast Scan, put it in the same fire group as your weapons. KWS scan completes in 1-2 seconds while you're already firing (which you won't be doing until you have them shown as Wanted already, right?). Doing this, its use is entirely transparent and I make more from bounties revealed via the KWS than through 'regular' bounties, which is of course why there's so much opposition to the KWS change coming in 3.0. It's a money-generation tool for combat pilots, and nothing else. (I know you say "what's the point?" to engineering the KWS, but that's really the key to making it useful. The 10sec default scan is far too long.)

On the original question, I support the idea that the 'new' system should apply to CMDRs only, retain the current system for NPC bounties.

 

[Mursac]

I'm seeing the potential for improvement beyond just the KWS; you have a chance to improve bounty hunting in general.

As far as the KWS goes, I have one suggestion. Upon completion of the scan, it would show the top three bounties for that jurisdiction in addition to the already visible bounty. Only revealing one bounty at a time in succession might look nice for punishing the offending player, but it's not much use for anyone looking to collect on them.

There would need to be two sets of rules. For players, it would work exactly as described above. For NPC's, it would need some background mechanics. When an NPC is scanned initially, it would show the local bounty as it does currently. When the KWS is used, the sim would would randomly choose three values in between 5,000 Cr and 50% of the initial value, then add these three new random(ish) values to that initial value for a final scanned bounty. This means that a wanted anaconda could have a scanned bounty as low as 265,000 Cr, or (with 250,000 as a base value) or as high as 625,000 Cr. This would soundly fix the biggest issue bounty hunting has: the pay.

To be clear, I'm approaching this from the standpoint that bounty hunting does not pay even remotely enough at the moment. Right now, it's used as the new player's quick earner. What should be the greatest risk/reward activity available is currently neither. To claim a bounty, you only need to scratch a target and let police do the work. This needs to be eliminated to clear the way for better payouts.

You would need to add a damage threshold to NPC's in order to claim their bounty; perhaps 25% hull damage or 50% of the power plant, if that's the cause for destruction. The scanning changes outlined above would increase the reward, and the need to deal more damage would increase the risk. A smaller ship would need to spend significantly more time near their target, and consistently dealing damage. Given how NPC's seem to work, this is almost guaranteed to draw their attention, and their weapon fire by extension. If you're not prepared for that, you die.

 

[Auronio]

However, it is affecting you, or can affect you one day. The changes in the KWS are only a part of the C&P, specially those in use when a player is killed (by another player or NCP) and relate in particular to the extra payment it has to do to clear its 'detention' status and leave the facility.

Yeah, sure you will say now you never go to the other side of the law.. but, who knows, one day you might need to chose a side or another and then you will realise the KWS changes do indeed affect you.

I'm sorry, but I still don't have a clear view on why is so important that a criminal doesn't pay for its crimes 'all at once', specially since it has been detained and is in a prison already.

I am already constantly on the other side of the law due to undermining in powerplay which keeps me constantly running wanted with millions of bounties on my head. I know this will be slightly changed to power related special bounties which are not the same like crime related ones (though powerplay murder is still murder) however I don't believe this will trigger any more players trying to hunt me than now which is currently absolutely nil.

I have little concerns changes of KWS will affect me the one or the other side. But I understand what you mean.
Thx

 

[Auronio]

G5 Fast Scan, put it in the same fire group as your weapons. KWS scan completes in 1-2 seconds while you're already firing (which you won't be doing until you have them shown as Wanted already, right?). Doing this, its use is entirely transparent and I make more from bounties revealed via the KWS than through 'regular' bounties, which is of course why there's so much opposition to the KWS change coming in 3.0. It's a money-generation tool for combat pilots, and nothing else. (I know you say "what's the point?" to engineering the KWS, but that's really the key to making it useful. The 10sec default scan is far too long.)

On the original question, I support the idea that the 'new' system should apply to CMDRs only, retain the current system for NPC bounties.

maehara my dear!

Still I won't use it. KWS has an insane power draw with little benefit other than aquiring a few more bounties I don't need credit-wise. The disadvantage of using another slot which better is used for protection imho is far more detrimental than not knowing a wanted ship was wanted in five other systems.

 

[carlosmaline]

Simple. Link the kws to notoriety. Clear no bounties (or still keep highest recorded) and have galactic reward scheme linked to notoriety. M assuming here that non persistent npcs will have procedural notoriety?

 

[Parmo]

Any lawyers reading this?

We might need some advice on this from http://www.fugitive-recovery.org/.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

maehara my dear!

Still I won't use it. KWS has an insane power draw with little benefit other than aquiring a few more bounties I don't need credit-wise. The disadvantage of using another slot which better is used for protection imho is far more detrimental than not knowing a wanted ship was wanted in five other systems.

Insane power draw? well, only if you fit an A-Rated one for... what reason?

 

[wstephenson]

* A successful KWS scan reveals all bounties for factions aligned with the superpower controlling the current jurisdiction:

** All Federal bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by a Federal faction.

** All Empire bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial faction.

** All Alliance bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Alliance faction.

** All independent bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an independent faction.

* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals.

I am opposed to non-detection of bounties in anarchies, for narrative reasons given earlier. However, I think I could support the above mechanic, tweaked in the following ways:

• All bounties are detected by the KWS in any jurisdiction as in 2.4
• All detected federal-aligned bounties are claimed when a target is destroyed in a system containing a Federal faction
• All detected Empire-aligned bounties are claimed when a target is destroyed in a system containing an Imperial jurisdiction
• All detected Alliance-aligned bounties are claimed when a target is destroyed in a system containing an Alliance jurisdiction
• All detected independent bounties are claimed when a target is destroyed in a system containing an independent jurisdiction*
• No bounties are claimed when a target is destroyed in an Anarchy jurisdiction or one with a Compromised Nav Beacon
• If a destroyed target ejects an Escape Pod (NPCs only) and this is scooped, then his bounties are claimed as if the kill took place in the system where the Escape Pod is delivered to authorities.
• KWS scan results for a target remain available/cached for a fixed period eg 5 minutes or until the target docks, even over hyperspace jumps. Eg if you scan a target in an Anarchy RES and then follow them to an Empire system, you still know about their bounties after jumping and can engage them legally immediately without re-scanning in that jurisdiction.

For lore reasons, we say that a representative faction has to be present in the system to recognise the kill and allow the bounty voucher to be awarded, but Anarchies/Compromised Nav Beacon systems do not transmit the required data.

In effect, this means that as a criminal, in most systems my risk extends to one superpower's bounties and my independent bounties. In some systems, two superpower minor factions are present.

As a bounty hunter, I am encouraged to track criminals between systems and pounce where I can provide evidence of a kill. The escape pod mechanism provides a way to score bounties from killing criminals in anarchies, for a little extra work.

* I am not convinced that treating Independents as one superpower for bounty purposes is the right thing to do yet, perhaps these bounties can only be claimed by a kill in the system where the Independent faction is based.