Sounds good to me. I haven't had time to think up any counters, but the initial idea grants the KWS some good power.
As long as we can see when we have a bounty or at-risk from being scanned in a jurisdiction, it's all good.
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback
- Thread starter Sandro Sammarco
- Start date
Sounds good to me. I haven't had time to think up any counters, but the initial idea grants the KWS some good power.
As long as we can see when we have a bounty or at-risk from being scanned in a jurisdiction, it's all good.
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
It doesn't appear to me as failure.
Citation needed.
It seems proposal is an offering to mitigate changes fro PvE so they aren't ignored. But things will change. I thought we understood change is something you can't avoid in ED.
That's really not a flaw. You described *why* in your opinion it is flawed. You didn't described *how* it is flawed.
Fair enough
From my POV it seems offering seems to try to have reasonable replacement for current KWS PvE gameplay. As for reputation...it is interesting side effect. But I suspect new system also will have something interesting to offer.
As always I just wish it was less dramatic.
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Sandro, thanks for the feedback.
I can understand why the current KWS functionality doesn't work on Players with the upcoming C&P system, but would add that I believe using it on Players is a fairly niche activity.
I can't see an obvious way to keep both it's existing functionality against NPCs for roleplaying and BGS work, and it's new functionality against Players, without having it function in two different ways depending if it's pointed at a Player or an NPC. Having dual functions looks like a recipe for player confusion.
As to the proposed changes:
1. This probably addresses the money-making aspect sufficiently, and partially the roleplaying aspect.
2. Being able to legitimately attack ships wanted in other systems sounds like a good idea.
3. An extension of No1 really and seems ok.
Overall though, it doesn't greatly help with collecting Bounties on non-controlling Factions in a system, especially if they're Independent, which I assume is around a third of all Factions.
Proposed amendment: Have it detect all bounties in that system, even if for Factions not aligned to the controlling Faction's superpower. This doesn't completely cure the Independent problem but moves in the right direction.
I can understand why the current KWS functionality doesn't work on Players with the upcoming C&P system, but would add that I believe using it on Players is a fairly niche activity.
I can't see an obvious way to keep both it's existing functionality against NPCs for roleplaying and BGS work, and it's new functionality against Players, without having it function in two different ways depending if it's pointed at a Player or an NPC. Having dual functions looks like a recipe for player confusion.
As to the proposed changes:
1. This probably addresses the money-making aspect sufficiently, and partially the roleplaying aspect.
2. Being able to legitimately attack ships wanted in other systems sounds like a good idea.
3. An extension of No1 really and seems ok.
Overall though, it doesn't greatly help with collecting Bounties on non-controlling Factions in a system, especially if they're Independent, which I assume is around a third of all Factions.
Proposed amendment: Have it detect all bounties in that system, even if for Factions not aligned to the controlling Faction's superpower. This doesn't completely cure the Independent problem but moves in the right direction.
No it really doesn't
The only "conflict" is that the devs don't want it to work like that
Spouting a one line response the devs gave to this a few weeks ago really doesn't aid this discussion at all, even if you support the changes. As a coder "incompatible" is an excuse I have occasionally used in the past to fob off clients because I couldn't be bothered to do what they were asking, and I suspect it's no more than that, the devs changed stuff that didn't need changing and just don't feel like changing it back!
As long as the KWS detects ALL local bounties (i.e. every bounty issued by every faction in the system I am currently in), then I find the change to be acceptable.
I use the KWS in PvE bounty hunting to interact with the BGS and also maintain my personal reputation with all minor factions. I NEED every bounty for every minor faction in the system I make the kill in, whether it's independent, imperial, fed, alliance, whatever. I think that's what you're saying the proposed change will bring back, based on the third bullet point.
I use the KWS in PvE bounty hunting to interact with the BGS and also maintain my personal reputation with all minor factions. I NEED every bounty for every minor faction in the system I make the kill in, whether it's independent, imperial, fed, alliance, whatever. I think that's what you're saying the proposed change will bring back, based on the third bullet point.
Unless you have strong evidence that developers should change their opinion, it seems they are very convinced they should go with redesign. Prior this Sandro proposal I also had mixed feelings about KWS, these changes bring considerable variety in this. As for new way being incompatible - I think Sandro stream comment on KWS was spot on, but I might be wrong of course.
It might require some future tweaks and improvements, but it is good start as long as it is for 3.0.
It is my turn to be confused
You claim bounties you detect.
it's not just the money. If you want to affect the background sim at the moment a KWS lets you pick and choose which bounties you want to hand in and which to scrap, so that you can affect the influence of the system you wish to increase/decrease.
With the new KWS system, you basically will not be able to use a KWS to affect the background sim unless you happen to luck out and the faction you want to affect happens to have the highest bounty.
Will completely remove one way players can interact with Background sim.
With the new KWS system, you basically will not be able to use a KWS to affect the background sim unless you happen to luck out and the faction you want to affect happens to have the highest bounty.
Will completely remove one way players can interact with Background sim.
Thats not the point
You want to defend the redesign be my guest...I think it's daft, overly complicated and won't do what the devs think it will but fine... but to say that the way the live KWS works is "incompatible" or "conflicts" with the current system is simply wrong. It could gather all bounties on a target if they wanted. It's not incompatible. It's a choice! Defend the choice! Don't use pseudo technobabble to try and pretend it wasn't a deliberate choice!
Because at the end of the day Sandros proposal proves it was "a choice" and not a conflict/compatibility issue!
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How exactly is it mitigating changes for PvE when the entire core concept of the KWS was for PvE to earn bounties across all jusridictions!!
Please, there is no defending the indefensible !
This is a nerf to PvE.
Sandro said:
Nerf !!
Most of the criticism I've seen mostly relates to the KWS bringing a reduced payout in comparison to what we've had to date. However, as that reduction comes about because the C&P system is being made more sophisticated, I don't think that's a very legitimate gripe and I don't think NPC's being non persistent currently makes that concern legitimate either.
My assumption is that NPC's will have - similar to human players - local, major faction and interstellar bounties attached? (ie. in the new system, whatever it turns out to be, PvE is treated the same way as PvP). If that's the case then the OP improves the situation and I think does bring the Kill Warrant Scanners closer to its original specification. I feel pretty confident that if people find they're not earning as much per hour in PvE bounty hunting that's (a) not the biggest issue in the world and (b) maybe NPC rep + bounties can be tweaked up to match the reduction. Whatever happens it's same for everyone and I far, far prefer the more sophisticated C&P system.
My assumption is that NPC's will have - similar to human players - local, major faction and interstellar bounties attached? (ie. in the new system, whatever it turns out to be, PvE is treated the same way as PvP). If that's the case then the OP improves the situation and I think does bring the Kill Warrant Scanners closer to its original specification. I feel pretty confident that if people find they're not earning as much per hour in PvE bounty hunting that's (a) not the biggest issue in the world and (b) maybe NPC rep + bounties can be tweaked up to match the reduction. Whatever happens it's same for everyone and I far, far prefer the more sophisticated C&P system.
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rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
There is none. It's a conclusion based on observation. Please, I know that you know what I mean perfectly fine. I am not falling for the bait
Yes, this is true. It will mitigate them to a degree - I'd like to test it though and see how it behaves "in real life" before making that opinion.
Well, as it currently stand I don't think there is anything to counter this change to rep gain in the new system. Feel free to prove me wrong!
Perhaps at some point those who've spent weeks insisting there was no nerf will apologise now the devs have admitted there is a nerf?
I won't hold my breath...most seemed to have already moved on to their next line of defence completly ignoring that they have been shown to be wrong already!
New system tries to tie bounties to factions and superpowers. Giving player all bounties via KWS contradicts that.
New system ties bounties to a ship. Again, all bounties via KWS would contradict that (but I guess it is not what you postulate there).
It is design *decision*. So far what Sandro have said sounds legit - *to me*. You can disagree, as always. In developer's mind it was an issue and they offered solution, and then updated that solution taking our feedback into account.
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So the entire PvE community should just roll-ever because for you it's just dandy?
I'd hazard, the majority of the Solo/PG community won't be impacted by the new C&P PvP system, yet, we're being nerfed because of something we have no interest in?
This is exactly how games die.
The changes are not to address the money making, but to address the money losing if a player gets scanned and caught. I still have mixed feelings about it so I'd not answer but I just wanted to hop by and thank sandro for giving the concerned people an opportunity to discuss the change, please, pay attention to what they say!!
How is nerfing the PvE bounty system 'legit' ??
I challenge you to explain that.
You mean the majority of Solo/PG community being space cops.. because I'm sure there are some Solo/PG players that act on the other side of the law that would find the change affecting them.
It is my turn to be confused
You claim bounties you detect.
Yes, and you seemed to be saying that it's function had changed because detecting (and therefore claiming) certain bounties in remote systems would somehow be a bad thing.
Seriously I can't see why any change is needed for that module at all, at this point I really feel like someone needs to sit me down and explain it to me like I'm a five year old.[where is it]