Sadly that's the way it seems, but I defend my right to have forum meltdowns in all modes and without remorse
Sadly that's the way it seems, but I defend my right to have forum meltdowns in all modes and without remorse
Just as the liar's punishment is, not in the least that he is not believed, but that he cannot believe any one else; so a guilty society can more easily be persuaded that any apparently innocent act is guilty than that any apparently guilty act is innocent.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
My specialty is being right when other people are wrong.
Borrowing words from greater mind(s).
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
My specialty is being right when other people are wrong.
Borrowing words from greater mind(s).
You must've missed out a lot of the thread here. People already mentioned shield generators which are outside of what the current engineering allows you to create. There are legacy plasma accelerators out there, which perform on par to the new engineering, but create much less heat. (Unfortunately i only have two of those. Some people made dozens of them in preparation of the engineering rework. ) Morbad mentioned owning sensory which can not be reproduced in the current system.
My Courier for example has a legacy power plant, which offers a unique combination of improved power output, improved heat performance and reduced mass. It can not be reproduced in the new system. Any newly engineered Courier either runs a bit hotter or has a heavier power plant than mine.
As long as the system is the way it is, i'd be insane if i'd give up this advantage. But i'd be more than happy to loose it if this means that all legacy modules would be struck and all players would have access to the same levels of engineering.
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I've got tons of legacy modules. A heavier thermal resist bi weave than can be accomplished currently, a bunch of thermal load reduced and/or distro draw reduced Focused PAs, distro draw reduced lasers, etc etc
Either get rid of them for everyone, or add in new options to the current engineering system to match them. No reason why certain players should be at a permanent advantage by lucking out on a few rolls
Either get rid of them for everyone, or add in new options to the current engineering system to match them. No reason why certain players should be at a permanent advantage by lucking out on a few rolls
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Completely off topic, but: welcome back! Might be me, but i think i haven't seen anything from you since a few weeks.
First, of all, full disclosure:
- I only play in solo or, extremely rarely, mobius.
- I must have some legacy modules in 2-3 ships stuck in Colonia since '17
I find it extremely selfish to ask for others to lose things they have so that you feel more privileged. They chose to spend time, materials and patience to grind and get their modules. I have to respect and accept that. They have something better. So be it.
It's supposed to be a game and it shouldn't be confused with real life but I can't stop thinking how it would seem to my neighbor if I knocked on his door and asked him to get rid of his fancy car because I feel left out when I see it (they don't have a fancy car and I wouldn't feel left out anyway, but...)
That's all.
- I only play in solo or, extremely rarely, mobius.
- I must have some legacy modules in 2-3 ships stuck in Colonia since '17
I find it extremely selfish to ask for others to lose things they have so that you feel more privileged. They chose to spend time, materials and patience to grind and get their modules. I have to respect and accept that. They have something better. So be it.
It's supposed to be a game and it shouldn't be confused with real life but I can't stop thinking how it would seem to my neighbor if I knocked on his door and asked him to get rid of his fancy car because I feel left out when I see it (they don't have a fancy car and I wouldn't feel left out anyway, but...)
That's all.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts."
-- Bertrand Russell
It's extremely relevant because it clearly demonstrates that FD has never intended to create a "100% level playing field" between players. If that were the case they would have never offered players discounted rebuys or the Cobra IV which were only available for a limited time period. How is that not clear?
No, I'm saying we don't have a problem. Some players have stuff you can't get any more. That's exactly what FD intends and it doesn't break the game.
The arguments have already been presented for why it would be a terrible idea to forcibly convert modules, most notably the loss of significant numbers of players who would leave the game if their legacy mods were removed and they were forced to re-roll their modules. You simply want modules with legacy effects that you can't get any longer taken away from other players. Sorry, those players have legitimately earned them in-game, often requiring tremendous effort, and you have no legitimate basis to have them removed.
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No, I've been following it thoroughly, it's really not a very long thread.
Those shield generators provide a minor advantage for trading PVE activities only. Which, I might add, is far less significant than a player having their Cutter's rebuy reduced by 50%.
Yes, plasma accelerators still exist with reduced thermal load secondaries. FD can simply add a heat reduction to the experimental mods if they choose, exactly the same as they did for railguns in the new system. That is not an argument to remove all prior legacy mods.
Yes, there's no question that certain mods exist that cannot be duplicated in the new system. That doesn't change the fact that the new G5 blueprints are overall considerably more powerful than the prior system, even if some combinations of secondary effects are no longer available. The point here is that those small changes are mostly relevant for PVE, or simply to provide some interesting variety, and certainly don't break the game.
What you're not getting here is that a ship engineered entirely in the new system would be substantially more powerful than one that relies on legacy mods. Take my FDL as an example. Using the best G5 dirty drive tune I could produce under the legacy system it boosts at 500 m/s. If I take the new G5 dirty drive thrusters from my Mamba which are maxed out in the new system and put them into my FDL it boosts at around 550 m/s. That makes the new system for dirty drive tuning at least 10% better than what I could produce using legacy mods. The blueprints for weapons are even more powerful, closer to 15-20% higher dps. Overall a ship built entirely with the new Engineering system is at a substantial advantage overall, around 10-20%, in all areas. Could you reproduce a prior legacy build exactly? No, but you don't need to as the new maxed-out blueprints offer around 10-20% better overall performance.
Just because you would personally prefer to have legacy mods forcibly converted does not mean you can make that choice for other players. You being personally willing to give something up does not give you the right to expect it to be forcibly removed from other players.
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Perhaps, but there is precedent for removing legacy modules.
In 1.1 or 1.2, if I recall correctly, the old-style overcharged, high-impact/focused, and low heat weapons that had been grandfathered in since Gamma 1.00 (or was Beta 3.9 the last reset...I don't recall) were removed and refunded.
Which would also be acceptable fine for me, despite it yet again being power creep.
It is relevant in several ways. First i can once again point you at legacy PAs. While i am not a PvP player, i fully understand that those low-heat PAs make a massive difference for a PvP setup. The next important aspect points in a whole different direction: currently any new player at some time has to learn that there's equipment in game, which he will never get, no matter how hard he tries. And some of the equipment, e.g. PAs, also is PvP relevant, so not just a beauty of PvE issue.
And i guess this is also the point where we never get together. We view the thing from different aspects. Everything you post is along the line that you spent so much work in a computer game and should thus permanently now have an advantage about everybody else in the computer game.
I rather look at the state of the game and how it looks for a new player. The fact that it's impossible for even the most dedicated new player to ever fully catch up to a veteran, even if now only logs in once a month to show of his shinies, is discouraging. We already know that ED has a steep learning curve and has rather low player retention. We don't need additional artificial constructs to discourage people to stay.
So yes, i could also just egoistically threaten doom whenever somebody ever things about getting things in order. Yet i'd be ready to give up my artifacts of old time, which are better than anything you can now create, for the health of the game.
If we're now on the level of "not getting" something, i can also say that you did not get what i wrote. Nowhere did i say that my courier is all-grandfathered. But congrats for the nice strawman of "all legacy vs. all new system" you built there.
I pointed out the legacy power plant. The rest of my Courier was rebuilt on the new system. Yet thanks to that -one- grandfathered power plant, my Courier is above and beyond what any new player could ever achieve. It's not that they would not try hard enough. It's not that they would not be smart enough. It's plain and simple that my power plant is better than any power plant is as a spot which the present system can not reproduce.
I rolled that one like 50 times till i was lucky. In the new system, i can easily build a power plant which has the same or even higher power output, at the price of much more thermal load. I can also build one which has slightly better power output and similar thermal load, at the price of adding several tons of mass. But i can not reach the same spot of power output and reduced mass while still maintaining the low thermal load.
And that's unfortunately also something i had to tell to some of my friends over the Xmas period. During that time, they decided to take a look at the game again, learned about engineering and how i did things. And each of them reacted negatively when i told them that reproducing my Courier would be impossible for them.
But alas, i guess we just have to agree to disagree. We just see things from different perspectives.
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Considering how much power creep FD created with their massively buffed Engineering blueprints with 3.0 I don't think that plasma accelerators would be a major issue.
Yes, if a player wants to engage in PVP with PAs then the reduced heat generation will be a noticeable advantage, but PAs are not in any way necessary to engage in PVP and the current PVP meta changes frequently to include whatever OP game mechanic happens to be the most effective at any given time. Remember when thermal shock was the PVP meta and players were literally cooking each others ships instead of actually fighting? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
This is fundamentally an emotional argument, i.e., a player who simply "wants" something that they can't have and expects it to be taken away from other players who happen to have it. FD has already made decisions about these issues and has no problem with the concept of certain advantages or items being exclusive so it's something those players simply have to accept. In fact, FD has even monetized the concept in order to encourage players to buy the game by making the reduced rebuys and the Cobra IV only available for a limited time period. At least the Engineering legacy mods were entirely dependent on players putting in the required effort to obtain them rather than simply making a purchase at a particular point in time.
The vast majority of the legacy mods however are only really relevant for PVE activities. If someone honestly believes that they were beaten by another player in PVP because they had a legacy multicanon with a slightly reduced power draw or distributor draw or weight then I'm sorry but they are probably not a very good PVP player if that is their mindset. This isn't twitch gameplay like Battlefield where a player's TTK is literally 200-400 ms and fractions of a second decide the outcome. Elite is a game where there is literally a 10-20 min TTK in some PVP engagements.
You have the issue backwards here. We have players who have put hundreds of hours over nearly 2 years into the old Engineering system. FD doesn't want to alienate and lose those players over legacy mods and they quite correctly understood this. New players who simply "want" something they can't have need to accept that or can decide not to play Elite if they feel the "advantage" those players have is overwhelming. FD is not going to accommodate an emotional argument about new players "wanting" something and taking those things away from older players who have put hundreds or thousands of hours into the game.
The loss of older players who rely on legacy mods being intact for their current ship builds to work would do far more damage to the health of the game. Look at some of the older players who have stopped playing over the years, we no longer have Thrudd's trading tool, ED shipyard hasn't been updated for several months and so on. FD needs to retain, and if possible, bring back those older players to continue promoting Elite. Considering how dependent the game is on third-party sites and on experienced players helping out newer players get started in the game those are players you do not want to lose. The last thing we need is for FD to alienate the few dedicated players who are still playing and contributing to the game and that is exactly what removing legacy mods would do.
You didn't understand my comparison at all. My legacy dirty drive that could get my FDL to 500 m/s boost had a certain combination of primary and secondary rolls that could not be duplicated in the current system but the new drive outperformed it by at least 10%. The fact that the older drive could not be reproduced exactly was irrelevant because the new drive had significantly better performance.
Which, again, does not make it better than the new mods, only different. In most cases, the legacy mods are objectively inferior overall even if the specific secondary rolls can't be exactly duplicated.
Again, in most cases the legacy mods are significantly inferior to the top-end G5 blueprints in the current system. There are some exceptions but those are not frequent nor are they game-breaking.
If that specific issue put them off from the game, I would suggest that you either didn't put it into context or exaggerated the impact it has on the game. If you told them that some players are flying around with 50% reduced rebuys and that they can't fly the Cobra IV they would most likely have had an even stronger reaction to not being able to get those advantages either.
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There is a another point of view that needs be considered. Whenever new features are added to Elite, all these legacy modules need be tested and maintained against it to make sure there are no game breaking bugs or serious flaws. All of that takes time and effort. Our Devs' time is precious. Do we really want it wasted on maintaining legacy modules? I would rather they fix the pvp heat bug. Or balance out HGE materials finding. Or finally get fleet carriers to work. Or 100 other things that would be great to add or need fixed.
Keeping legacy modules is not free. It is a massive system and got to cost a lot to keep running with new changes. If we cant get fleet carriers because some players want some unfair advantage like a long-range beam that runs 30% less distro or 20% less heat, it is without doubt high time these modules are removed. And that is the situation give or take. It is not simply a moral or gameplay argument, but a practical one also.
I think for this reason alone the day the legacy modules will be forcibly converted is coming, and in my own humble opinion, the sooner that day dawns the better. Next major patch would not be too soon.
The game ecology is better off without these legacy modules and I think it is pretty obvious. The only arguments for keeping them are really predicated around some kind of selfishness; "I spent the time", "I deserve an advantage over others", "I dont want to put more effort in". I have not seen a single argument in favour of keeping these modules in which the good of the game as a whole is considered. Convince me otherwise.
Signing off,
CMDR Gavin786
Keeping legacy modules is not free. It is a massive system and got to cost a lot to keep running with new changes. If we cant get fleet carriers because some players want some unfair advantage like a long-range beam that runs 30% less distro or 20% less heat, it is without doubt high time these modules are removed. And that is the situation give or take. It is not simply a moral or gameplay argument, but a practical one also.
I think for this reason alone the day the legacy modules will be forcibly converted is coming, and in my own humble opinion, the sooner that day dawns the better. Next major patch would not be too soon.
The game ecology is better off without these legacy modules and I think it is pretty obvious. The only arguments for keeping them are really predicated around some kind of selfishness; "I spent the time", "I deserve an advantage over others", "I dont want to put more effort in". I have not seen a single argument in favour of keeping these modules in which the good of the game as a whole is considered. Convince me otherwise.
Signing off,
CMDR Gavin786
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If FDev had unlimited time and resources, they might indeed test all new features and their effects on legacy modules. It's quite obvious they don't, nor should they, given that the sheer diversity of legacy module combinations would make such testing nigh impossible, or at least impractical. I'll guess they might test a few edge cases and leave the rest to bug reports from owners of legacy modules.
FD does not "test" or "fix" legacy modules, they keep them exactly as they are.
That makes no sense. They are putting no effort into "updating" or "maintaining" legacy modules, they are simply keeping them in the game unchanged. They barely address game-breaking bugs in a timely manner, in fact, we have many significant game bugs which are unaddressed for months or sometimes even years.
There is no reason to believe this will ever happen, for all the reasons that have already been discussed.
Again, this is an emotional argument you're making here. You're calling players who put hundreds or thousands of hours into the prior Engineering system "selfish" as if to cast them in a negative light. It's the players who look at something that other players have, whether it's the reduced rebuys, Cobra IV or legacy modules, and expect it to be taken away from those players who are being selfish. Players who want to keep their reduced rebuys, or their Cobra IV, or their hard-earned legacy modules exactly as they are have every expectation that FD will make good on their promises to not take these things away from players who have obtained them.