Keep them all. I like having the chance of meeting Legacy weapons somewhere in the Galaxy. Makes it interesting.
An honest question:
Why do people think legacy mods are a big issue?
Personally, I'm not seeing a problem.:S
Why do people think legacy mods are a big issue?
Personally, I'm not seeing a problem.:S
If you lot get to keep your modules then i want my old ADS module back.
I don't want any of mine back. I've just caught up with DW2, and not having to honk/jump anymore is so much better. I did a lot of exploring previously, and after a while of jump/honking, I always needed a break. The new system is so much better. I can see myself getting bored of the surface scanning, but as I've only surface scanned one planet so far, I think that's a while away.
Why? If they currently provide at least a different alternative to the current (and generally much more powerful) Engineering blueprints, then why not use what you have in your inventory?
That's nonsense, the new Engineering system blueprints are far more powerful than the prior legacy mods. The legacy mods, however, are important for certain ship builds and removing them completely will "break" those prior builds without any compensation for the hundreds of hours some players have put into Engineering under the prior system.
There is no "fair" way to do this because obtaining certain mods with specific secondary effects took literally hundreds of hours for some players. FD has no intention of "compensating" players for this time, the best they have offered is a conversion to G4 which is frankly insulting given how much effort it took to obtain G5 mats under the prior Engineering system. FD has set up a situation where the new Engineering system is only accessible to those players if they want to re-grind all of their G5 rolls under the new system (typically 8-9 G5 rolls to max out the new G5 blueprints) and FD expects players to do this all over again for older modules.
This makes no sense and is a ridiculous suggestion. I play exclusively in Open but the vast majority of what I use my ships for is PVE and I have Engineered them accordingly. This includes certain secondary effects for legacy mods which are necessary to get my ships working properly with power capacity, power draw, weight, jump range and so on. There are many players who also play in Open and use legacy mods for non-combat activities as well, i.e., trading and exploration.
The only "unfair" part of the current situation is that a straight G5 to G5 conversion is not being offered for legacy mods that have previously required dozens of G5 rolls under the old Engineering system to obtain certain effects. Some legacy mods may provide a slight advantage in some areas, i.e., weight or power draw or other secondary effects, but this is only really relevant for PVE and does not change the fact that the new Engineering blueprints are far more powerful than the older blueprints. New players have a "guaranteed" path to max out their modules under the new system that was not available to players using the older system and that prior effort is completely devalued with a conversion of legacy mods to the G4 range.
Yes, leave legacy mods exactly as they are. FD knew they couldn't remove them or many of the older players would leave the game completely when their carefully Engineered builds no longer worked properly. They had the option to offer optional conversion over to the G5 system at an equivalent grade, i.e., G5 to G5 conversion, but they refused to offer this to players and had to leave the legacy mods themselves unchanged.
That makes no difference whasoever, there are many players such as myself who still use legacy mods almost exclusively on most of their ships. The vast majority of my 30 Engineered ships use almost entirely legacy mods, other than some grade 1 PP mods I generated using the new system. I have only two ships (Mamba and Adder) which use modules which have been Engineered almost entirely with the new system but even they still rely on certain weapons with legacy mods to make their current builds work properly. I have a large stockpile of legacy weapons and other modules which are perfectly suitable for PVE activities that I do not want to re-roll and many other players are in the same situation.
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Wot he sed!
Really? Well thats ok thats why its called legacy modules, you will be able to sell yours.
I don't have any legacy mods left as the new system gave better results (lucky me). I am in agreement with these staying though. This argument is a bit like removing credits from everyone who got their money doing Sothis runs and other metas which have since been nerfed (actually it's worse- engineering back then was used as intended). Those with legacy mods were there working with a bad system and put time in to make it work. That shouldn't be taken away.
Addionally I don't know how a mats repayment would work. How do you repay 600 rerolls (or was it 50, or 500, or 700, someone's going to have to go back through the logs - not going to happen - if this is to be fair)?
Addionally I don't know how a mats repayment would work. How do you repay 600 rerolls (or was it 50, or 500, or 700, someone's going to have to go back through the logs - not going to happen - if this is to be fair)?
Or are you saying you think it's time my legacy modules went?
All of them.
Legacy modules also have an easy and obvious fix. Not so much for most other issues.
The one where some people have access to equipment that no one else ever will, and thus have certain advantages in certain tasks.
The game changes and evolves, some things get depreciated. Better to focus on making sure the end result is balanced than trying to compensate people for whatever they may have spent in the pursuit of advantages under past systems.
I have ~5000 G5 rolls and I could get all the G5 modules my CMDR currently owns have with less than a fifth of that. I've sold or rolled over many hundreds of such modules and still have a couple dozen legacy modules that cannot be duplicated in the new system. They should all be forcibly converted.
Yep.
I agree some legacy seem to have had better rolls than the new ones - shields for instance, the famous size 5 Cutter shield is an example - but the majority of new rolls are better.
But I had to work hard for these rolls.
Being forced into a change I would rage quit the game.
Hence please don't suggest such an unreasonable (s...) idea ..
Blunt and open.
o7
Far more reasonable for a few players to quit than to allow grandfathered imbalances to persist, IMO.
Everyone should be playing by the same rules.
Because they allow those that have them to play by a different set of rules from everyone else.
My CMDR is using a D8 sensor module that weighs just under 12 tons. No one that didn't already have one of these modules can make an equivalent one, and thus there will be systems my CMDR could conceivably reach that will be forever beyond any CMDR without similarly advantageous legacy modules.
Nothing I could possibly have done in game entitles me to play by a more advantageous set of rules. Of course, I'm not going to voluntarily surrender the modules as long as using them is within the bounds of the rules, but I will strongly advocate that the rules be changed to put everyone on the same page.
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This already exists in the game and has been present since before the game launched. It is not limited to legacy mods and FD clearly has no problem with certain benefits being exclusive and restricted to a certain time period.
If you purchased the game after the alpha and beta you couldn't obtain the reduced rebuy costs which were 2.5% insurance premiums (alpha) or 3.75% insurance premiums (beta) compared to the 5% standard insurance premiums. This is quite substantial for large ships and is a significant in-game advantage that cannot be gained by any other means after the game launched.
If you purchased the game after the first year you cannot get the Cobra IV. The ship has the best internal slots in the game among all of the small pad ships and is particularly useful for roles that require or benefit from a large number of optional internal slots, such as exploration or mining, and it can also be effective at combat or trading when necessary.
If you started playing the game after the start of Season 3 (over 3 years after the game launched) then you cannot obtain certain secondary effects which were present on legacy modules. These mods can no longer be produced and in some cases provide certain benefits that can no longer be duplicated under the new system, although overall the new Engineering blueprint ranges are considerably more powerful than what could be obtained previously. The advantages of legacy mods are primarily for PVE activities rather than being competitive in PVP under the new system.
FD has already shown that they are fine with certain players having advantages by purchasing the game earlier than newer players. Legacy mods generally provide only minor changes and overall are considerably less powerful than the current Engineering blueprints. They also required a significant amount of time and effort to be invested to obtain those results, often dozens or hundreds of Engineering rolls. If FD is fine with players having access to something simply for purchasing the game earlier than new players then it makes no sense for them to take away legacy mods, especially given that these mods were earned in-game rather than simply being handed out for purchasing the game before a certain point in time. FD realized that trying to remove legacy mods from the game, or to forcibly convert them to something that no longer worked the way it did when the mods were generated, would not be acceptable to the playerbase as it would invalidate all of that Engineering work that occurred over nearly 2 years while the prior Engineering system was in place.
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This, I'm afraid.
I'd miss my 80Ly AspX and my 1000m/s (or whatever it is) Viper but I'd accept it to get rid of the situation where nobody will ever be able to create weapons and defences that can match the ones some people already have.
To be clear, I wouldn't want to see legacy modules just vanish from the game.
They'd just need to be "shaved" to they comply with the current paradigm.
"If X>5 then X=5"
Not sure if there'd be a way to transfer XFX across to the new system, though.
I suspect that'd be something that people would just have to take on the chin.
Let's face it, though, the mat's that get used to apply XFX are rarely, erm, rare ones, it's usually stuff people have a heap of and you only have to apply it once so it's not the end of the world.
We already had this discussion, and FD decided they would create a situation where the new blueprints were dramatically better than the prior Engineering blueprints to "encourage" everyone to re-grind and thereby devalue that prior work. I discussed all of this in detail in a thread I started during the 3.0 beta:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...aximums-in-3-0-Makes-Previous-Grind-Worthless
The current conversion system that "converts" all of that work into a G4 mod without any experimental effect is laughable considering all the effort that was put into them and that is why so many players still use their legacy mods for PVE activities. FD clearly hoped that players would blindly repeat the same grind all over again to "level up" their gear but they obviously underestimate the willingness for players to actually do that after using the prior Engineering system for nearly 2 years. Instead of creating a situation where players could choose between keeping their legacy mods, or converting to G5 as an option, FD decided we would choose between keeping our legacy mods or having all that progress set back to G4 without any experimental effects. That isn't much of a choice for most players which is why FD had to leave the legacy mods in place or risk losing many of those players from the game.
Of course there is a way to do this, you simply carry over the experimental effect. FD remapped all of the blueprints several times with the prior system and applied those changes retroactively to existing mods. That is how we had incendiary multicannons nerfed several times with old mods being carried over to the new equivalents. Why would you think that doing exactly the same thing to bring an experimental effect forward into the new system would somehow be difficult in any way? It was a deliberate choice by FD to not carry over experimental effects during conversion of legacy mods, not some sort of technical issue.
Seriously? We've already "taken it on the chin" with the legacy modules being far less powerful than the current Engineering maximums. To lose the experimental effects as well is just adding insult to injury here and was a deliberate choice made by FD.
It's not just the mats themselves, which aren't actually trivial to gather, it's also the time invested to actually Engineer the modules. You do realize that you can't apply experimental effects remotely, right? That means flying around with those modules, or transferring them, to each individual Engineer to reapply the secondary effects. That is dozens of hours just in travel and wait time alone, even if you already have all of the mats in your inventory.
Sorry but FD made their decision to keep legacy mods in the game and offer a ridiculously pathetic conversion "option" that basically no one would want to take. The best that FD can do at this point to reduce the number of legacy mods in circulation is to offer a reasonable conversion, i.e., G5 to G5 with experimental effects being carried over into the new system. Anything less is not worth converting. Even if they offered a reasonable conversion option it would still need to be entirely optional given how many players currently have large numbers of ships using legacy mods who do not want to "break" their existing builds by losing the legacy mod secondary effects.
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I personally don't think requiring conversion of legacy modules needs to be done. The newer engineering system also raised some maximums and new effects the legacy system didn't reach or have. It was also in the spirit of improving the system to require less time in general and not losing ranking favor again back to 3 when opting for an experimental as well as going through a bunch of lousy wasted rolls. All major MMO's have special or unique or limited time acquirable outfitting to some extent among their playerbase and for ED I don't think the legacy mods are serious enough unbalancing outliers. For myself I never did god rolls grinding, and only worked on getting a c5 cutter prismatic for powerplay hauling. I'd rather FD reintroduce the optimized mass secondary effect for shields as another experimental rather than just force wipe all legacies. I recall it was asked and mentioned in a livestream about this shield secondary during the transition and they sort of said they would keep a note of it, hmm.
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If you didn't have any god rolls, odds are auto-converting you to G4 would actually improve all your modules. That's how ridiculously good the new blueprints are in most cases. There are exceptions.
I have almost no "god rolls" but many of my legacy mods have specific secondary effects which required dozens of rolls to generate. In some cases these are seemingly minor but the combination of small reductions in power draw, distributor draw, weight and so on can collectively make a significant difference to a player's carefully crafted PVE build. Many of my ships have module priorities that just barely work because one of the weapons has a reduced distributor draw or jump ranges that only work because of a mass reduction secondary. The massive amount of time it took to generate those mods, combined with the time it took to outfit my ships, was literally hundreds of hours of work. For FD to forcibly convert those modules to G4, remove the experimental effects and expect players to re-grind new G5 mods, without any sort of compensation for those mats and the hundreds of hours of work involved, would drive many players from the game for good. FD realized this and this is why legacy mods still exist and will be left the way they are going forward.
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Eh?
If you have a legacy module that's less powerful than a current G5 one, why would you moan about it being converted to the new system? [wacky]
The only sane reason anybody would have for objecting would be 'cos it means their god-roll legacy modules would be reduced to being completed G5 modules in the current system.
And that, I'm afraid, is the way things should be.
It's absurd to think that ED could plod along for another decade and nobody, in all that time, would be able to build ships as powerful as what people built in the crazy days before engineering was sorted out.
The sooner FDev realises this for themselves, and gets on with it, the better.
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Of course they must not be deleted... theys should be automatically converted to the same grade in the new system, though.
Most legacy modules would be improved by such a conversion, while non-obtainable secondary effects would be removed.
Some examples have been mentioned here, like C5 shields in a Cutter. There are worse things, though, i.e. long range weapons with reduced distro draw secondaries, which can make quite a difference. Such things should not exist in the game.