LIFETIME Expansion pass, and Python Mk2

[Sylow]

Without some radical turn around, the last time Frontier will ever have seen a cent from me was six years ago.

This part i can sign.

 

[Montague]

Beyond and the other updates that were free of charge also costed money to develop. That hidden cost is not included in your valuation.

The end result after 9 years is that I paid more for those "free" updates than did the players who purchased the expansions separately rather than via the LEP. If Frontier were to announce future expansions are still in the works, it would be a moot point. Instead, they've only committed to a few more updates. Rather than sell more expansions, they've decided to sell in-game assets. I really don't know what to expect from them next.

The LEP is not only about getting a return on investment. Because, it's also about helping a developer to continue developing a game. I think there will be more major updates (some paid) in the future. How else are they going to add more detailed planet types, EVA, ship interiors, base building? If they add those features then it's definitely more value than the LEP imo.

I draw a distinction between the Kickstarter LEP and the retail LEP that was sold shortly before Horzons launched.

In a Kickstarter, the object is to fund a project you would like to see become reality. If successful, you'll receive a product and warm fuzzy feelings for making it happen. You may pay more than the eventual retail price simply because you want to support the project; in this regard, it's more like a charity. Also note that the LEP was quite a bargain, available for £80 (about $100 US). Anyone who got that LEP has come out ahead by now (that £80 also included the base game).

The retail LEP I paid $180 for in the Fall of 2015 was not a Kickstarter. Many expansion "seasons" were allegedly being planned and they sold this product to us as a "win-win" in that they'd get more money up front for development in the short term, but in the longer term we'd wind up paying less for all those wonderful "seasons" that were still to come. I never dreamed the LEP wouldn't have paid for itself by now. I bought my LEP as a retail product, not a potential charity.

Maybe Frontier will eventually offer more paid expansions. If they do, the $180 LEP will finally deliver its promised value. But at this point my faith is nearly non-existent.

I really wish I had never bought the LEP. I enjoy the game but knowing I may have fallen for a bait-and-switch makes me feel like a sucker. It certainly doesn't motivate me to buy arx.

 

[GJ51]

Meh...

If players don't support the game it will die

I'm happy to kick in a bit to keep ED alive

I will be siriusly PO'd if We don't get a medium Saud Kruger and Gutamaya ship

Do we really need a Type 8 ???

Siriusly FD

And a Panther Clipper

If you want support give us what we've asked for, for - like - FOREVER

 

[Jmanis]

I'm not sure what special goodwill LEP holders need maintained that is special to them at this point since the LEP has been honored and there is no indication that will stop.

Except the part where anything attributed to LEP ceased entirely three years ago.

To the contrary, they find themselves in the same state as every expansion holder. And expansion buyers are just piecemeal buyers of the same products.

I'm not sure I follow the logic that the LEP holders are owed more than the product they bought because a new product exists.

What new product? This is still Elite: Dangerous.

All that's happened is they've (implicitly) rug-pulled by changing their distribution model. Like I said before, weasle words. Anyone buying a LEP would reasonably expect[1] that to be, in short, any new, functional content updates.

Rationalisation that this is an "update/early access" not an "expansion" is precisely what weasel words are, and what consumer laws help protect against.

Similarly, I don't get why, if the new transaction is an issue for LEP holders, the same isn't true of Odyssey buyers since those people are ostensibly buying into what LEP holders get one expansion release at a time.

Bluntly, it should be an issue for Odyssey buyers. But this is what modern game monetization looks like... and while there is a stronger case for "This is something outside the scope of Odyssey as an expansion, look, it's not even on-foot!"... there's no case to say "This is something that falls outside the scope of anything that could be considered an expansion, update or other form of new content brought to the game, within the lifetime of the game"

[1] Big emphasis on "Reasonably Expect". Again, "It's not food, it's candy!" logic.

 

[House0fDerp]

I didn't say they have access, I said they expect access. The context here being future content. I don't know why you are referring to past or present access, or in-game experience. The core of the matter is what LEPers should expect to get in the future.

Let's take Odyssey owners for example - yes, they can access the same game features as LEPers - but in terms of future content, they know that at some point in the future, FDEV is gonna say: "that's it, that was the Odyssey expansion, hope you liked it, but this new stuff here, you have to pay for it!".

LEPers on the other hand, expect FDEV to say: "we have this new content and those guys over there are getting cut off from it, but not you! you bought the LEP so you get it automatically!".

That's the difference between the two categories.

That's immaterial for the discussion at hand. So far as the issue of the PM2 goes, there is expansion access and early access. There is no LEP soecific access and future content is of no relevance here.

I'd say we're somewhere half way across that bridge.

Is exclusive content for a while not exclusive? I already said in another post that 3 months is a short time, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that May - June - July, you'll be able to split the playerbase between Python MKII Haves and Python MKII Have Nots.

The Horizons expansion itself, it was exclusive for about 5 years, and then it wasn't anymore.

No, by the definition I just gave and you quoted. The content will be had by LEP owners. The fact that it won't be on Tuesday doesn't change that.

Even Horizons wasn't given a defined timeframe for inclusion at its launch and that inclusion certainly took more than 3 months. So even if, some years down the line it rolls in to the base package that forward outlook will have you another stage of content ahead.

 

[House0fDerp]

Except the part where anything attributed to LEP ceased entirely three years ago.

3 things here:
1, We had a years long gap of paid content between Horizons and Odyssey. This didn't stop Odyssey from releasing.
2, We've had no indication that the expansion model is retired.
3, The last paid expansion is being augmented with a new ship and thus still receiving content

What new product? This is still Elite: Dangerous.

And? This is a separate price point, is it not? An individual purchase not mandated or grated by ownership of the base game.

All that's happened is they've (implicitly) rug-pulled by changing their distribution model. Like I said before, weasle words. Anyone buying a LEP would reasonably expect[1] that to be, in short, any new, functional content updates.

There is no rug pull. You're getting the content. Denying access altogether would be a rug pull. You are getting the PM2.

Rationalisation that this is an "update/early access" not an "expansion" is precisely what weasel words are, and what consumer laws help protect against.

No. There are no weasel words. There is a perfectly blunt statement:

You are getting the ship. You are getting the expansion content. You are getting it upon its release to owners of the related expansion you were granted access to by the LEP.

Bluntly, it should be an issue for Odyssey buyers. But this is what modern game monetization looks like... and while there is a stronger case for "This is something outside the scope of Odyssey as an expansion, look, it's not even on-foot!"... there's no case to say "This is something that falls outside the scope of anything that could be considered an expansion, update or other form of new content brought to the game, within the lifetime of the game"

Scope is and has been an issue for this game. None of the expansions were narrow in scope and some updates unpaid. And the ship itself is within the scope of "expansion" and thus LEP owners are getting it. They just aren't getting early access.

LEP owners are getting the ship. LEP owners will get their game expanded. And LEP owners do not need to spend anything to achieve this.

 

[House0fDerp]

Now, if people are arguing on the general principle that the resale and double dipping on expansion content is bad, then I'm all in.

But again, that's not LEP specific. That's just a greed move to maximize cash from a new ship starved playerbase.

 

[Jmanis]

There is no rug pull. You're getting the content. Denying access altogether would be a rug pull. You are getting the PM2.

Weasel words

You are getting the ship. You are getting the expansion content. You are getting it upon its release to owners of the related expansion you were granted access to by the LEP.

Weasel words

Scope is and has been an issue for this game. None of the expansions were narrow in scope and some updates unpaid. And the ship itself is within the scope of "expansion" and thus LEP owners are getting it. They just aren't getting early access.

Weasel words

LEP owners are getting the ship. LEP owners will get their game expanded. And LEP owners do not need to spend anything to achieve this.

Weasel words.

It's really simple. LEP owners paid for all future content updates.

Next Tuesday they'll release the P2 into the mainline game. Not an early access branch, not a beta, the mainline game. Can I access it Tuesday? No. So what I paid for hasn't been fulfilled. Yes, three months later I'll have access, unless I pay for it earlier. That's normally called a ransom, but I wouldn't be so bold as to go that far, but I know my local consumer affairs has some views on this sort of thing too.

Otherwise, what's to stop them going "Did I say 3 months? I meant 6... now I mean 12... now... uh... 24?"

So, I'm just waiting to Tuesday to see if Frontier realise they've soiled the bed and correct course. Then it's a cursory email with a timeframe to FD support to request access under the LEP... if not, it's a referral to local consumer affairs.

 

[House0fDerp]

It's really simple. LEP owners paid for all future content updates.

And you're getting the future content update, despite weasel words pretending you're not.

Yes, three months later I'll have access, unless I pay for it earlier. That's normally called a ransom

The sale of early access is now a "ransom". Amazing. I'd love to live in a world were anything ransomed just gets given out after the takers get bored.

 

[Jmanis]

And you're getting the future content update, despite weasel words pretending you're not.



The sale of early access is now a "ransom". Amazing. I'd love to live in a world were anything ransomed just gets given out after the takers get bored.

Except it's not early access.

Is it in the mainline game? Yes? Then it's not early access.

Also, I guess you've never heard of ransom being used like that before. I suggest you open your mind a bit more.

 

[House0fDerp]

Except it's not early access.

Is it in the mainline game? Yes? Then it's not early access.

There is a date for expansion access to the PM2.

Tuesday is not that date. Tuesday is earlier than that date. Therefore any access to the PM2 on Tuesday is early. The fact is it's not available from action in "the mainline game" on Tuesday. It's available only as a separate purchase of early access, as evidenced by expansion holders who bought the content not yet having it.

 

[Jmanis]

There is a date for expansion access to the PM2.

Tuesday is not that date. Tuesday is earlier than that date. Therefore any access to the PM2 on Tuesday is early. The fact is it's not available from action in "the mainline game" on Tuesday. It's available only as a separate purchase of early access, as evidenced by expansion holders who bought the content not yet having it.

So those with access to the PM2 are on a separate client and instance of the universe to the rest of the game? Where activities affecting, say, the BGS, have no impact on the rest of those without PM2 access? I can't instance or wing-up with anyone who purchases the PM2? Those with a PM2 don't affect the Thargoid war?

If yes, then sure, that's early access.
If no, then that's not early access. Or rather. It's a paid content update (whether temporal or not), and therefore LEP should have access to it.

 

[House0fDerp]

So those with access to the PM2 are on a separate client and instance of the universe to the rest of the game?

No, but that doesn't actually matter. There is a set date for expansion access. If they chose to preview it to select persons for cash or any other reason, with full release at a later date, that's early access.

 

[Jmanis]

No, but that doesn't actually matter. There is a set date for expansion access. If they chose to preview it to select persons for cash or any other reason, with full release at a later date, that's early access.

If it's in the mainline game, it's not preview. It's literally content in the game. Weasel words again.

 

[House0fDerp]

If it's in the mainline game, it's not preview. It's literally content in the game. Weasel words again.

No one said preview, it's early access, and it's an established convention even if you're trying to weasel it out of existence.

Edit: On the topic of "weasel words", I don't think you understand what that phrase means. My replies were specific and direct even if you didn't agree. There was no hidden meanings or vagueness.

Saying LEP holders are getting the content and getting it with expansion holders isn't "weasel words", it's the blatant, direct and unobfuscated truth per the information we have at this time.

 

[Montague]

All these weasel words are making me nostalgic for Frank Zappa.

 

[Jmanis]

... If they chose to preview...

No one said preview...

Ahuh.

Edit: On the topic of "weasel words", I don't think you understand what that phrase means. My replies were specific and direct even if you didn't agree. There was no hidden meanings or vagueness.

Thing is, when someone can't even recall the words they said in a previous post just to try and make a point, debating anything becomes pointless if facts don't mean anything anymore.

I suggest you revisit the meaning of words like 'exclusive', and 'content', then you'll realise exactly how you're just weasel wording.

 

[House0fDerp]

Thing is, when someone can't even recall the words they said in a previous post just to try and make a point, debating anything becomes pointless if facts don't mean anything anymore.

Fair catch, thought point remains. There is an expansion release date for the content and anything before that is early.

I suggest you revisit the meaning of words like 'exclusive', and 'content', then you'll realise exactly how you're just weasel wording.

You're getting the content though. The ship is the content. The timing is not content. No weasel wording, just statements you don't like.

 

[AndiBcool]

Basicly i dont mind if i get the Python mk2 sooner as LEP owner. I basicly dont even play the game anymore. I have it still installed and sometimes i load it up take a look how much of my money the carrier burnt away then log out.
The new ship will be bought with credits, fitted out, taken for a testflight and basicly will be stored away in the carrier.

As for my game costs, it would have been cheaper to buy the seasons seperate, but Frontier told us there will be many more paid updates, so the LEP seemed a good deal.
Later they changed the expansions to be free.
As for my costs i paid 49.99€ for the Elite dangerous Game 25.03.2015.
LEP 162,50€ 10.08.2015
Cosmetics around 240€
Merch 470€
Total = 922,49€
Yeah i guess i did support the game quite good. Basicly 100€ per year.

I had quite some hours in the game and some nice merch too.


Anyway someone that only did buy elite and the paid extensions did pay way less 50€ Game 40€ Horizons ? 40€ Odyssey? That is not even the price of the LEP.
Later Players got the main Game free with purchase of Horizons and most of the time you could also buy it discounted. I remember you could buy main game and horizons for almost no money in sales.
Heck i even got booth free from Epic game store as a giveaway.

So yes the LEP was a bad deal if no more paid expansions will hit and i dont think another one will hit.
Odyssey did also add not good content for me. Elite was to me always a great Space flight simulator with options to earn money and you could also play it in VR.
Basicly the best VR game out there. Odyssey content does not really support VR.
I never played Elite in VR so i care less but still it should have been in there.

A new expansion will drive a few ppl back for a few weeks to look what it is about, but will not hold them.
For new players Elite is to complex and you get only information from 3rd partys and not in the game.
Elite might get a few new ppl but also loose old.

Seeing Elite goes for real money ships now, is a form of advancement over regular starters is to me, a form of pay2win and a break whats been told by Frontier.
To me its a bad sign and it will not help the game.

There comes a new update that adds new content, but the new ships are behind a paywall. Players that pay real money gain access to it sooner. This is truely a form of pay2win as some players will have the advancement to use it already.
To me it breaks the LEP because i should have the expansion and content free of costs, but i dont get it now. I get it later like everyone else.

Actually i dont know what is more bad breaking with existing and long term supporters, the broken promise that you will never can buy in game essets for real money, or the pay2win advancements the store offers for ships and sooner access to them?

For me this basicly means the game is dead for me and i wont support Frontier with any new purchases.

I dont play pay2win games.

 

[Shadowsnog]

Basicly i dont mind if i get the Python mk2 sooner as LEP owner. I basicly dont even play the game anymore. I have it still installed and sometimes i load it up take a look how much of my money the carrier burnt away then log out.
The new ship will be bought with credits, fitted out, taken for a testflight and basicly will be stored away in the carrier.

As for my game costs, it would have been cheaper to buy the seasons seperate, but Frontier told us there will be many more paid updates, so the LEP seemed a good deal.
Later they changed the expansions to be free.
As for my costs i paid 49.99€ for the Elite dangerous Game 25.03.2015.
LEP 162,50€ 10.08.2015
Cosmetics around 240€
Merch 470€
Total = 922,49€
Yeah i guess i did support the game quite good. Basicly 100€ per year.

I had quite some hours in the game and some nice merch too.


Anyway someone that only did buy elite and the paid extensions did pay way less 50€ Game 40€ Horizons ? 40€ Odyssey? That is not even the price of the LEP.
Later Players got the main Game free with purchase of Horizons and most of the time you could also buy it discounted. I remember you could buy main game and horizons for almost no money in sales.
Heck i even got booth free from Epic game store as a giveaway.

So yes the LEP was a bad deal if no more paid expansions will hit and i dont think another one will hit.
Odyssey did also add not good content for me. Elite was to me always a great Space flight simulator with options to earn money and you could also play it in VR.
Basicly the best VR game out there. Odyssey content does not really support VR.
I never played Elite in VR so i care less but still it should have been in there.

A new expansion will drive a few ppl back for a few weeks to look what it is about, but will not hold them.
For new players Elite is to complex and you get only information from 3rd partys and not in the game.
Elite might get a few new ppl but also loose old.

Seeing Elite goes for real money ships now, is a form of advancement over regular starters is to me, a form of pay2win and a break whats been told by Frontier.
To me its a bad sign and it will not help the game.

There comes a new update that adds new content, but the new ships are behind a paywall. Players that pay real money gain access to it sooner. This is truely a form of pay2win as some players will have the advancement to use it already.
To me it breaks the LEP because i should have the expansion and content free of costs, but i dont get it now. I get it later like everyone else.

Actually i dont know what is more bad breaking with existing and long term supporters, the broken promise that you will never can buy in game essets for real money, or the pay2win advancements the store offers for ships and sooner access to them?

For me this basicly means the game is dead for me and i wont support Frontier with any new purchases.

I dont play pay2win games.

I wholly understand and in general i agree, but let me ask you just one question.
Not discussing the particular steps how they do it, but do you think that fdev as a business should cater to the old players, who in your own words dont even play anymore, or should they try to attain (and maintain) some new playerbase?