Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[-VR- Max Factor]

Frankly, the one and only "consequence" of new C&P for PVE is that now you have to go to IF in order to wipe that 500Cr bounty you've got for accidentally shooting a wanted pirate millisecond before basic scan finished.

Surely that depends on what you do in PvE. If you are a PvE pirate, then these consequences make the game far more interesting. You seem to be looking at things from one perspective only. As to that 500cr bounty, well, you should have waited until the scan completed, no issues there.
In live you can just go around killing stuff for your faction as you know you can get away with it, it will now not be that easy or consequence free as it was before.

Maybe you should open your eyes to all the other ways to play the game first.

 

[nrage]

Additionally, if detention centres *did* process all bounties the result would potentially be crippling, punishing Commanders too harshly for killing ships, even NPC ships, by forcing them to pay every bounty at once, especially considering that bounties will no longer expire.

True. So, what if .. in anarchy systems .. the KWS could only detect interstellar bounties. That is, the worst of the worst will be vulnerable to a KWS even in anarchies. Making them a little wary of being scanned by a hunter (which is great gameplay, right?). If scanned, even in an anarchy, they have to pay that interstellar bounty (because the KWS tags their escape pod and the authorities intercept it, or something).

 

[Rubbernuke]

That would be quite cool as well, in that if you prevent scans on your ship your notoriety drops much faster than if you are scanned frequently. It might mean that with a lower value and few scans you get less bounty hunters spawning after you (as they don't know where you are).

 

[aybkamen]

My suggestion, we have two different functions on KWS:

KW scan effects on legitimacy of attack:
When a ship with bounties is scanned, the bounty hunter is legitimated to attack the ship if
- We are in a Superpower jurisdiction and the target has any bounty for any faction aligned with this superpower
- We are in an Independant jurisdiction and the target has a bounty for the controlling faction
- We are in an Anarchy system

Plain and simple.

KWS bounty collected:
The bounty that will be collected depends on the Bount Hunter's configuration on the scanner. I propose having an option in the Functions Panel on the right with a selectable to select the KWS mode. The options will be
- EMPIRE
- FEDERATION
- ALLIANCE
- INDEPENDANT
- Controlling faction
- Highest Bounty
- Current controlling faction (if you are in a jurisdiction of Someone Inc, it will set Someone Inc as a filter, and it will remain to Someone Inc even if you change jurisdictions)
- Powerplay Power (?) (one for each)

The idea here is that you will collect just one bounty, but it will be from the selected mode.

This allows BH that hunt only for a superpower to gain rep with this superpower, by hunting wanted ships anywhere in the galaxy (even when becoming wanted in the different power for doing so)
This allows BH that want focus on a CG to select the faction they want to collect bounties for, and go around to hunt.


In a sense, this KWS mode is like a filter to apply to all bounties in the target, so only the selected kind of bounties are elegible. Then the highest bounty in the resulting list is collected.

What do you think?

 

[Ralph Vargr]

very concerned. Any qualititative/quantitative/anecdotal on this?

The systems I'm now hunting in may be support for Gennar's theory. Most of them have a *very* dominant controlling faction, with others in single digits.

Only by running constant missions for the small factions, in said systems, may be the only valid method of changing the smaller' faction's influence. Even then, ownership of the major shipyards will give the controlling faction ownership of both Park Place, and Boardwalk (with hotels).

 

[biohazard15]

Surely that depends on what you do in PvE. If you are a PvE pirate, then these consequences make the game far more interesting. You seem to be looking at things from one perspective only. As to that 500cr bounty, well, you should have waited until the scan completed, no issues there.
In live you can just go around killing stuff for your faction as you know you can get away with it, it will now not be that easy or consequence free as it was before.

Maybe you should open your eyes to all the other ways to play the game first.

Just like PVP, PVE piracy is dead, and will most likely stay so. It is overcomplicated with all these limpets and scanners and such, and offers almost no reward. The only people who try to make a living out of it are hardcore roleplayers, but even they eventually have to look elsewhere for money.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Please note that if KWS functionality is limited, the usefulness of entire classes of ships also are limited.

I am now using a nice DBS for faction rep gain. That small combat vessel will no longer be needed, it the KWS is not allowing me to gather rep in systems.

I will be selling engineered ships, as well as the KWS scanners they are mounted on. Only multi-role ships will be useful, to me, as I am primarily a trader and explorer. The small combat craft were used to gain rep, so that I could gain Allied status with *all* local factions for missions, trade, etc.

They will be need to be disposed of. They will generate more negative rep, than they benefit me.

One other thing: The Pirates Win. All pirate factions will slowly grow more hostile under the new system, as they are the ones most likely to initiate interdiction's.

All of space will become a "run away" zone, for non-combat commanders. This makes trading difficult.

Exploration may well be the only career left, after this.

 

[Rubbernuke]

One other thing: The Pirates Win. All pirate factions will slowly grow more hostile under the new system, as they are the ones most likely to initiate interdiction's.

All of space will become a "run away" zone, for non-combat commanders. This makes trading difficult.

Exploration may well be the only career left, after this.

As in space becomes actually dangerous with risk? Is that not a good thing?

 

[raymondo the great]

As in space becomes actually dangerous with risk? Is that not a good thing?

It would be good if they were making it more dangerous without trashing the ways to combat said danger

I'm all for them dialing up the interdiction frequency again from it's currently "stack 20 missions and maybe you'll get one if you are lucky" level, for making NPC ships tougher and engineered as standard at the higher tiers.

But none of that has much to do with the devs abysmal changes to the KWS or their pretty lame counter proposals we may get at some point this year *if we are lucky*

 

[ilo]

Sorry, I might need another review..

The KWS has been changed and now it can't be used to get all the bounties of criminal people, just because making a criminal paying his debt is TOO MUCH, even if the criminals don't give a damn about the KWS because they are criminals. Meanwhile, bounty hunters might not be able to kill a ship despite it has a bounty if they are not in the correct area of the galaxy.

Why would I want to use a KWS again?

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think I said this earlier- if criminals are going to get astronomical jail fees from multiple bounties (thus sorting out one perceived flaw of the KWS), make criminal activity pay wildly more as well.

This will:

Make criminals actually care about dying- if you were going to go bankrupt due to death, you are going to be more keen on living and being very wary of BH or scans. This automatically makes lawless areas more appealing.

Black markets and piracy should be x 100 more profitable- make clean traders sweat over the temptation.

Proper piracy should not be punished like murder. You should have fines for smuggling, assault fines (for limpets and non lethal violence) and murder bounties.

I don't see a problem if homicidal maniacs have to be ever more desperate to live and avoid being made penniless. I was a BGS homicidal maniac and wanted this to happen as you actually get consequences to actions.

If a criminal gets busted to 0 credits then since money is so easy to get it won't take them long to work up again.

 

[FrogsFriend]

....I'm all for them dialing up the interdiction frequency again from it's currently "stack 20 missions and maybe you'll get one if you are lucky" level, for making NPC ships tougher and engineered as standard at the higher tiers.
...

If I stack 20 missions I regularly get something like 60+ mission target interdictors. I wonder what we do differently?

 

[madbilly]

Hi Sandro,

You said that the KWS will be jurisdiction based. So, in anarchy systems, if there is a non-anarchy minor faction then can the KWS be used in zones under their jurisdiction to reveal bounties?

How does crime work in areas under jurisdiction of a faction that doesn't control the system? Is it impossible to get a bounty with any faction other than the one that controls the system? This will completely screw the BGS as it will be open season on the factions that don't control the system!

Why would independents at war with each other, or who have vastly different philosophies, sign an extradition treaty with each other (that's basically what we're talking about)? I know you have to make sure that super-power aligned factions aren't given an unfair BGS influence advantage against independents, and I like the idea of a return of Interpol from FFE, but I don't think this way makes sense. Why not just make bounties from independents much bigger than bounties from superpower aligned factions? This would make sense because the superpower-aligned factions rely on "big brother" looking after them to a certain extent, but the independents have to do this themselves.

Easiest way - just leave the KWS like it is in the current version and have the crim wake up at the detention centre of the faction/superpower which they had the highest bounty with. They have to pay off all bounties, which you say is "unfair", but such is the price of crime

 

[raymondo the great]

If I stack 20 missions I regularly get something like 60+ mission target interdictors. I wonder what we do differently?

Last time I got more than one interdiction on a run of multiple missions was...so long ago I really can't remember! there was a while it was reasonable and everyone was moaning it was too much "we just want to trade in peace" etc...personally I miss the old robigo days where if you had 20 missions you'd have at least 10 NPCs trying to interdict you every single jump...that was a long time ago now though

I mean I've given advice to people on the steam forums with 500+ hours who don't know the basics of how to not get interdicted while fuel scooping because they never had to learn...anyway getting a tad off topic, discussion for another day I think

 

[raymondo the great]

Easiest way - just leave the KWS like it is in the current version and have the crim wake up at the detention centre of the faction/superpower which they had the highest bounty with. They have to pay off all bounties, which you say is "unfair", but such is the price of crime

Exactly! And if the devs think that people with loads of crimes would get unreasonable bounties if killed there is a simple solution that doesn't involve trashing the KWS loads of more complicated stuff and enough handwavium to power a cruise ship! - Reduce the crime penalties!

I mean right now in live the penalty for murder at 5000c or whatever is way too low, now if the devs think what they've put it too could be too high then you know...reduce it a bit yeah? I mean wasn't that supposed to be the point of the beta? To work out where numbers like this should be at?

"Oh no we have to reprogram half the game because we set the murder bounties too high" seems an exceptionally warped way for them to try and defend these changes! Just mindboggling bad development choices!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Just like PVP, PVE piracy is dead, and will most likely stay so. It is overcomplicated with all these limpets and scanners and such, and offers almost no reward. The only people who try to make a living out of it are hardcore roleplayers, but even they eventually have to look elsewhere for money.

The rewards are being beefed up in 3.0 substantially. But I do agree about the limpet controllers, which they are looking at a solution which my come in 3.0 live. We will see.

 

[ilo]

Exactly! And if the devs think that people with loads of crimes would get unreasonable bounties if killed there is a simple solution that doesn't involve trashing the KWS loads of more complicated stuff and enough handwavium to power a cruise ship! - Reduce the crime penalties!

Didn't you attend the class the day we discussed the new crime and punishment??

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I'm about to start another trawl through this thread for another round of feedback (wish me luck), so in the meantime, I want to put something else out for you to chew over.

I really like this idea. Please do it

In more detail:
+ allows inter-superpower criminality
+ doesn't penalise independents
+ gives Anarchy a bit more interest as a controlling faction
+ allows collection of all relevant bounties for CGs
+ simplifies interstellar bounties
+ makes it (a little) harder to play both sides in border regions
+ provides more coherent law enforcement in Colonia
+ makes it much harder for criminals to evade justice with a single jump if they're in a superpower's core region

= gives big advantages to controlling system in border regions. Not sure how this will play out but it seems interesting.

- may make things even harder for non-controlling Anarchy factions. (Consider having them treat all kills of their ships as murder for rep purposes? They can't issue a bounty but they can declare you hostile in short order)

 

[Moesis]

I think I said this earlier- if criminals are going to get astronomical jail fees from multiple bounties (thus sorting out one perceived flaw of the KWS), make criminal activity pay wildly more as well.

This will:

Make criminals actually care about dying- if you were going to go bankrupt due to death, you are going to be more keen on living and being very wary of BH or scans. This automatically makes lawless areas more appealing.

Black markets and piracy should be x 100 more profitable- make clean traders sweat over the temptation.

Proper piracy should not be punished like murder. You should have fines for smuggling, assault fines (for limpets and non lethal violence) and murder bounties.

I don't see a problem if homicidal maniacs have to be ever more desperate to live and avoid being made penniless. I was a BGS homicidal maniac and wanted this to happen as you actually get consequences to actions.

If a criminal gets busted to 0 credits then since money is so easy to get it won't take them long to work up again.

I agree with some of this. IMO Illegal stuff should be more profitable, only that is unfortunately something which is to be considered and to be looked at later.

Smuggling IMO should actually be more risky, so a bounty (like with Wanted Passengers), just like assault and attempted theft (hatch-breakers) currently are but the amounts shouldn't be in any way comparable to murder, and thus would be much easier to pay. (which the New C&P kind of manages to do by adding in ship value components to the equation, which only apply in the event of murder, in theory anyway as beta never actually worked properly in this regard apparently).

Keeping bounties (or changing them to bounties in the case of smuggling) would actually be a reason to make them more profitable, if you turn them into fines, why should they become more profitable, well, I suppose piracy actually should even if it was only fines because it's in a ridiculous state ATM, but it would also mean victims can't defend themselves, hence it's a bounty which is what it should be.

Murder is really the only thing that will get you those astronomical jail fees, and quite frankly I don't see how this should be a problem which affects the KWS.

The problem with the current KWS mechanic in the new C&P system, IMO has nothing to do with the BGS like some said in this thread, It seems to me that the problem is purely based on collecting bounties in jurisdictions where criminals are not going to be detained (i.e. Anarchies) which would kind of be exploitable (since the criminal wouldn't have to pay any penalties other than ship rebuy, while the BH gets paid bounties). Hence FD's latest suggestion of KWS not doing anything in Anarchies.

Part of this issue is based on the presumption that Anarchies are where criminals are safe, but I tend to think Anarchies are just supposed to be dangerous for both criminals and non criminals alike (no honor among thieves and all that).

The only way an anarchy is safe is that you can attack anyone without actually accruing a bounty, it shouldn't be that you can't be busted by some BH that followed/found you there, you should be safe from ATR, and Cops, that should be it. Other pirates should still attack you and perhaps an interesting mechanic could be that Pirates in anarchies would prioritize attacking those using/having a KWS because they are an extension of the law (while not actually being the law), because a KWS could force them to pay the penalties (kind of a you were KW Scanned, thus you're escape capsule is scooped by the BH and taken to appropriate area, since we can't actually do the scooping of said capsule or capture criminals other than kill them, this would unfortunately be automatic).

But the real issue I have with this KWS nerf is that seemingly, what has been forgotten is that it's incredibly easy to not be wanted anywhere since bounties are to be attached to individual ships and will no longer be attached to commanders. So really if a criminal is dumb enough to use the same hot ship for everything and never change it, don't they deserve to go broke ?, all they have to do is fly a clean ship and they will be untouchable anyway, as the KWS scans won't be able to detect much on a clean ship.

TLDR:
Keep KWS as they are, criminals only have to change to a clean ship to be untouchable anyway.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I think I said this earlier- if criminals are going to get astronomical jail fees from multiple bounties (thus sorting out one perceived flaw of the KWS), make criminal activity pay wildly more as well.

This will:

Make criminals actually care about dying- if you were going to go bankrupt due to death, you are going to be more keen on living and being very wary of BH or scans. This automatically makes lawless areas more appealing.

Black markets and piracy should be x 100 more profitable- make clean traders sweat over the temptation.

Proper piracy should not be punished like murder. You should have fines for smuggling, assault fines (for limpets and non lethal violence) and murder bounties.

I don't see a problem if homicidal maniacs have to be ever more desperate to live and avoid being made penniless. I was a BGS homicidal maniac and wanted this to happen as you actually get consequences to actions.

If a criminal gets busted to 0 credits then since money is so easy to get it won't take them long to work up again.

I don't play in Open, and I don't play the BGS.

As a trader/explorer, this is lose/lose.

As for being entertained, I get less of a rush, and more of a blood pressure increase nowadays, thank you very much. No, the game should not be risk-free. It should also be fun- and constant pirate interdiction's are not fun.