General / Off-Topic Let's Have A Debate: To Be, Or Not To Be Vegan? That Is The Question ...

[znôrt]

Take another look, in the cases where babies died one set of parents rejected medical services for homeopathy, in the other they opted for 'faith healing'.

i fail to see a relevant connection to nutrition with such parents.

The Wikipedia page you linked to states flatly the connection with counter-culture.

in the 60's, along with long hair and new rights you may enjoy now taking them for granted. it's been a while since. we're now in 2019 talking about food habits and their implications, both on personal health and global consquences. finger pointing or singling out collectives is just silly.

This is prime tin foil hat territory and no one who rejects established medicine is pretty much guaranteed to reject the report.

for the record, i reject rejection!

 

[Shinji Ikari]

That is the issue, in practice. Traditionally vegan diets were the result of conscious choices made by people who generally did some reading to make sure they had a viable diet. In recent years there has, unfortunately, been an increase in 'anti-vax vegans': diets not bases on well-researched knowledge but on feelings, healing crystals, essential oils, conspiracy theories and a profound mistrust of 'experts'. The Swedish parents for example stated in court they were convinced they could supplement anything missing from the diet of their toddler with 'hugs, smiles and happiness' while refusing any medical assistance from professionals. The issue is not that vegan diets aren't possible but that we have a new wave of idiots, and vegan diets are just one tool in their belt to mess things up for people under their care. We need some level of control to guarantee that kids dont drop dead because of malnutrition in western Europe in 2019, as stupid as it is that we even need to discuss this.

Beyond that, there is the issue of who gets to pay for what medical assistance. Belgium has a very 'socialized' medical system. Because I have an income above a certain level I pay the maximum amount for my medical insurance, which is approximate $80 per year. People with a lower income pay half. While that is great, such a system obviously only works if people take some amount of responsibility to make sure they don't needlessly overburden the system. We have approximately 300,000 vegans in Belgium. Is it reasonable to have them all be placed under tax-paid professional medical supervision just because they are willing to risk the lives of their kids through their ignorance and stupidity?

I am not claiming to know the answers, as this is a very complex topic. Where do you draw the line? If you play sports you are taking a risk of getting an injury. Is that unreasonable? Does it depends on the sports? Should their be a premium for people who undertake certain activities, and if so which activities and how much? We try to simply not ask these questions and simply let people live their lives. But now we are faced with, essentially, starving kids and we have to take a position.

Being vegan doesn't necessarily mean you are an idiot, you can find idiots in any place and effectively write what you just wrote.

 

[Manticore]

Yes but do not eat the humans genetically modified. As with the corn, we are not sure of the long-term consequences

Soylent Green is people.....

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

so a high throughput bovine processing installation is natural?

It's more natural than eschewing bees wax, because reasons.
Nothing in nature makes those sorts of distinctions.
That's just us.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Being vegan doesn't necessarily mean you are an idiot

I didn't say that, I even explicitly said the issue was not with the concept of a vegan diet but how a new bunch of idiots apply it...

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Being vegan doesn't necessarily mean you are an idiot, you can find idiots in any place and effectively write what you just wrote.

He never makes that claim, and you're not a vegan are you?

 

[Shinji Ikari]

"Well-planned vegan diets are regarded as appropriate for all stages of life, including during infancy and pregnancy, by the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[f] Dietitians of Canada,[24] Australian National Health and Medical Research Council,[25] New Zealand Ministry of Health,[26] Harvard Medical School,[27] and the British Dietetic Association.[28] The German Society for Nutrition does not recommend vegan diets for children or adolescents, or during pregnancy and breastfeeding.[g] In preliminary clinical research, vegan diets lowered the risk of type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, obesity, and ischemic heart disease.[30][31][32][33] Vegan diets tend to be higher in dietary fiber, magnesium, folic acid, vitamin C, vitamin E, iron, and phytochemicals; and lower in dietary energy, saturated fat, cholesterol, long-chain omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin D, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.[h] As with any poorly-planned diet, unbalanced vegan diets may lead to nutritional deficiencies that nullify any beneficial effects and may cause serious health issues.[34][35][36] Some of these deficiencies can only be prevented through the choice of fortified foods or the regular intake of dietary supplements.[34][37] Vitamin B12 supplementation is especially important because its deficiency causes blood disorders and potentially irreversible neurological damage.[36][38][39]"

As I said, meat or not, you can negatively affect yourself with any diet, go to a nutriologist to get a proper diet and see the advantages and disadvantages of a certain diet.

I didn't say that, I even explicitly said the issue was not with the concept of a vegan diet but how a new bunch of idiots apply it...

"We have approximately 300,000 vegans in Belgium. Is it reasonable to have them all be placed under tax-paid professional medical supervision just because they are willing to risk the lives of their kids through their ignorance and stupidity? "

Idiots can make good ideas bad ideas, I simply don't see your point.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

He never makes that claim, and you're not a vegan are you?

No, and that's the theme in his post, otherwise he posted something unremarkable.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

It's more natural than eschewing bees wax, because reasons.
Nothing in nature makes those sorts of distinctions.
That's just us.

Did we even eat honey before apiculture was a thing?

 

[Ian Skippy]

"Well-planned vegan diets are regarded as appropriate for all stages of life, including during infancy and pregnancy, by the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[f] Dietitians of Canada,[24] Australian National Health and Medical Research Council,[25] New Zealand Ministry of Health,[26] Harvard Medical School,[27] and the British Dietetic Association.[28] The German Society for Nutrition does not recommend vegan diets for children or adolescents, or during pregnancy and breastfeeding.[g] In preliminary clinical research, vegan diets lowered the risk of type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, obesity, and ischemic heart disease.[30][31][32][33] Vegan diets tend to be higher in dietary fiber, magnesium, folic acid, vitamin C, vitamin E, iron, and phytochemicals; and lower in dietary energy, saturated fat, cholesterol, long-chain omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin D, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.[h] As with any poorly-planned diet, unbalanced vegan diets may lead to nutritional deficiencies that nullify any beneficial effects and may cause serious health issues.[34][35][36] Some of these deficiencies can only be prevented through the choice of fortified foods or the regular intake of dietary supplements.[34][37] Vitamin B12 supplementation is especially important because its deficiency causes blood disorders and potentially irreversible neurological damage.[36][38][39]"

As I said, meat or not, you can negatively affect yourself with any diet, go to a nutriologist to get a proper diet and see the advantages and disadvantages of a certain diet.



"We have approximately 300,000 vegans in Belgium. Is it reasonable to have them all be placed under tax-paid professional medical supervision just because they are willing to risk the lives of their kids through their ignorance and stupidity? "

Idiots can make good ideas bad ideas, I simply don't see your point.

I'm getting the distinct impression you are personally invested into this topic, and that your French may not be good enough to have understood the report I linked you to. You also just completely misread what I explained, if I may be so bold, quite clearly, twice in a few minutes. Honestly, I am not really interested in a discussion of this nature. I have linked you to the report, what you do with that is completely up to you. I have no intention to change your mind, but would ask you to stop misrepresenting what I say.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I'm getting the distinct impression you are personally invested into this topic, and that your French may not be good enough to have understood the report I linked you to. You also just completely misread what I explained, if I may be so bold, quite clearly, twice in a few minutes. Honestly, I am not really interested in a discussion of this nature. I have linked you to the report, what you do with that is completely up to you. I have no intention to change your mind, but would ask you to stop misrepresenting what I say.

I'd have read it if I knew french. And you still haven't answered what was your point, ATM I think it was that stupid vegans are dangerous which is supported by the report, the thing is, stupid X is always bad.

 

[Cmdr Aos_Si]

Is it necessary to eat meat and animal excretion products? The fact that there are huge numbers of vegans and there are populations that have lived from plant diets for millennia proves that eating meat is unnecessary. Therefore killing and eating animals is a choice. Keeping an animal in captivity then killing it while it is healthy is cruel. As the cruelty is unnecessary it cannot morally be justifiable. Therefore I choose to eat a vegan diet.

 

[Manticore]

Is it necessary to eat meat and animal excretion products?

I was going to say it isn't necessary at all but a matter of choice... you said it.

I commend people for taking a stand that improves their health or the health of the planet generally.... carry on.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Did we even eat honey before apiculture was a thing?

Wild animals do so it's not exactly a stretch, lol...

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

"Well-planned vegan diets

That's not countering the point he is making by any stretch.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Is it necessary to eat meat and animal excretion products? The fact that there are huge numbers of vegans and there are populations that have lived from plant diets for millennia proves that eating meat is unnecessary. Therefore killing and eating animals is a choice. Keeping an animal in captivity then killing it while it is healthy is cruel. As the cruelty is unnecessary it cannot morally be justifiable. Therefore I choose to eat a vegan diet.

Huge?
How are you defining "huge"?
It's less than 1% in the US.
Agriculture for crops kills lots of animals too btw.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Dumb animals get brutally mauled/eaten alive by predators all the time.

All I care about is how they taste tbh.

 

[TruthSeeker]

 

[Ian Skippy]

Is it necessary to eat meat and animal excretion products? The fact that there are huge numbers of vegans and there are populations that have lived from plant diets for millennia proves that eating meat is unnecessary.

That depends on what you mean with 'necessary'. That 'fact' (and I'll just accept it for the sake of discussion) only proves that with such a diet a sufficient percentage of kids survive to the age of reproduction, or +-12 years, for the community to survive for another generation. Whether that is sufficient to promote that diet is up to debate. It apparently is enough for you. For the doctors who are increasingly confronted with children suffering irreversible health issues it is apparently not so much.

As a rule of thumb I'd strongly recommend people, especially those not formally trained in the discipline, to be extremely hesitant in making broad sweeping medical statements. We could add half a pound of peanuts to the diet of every person on this planet and the species would survive for millenia. Then again, approximately five million people would die within 24 hours. Whether that means excluding peanuts is necessary would depend on whom you'd ask the question. I'd wager a fair amount the five million people who would die might have strong opinions about it.

 

[jasonbarron]

That depends on what you mean with 'necessary'. That 'fact' (and I'll just accept it for the sake of discussion) only proves that with such a diet a sufficient percentage of kids survive to the age of reproduction, or +-12 years, for the community to survive for another generation. Whether that is sufficient to promote that diet is up to debate. It apparently is enough for you. For the doctors who are increasingly confronted with children suffering irreversible health issues it is apparently not so much.

As a rule of thumb I'd strongly recommend people, especially those not formally trained in the discipline, to be extremely hesitant in making broad sweeping medical statements. We could add half a pound of peanuts to the diet of every person on this planet and the species would survive for millenia. Then again, approximately five million people would die within 24 hours. Whether that means excluding peanuts is necessary would depend on whom you'd ask the question. I'd wager a fair amount the five million people who would die might have strong opinions about it.

I choose not to eat peanuts, and that makes me morally superior to those who do