Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[raymondo the great]

I don't think you can say that unless you have a very deep insight into how things are counted. For all we know the old system is completely rewritten to accommodate the new C&P system and old system wouldn't work any more, even if you wanted it to.

Instinctively I wouldn't want to use two systems either anyway though. In fact two systems like a REALLY BAD idea to me - a bug fest. Better to use the same C&P system for both .. and if necessary adjust influence + cred score generated on NPC's to reflect the fact they're not persistent like players are .. and adjust for the PvE gameplaying fact that a KWS scanned NPC has X% fewer bounties on it in Beyond Chapter 1. If each bounty pays X% more though, then what's the diff?

What I think IS a fair point is that local faction influence changes should be a yellow flag, just to double check that killing NPC's doesn't have unduly bigger effect on the BGS than killing players does, and vice versa.

So what you are saying is the system redesign for crime and punishement (which is already overcomplicated and all most wanted was bigger fines and tougher cops) somehow prevents the KWS looking up all bounties stored on a DB for someone/NPC?

Because if that is what you are saying that would be insanely bad! That would be a monumental design failure from the devs....

Me I chose to believe it's choice by the devs mixed in with a bit of ignorance of how people use the KWS...but if you want to say it's because the devs messed it up so much what should be a simple SQL query is now impossible then far be it from me to get in the way!

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I have a feeling that Frontier are of the opinion that for too long, the BGS (which is entirely PvE based!) has been far too easily and quickly affected by way of committing crimes against NPC's. This seems to be an effective way of slowing down BGS influence by way of NPC murder.

You may be right.

If that's true, then the KWS is dead, anyway. Few will stick with a crippled gameplay tool.

Basic rule in politics: Do Not Take Away What People Already Have.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Not sure what's your gripe here. It seems Sandro position this as you just can't get clean ship with dying once. You don't get from the hook so easily. That's why you can peal bounties off the player one by one. But still....even let's say you get a hit on wanted ship and bring him down - he is moved lots of light years away. And it is someone who just obsessed to hunt you due of your many bounties - he will have to find you again. So putting distance between players will also bring some cool down.

My beef is that an almost entirely PvE exclusive piece of kit has been entirely nerfed for what is very much an edge PvP use case.

I honestly don't give a monkeys about what happens at Detention Centres, but the point stands that if you want an excuse to harass players, hang around the systems within jump range of detention centers, and you'll be in the most target rich environment. Given that there are no actual bounty hunting tools to locate and track criminals, this will happen.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

So what you are saying is the system redesign for crime and punishement (which is already overcomplicated and all most wanted was bigger fines and tougher cops) somehow prevents the KWS looking up all bounties stored on a DB for someone/NPC?

Because if that is what you are saying that would be insanely bad! That would be a monumental design failure from the devs....

Me I chose to believe it's choice by the devs mixed in with a bit of ignorance of how people use the KWS...but if you want to say it's because the devs messed it up so much what should be a simple SQL query is now impossible then far be it from me to get in the way!

The new C&P system is far more simple then the current. Not too sure why yo find it difficult. Looks simple to me.

 

[CmdrWill]

Hi Sandro......this is still stuck in pvp mode! ED is a predominantly PVE game! For the PVP griefers it works well, but the vast majority of us who want to dodge these players use private groups like Mobius (huge now) or solo, this just doesn’t fix it!

 

[Speccy]

Is this going to delay the release of 3.0?

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Maybe this is a bigger issue than i'm thinking, but not something i feel is as big as the credit side one.

And, there, we have our worldview schism.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Is this going to delay the release of 3.0?

Quite unlikely.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

It seems to me that two separate processes are being conflated as one when there is no need to combine them.

The Bounty Hunter doesn't care what happens to a player after their revival at the detention center.
All they know is that they were wanted in X number of systems, and they killed the target on behalf of all of them.

The big risk of your proposal about only clearing one bounty at the Detention Center, is that these locations just become base camps for griefers pretending to bounty hunt.
Any player trying to leave will likely still have bounties on them, potentially leading to repeated kills on them until they mode switch or all the bounties get claimed. This behaviour which would be seen a harassment at the moment would be vindicated by your proposal.

Basically, you've created the worst of both worlds.

For PvE, you've nerfed both an income and reputation source, as well as a driver to travel around cashing in your claims.
For PvP, you've created spawn points and justified repeated griefing.

Words to be heard. Well said.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Hi Sandro......this is still stuck in pvp mode! ED is a predominantly PVE game! For the PVP griefers it works well, but the vast majority of us who want to dodge these players use private groups like Mobius (huge now) or solo, this just doesn’t fix it!

How. It will now be easier to claim bounties as long as your are in the same superpower jurisdiction. Sure the amount may be slightly lower, but you should see more ships to take down and you won't get a bounty for doing so if you are not in that faction jurisdiction.

The only thing we need is to be able to use the KWS in supercruise so we can scan before we interdict.

It seems to me that two separate processes are being conflated as one when there is no need to combine them.

The Bounty Hunter doesn't care what happens to a player after their revival at the detention center.
All they know is that they were wanted in X number of systems, and they killed the target on behalf of all of them.

The big risk of your proposal about only clearing one bounty at the Detention Center, is that these locations just become base camps for griefers pretending to bounty hunt.
Any player trying to leave will likely still have bounties on them, potentially leading to repeated kills on them until they mode switch or all the bounties get claimed. This behaviour which would be seen a harassment at the moment would be vindicated by your proposal.

Basically, you've created the worst of both worlds.

For PvE, you've nerfed both an income and reputation source, as well as a driver to travel around cashing in your claims.
For PvP, you've created spawn points and justified repeated griefing.

Not possible as when you leave a detention centre you are in solo, so there will be no other players around.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

How. It will now be easier to claim bounties as long as your are in the same superpower jurisdiction. Sure the amount may be slightly lower, but you should see more ships to take down and you won't get a bounty for doing so if you are not in that faction jurisdiction.

The only thing we need is to be able to use the KWS in supercruise so we can scan before we interdict.

How many Clean NPCs have secondary bounties at the moment?
Does anyone bother scanning them to find out?

I think that suggestion is primarily oriented towards PvP yet again.
An entirely wasted effort because PvPers don't even use a KWS anyway.

 

[Turjan]

The very first time I saw a KWS I expected that it would allow me to scan ostensibly Clean NPC ships to see if they had a hidden bounty...and then if they had, I'd have the right to blow the crap out of them there and then because, you know, I'd bought a Kill Warrant Scanner right? And I was a member of the prestigious Pilots' Federation. So...shouldn't that KWS give me a warrant to discover criminals and shoot them?

Like a sort of galactic FBI agent who can cross jurisdictions to claim a bounty. Because I'm a member of the Pilots' Federation, a CMDR, and not a local beat cop. That's got to count for something, surely?

But...no. Pretty much its entire purpose was just to let me see if a guy who I already knew was wanted turned out to be even more wanted.

Until now apparently, when the idea of actually legitimising attacks based on KWS results pops up as a proposed add-on feature. And I'd welcome that change...were it not for the fact that it comes as part of a grab bag of bizarre changes (mostly fringe case ones involving PvP) that seem to be adding ever greater layers of numerical complexity to an already complicated system.

I'm afraid it's reaching the point for me that an awful lot of the changes in 3.0 just feel like this now :

[video=youtube_share;y6QgHUJIQ5Q]https://youtu.be/y6QgHUJIQ5Q [/video]

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

How many Clean NPCs have secondary bounties at the moment?
Does anyone bother scanning them to find out?

I think that suggestion is primarily oriented towards PvP yet again.
An entirely wasted effort because PvPers don't even use a KWS anyway.

Exactly. We never bothered with a KWS, now it will have a use. I am a PvE player and see this as a step forward then the version in beta as the KWS now has a use. I never bothered with one in live version.

But we do need to be able to use it in supercruise to make it more effective.

 

[Martind Forlon]

How many Clean NPCs have secondary bounties at the moment?
Does anyone bother scanning them to find out?

I think that suggestion is primarily oriented towards PvP yet again.

No it isn't. New C&P will affect also solo players and rightfully so, dunno why ppl still think it's primarily for pvp. Revealing 'hidden' bounties on 1st look clean NPCs (WITH permission to LEGALLY attack them!) can be very interesting thing ...

 

[Marcus Tullius]

I cannot see any necessity of changing present KVS but removing the opportunity to use it for gaining reputation with factions thus increasing the grind. No more bounty hunting for unlocking permit locked systems ladies: "resistance is useless!". Sandro will throw tons of dust in our eyes about PvP issues, but will remain totally blind for 23441212352 posts in this thread related to reputation with factions. Guess what the main goal of KVS 3.0 changes is. "RESISTANCE IS USELESS!"

 

[Alec Turner]

The very first time I saw a KWS I expected that it would allow me to scan ostensibly Clean NPC ships to see if they had a hidden bounty...and then if they had, I'd have the right to blow the crap out of them there and then because, you know, I'd bought a Kill Warrant Scanner right? And I was a member of the prestigious Pilots' Federation. So...shouldn't that KWS give me a warrant to discover criminals and shoot them?

Like a sort of galactic FBI agent who can cross jurisdictions to claim a bounty. Because I'm a member of the Pilots' Federation, a CMDR, and not a local beat cop. That's got to count for something, surely?

But...no. Pretty much its entire purpose was just to let me see if a guy who I already knew was wanted turned out to be even more wanted.

Until now apparently, when the idea of actually legitimising attacks based on KWS results pops up as a proposed add-on feature. And I'd welcome that change...were it not for the fact that it comes as part of a grab bag of bizarre changes (mostly fringe case ones involving PvP) that seem to be adding ever greater layers of numerical complexity to an already complicated system.

I'm afraid it's reaching the point for me that an awful lot of the changes in 3.0 just feel like this now :

https://youtu.be/y6QgHUJIQ5Q

"Don't get out ya' pram mate, I'm tryin' to do ya a favour!"

LMFAO

Funny and Accurate - you just won the internet!

 

[Kurgol]

So now, over to you. Do you think this proposal give the KWS enough kick? Does it punish/threaten criminals too much? Is the mechanic clear enough? In short, have a gander and tell us what you think. A final reminder, this is just a suggestion that we're looking at, not a definite plan.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

Maybe any kind of repsonse on the fears of people who use kws to affect background sim/repuration rather than just spouting over and over and over again how the change won't affect income.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Exactly. We never bothered with a KWS, now it will have a use. I am a PvE player and see this as a step forward then the version in beta as the KWS now has a use. I never bothered with one in live version.

But we do need to be able to use it in supercruise to make it more effective.

No it isn't. New C&P will affect also solo players and rightfully so, dunno why ppl still think it's primarily for pvp. Revealing 'hidden' bounties on 1st look clean NPCs (WITH permission to LEGALLY attack them!) can be very interesting thing ...

I see the potential, but I question whether it actually exists.

NPCs come in very few flavours. I'd be genuinely surprised if more than a small percentage of Clean types are Wanted anywhere else, making it questionable whether scanning Clean ships is worthwhile.

Agreed that more detailed scanning needs to be available in SC. Manifest scanning for example would be much more useful.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Maybe I'm crazy or something, but as I see the KWS changes, as primarily a PvE BGS player:

Old System:

I can be as nasty as I want to be against the NPCs in a Federal system, break all sorts of laws, massacre millions, and when I jump into another Federation system I'm friendly with, as long as I've been sweetness and light to other Federal factions, I'll be fed the fatted lamb when I dock. This is extremely boring, because there is no NPC Sherlock Holmes to my Moriarty. Instead, I get the Keystone Cops.

Beta System:

I can be a bit of a law breaker against the NPCs in a Federal system, break a few laws, kill a few people, and when I jump into another Federation system I'm friendly with, I'll be fed the fatted lamb as long as total Federation bounty is low. An improvement over the old system, but still relatively easy to evade. The Authorities have graduated to Deputy Cletus levels of competency.

Proposed System:

I can still be a bit of a law breaker against the NPCs in a Federal system, break a few laws, kill a few people, but when I jump into another Federation controlled system, I better evade the authorities, bounty hunters, and the like. If they successfully do a KWS against me (I assume authority ships are equipped with them), I get a big fat target painted on my ship. Instead of the fatted lamb, I get fed great quantities of munitions. If I want to switch ships within Federation space, I need to find an independently controlled system or station to base my operations out of. This is a huge improvement over the Beta system. The Authorities are now actually adequate at their job, at least as far as it pertains to C&P. The Reputation system is still far too easy to manipulate IMO.

 

[rootsrat]

Not sure what's your gripe here. It seems Sandro position this as you just can't get clean ship with dying once. You don't get from the hook so easily. That's why you can peal bounties off the player one by one. But still....even let's say you get a hit on wanted ship and bring him down - he is moved lots of light years away. And it is someone who just obsessed to hunt you due of your many bounties - he will have to find you again. So putting distance between players will also bring some cool down.

Yeah, pros and cons. This post actually made me like the current proposal as a reasonable compromise for all the parties.