Logitech X56 stick vs. Virpil Constellation Alpha on WarBRD base?

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

I have a question in the hope that there are people here who have both the Logitech X56 HOTAS and a Virpil Constellation Alpha stick, preferably on a WarBRD base for tabletop use.

I've been playing ED with the X56 for nearly 2 years now, and I quite like it. Only remaining problem I have with the stick (after fixing the Z-axis squeak and upgrading the fire button with a stiffer spring) is its size. To be honest, my hands are a bit too small for it, and I find i hard to reach all the hats, even with the hand rest as high up as it can go. And that's almost too high given my seating position and table height, so that part can be a tiny bit uncomfortable.

Now I'm looking at the Virpil Constellation Alpha on a WarBRD base, for desktop use. Because build quality. But it appears the palm rest is even higher up than it is with the X56, even though I'm not sure if that's actually true. I cannot find any comparisons (with photos) between the two on the web.

If possible, it would be great if somebody had both in possession and could shoot some side-by-side comparison pictures for me.

Bonus goal: If you also happen to have the Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 throttle, and are by any chance using its analog ministick, it would be interesting to hear about how well that works in comparison with the X56 throttle, which has a thumb stick instead of the index finger one of the Virpil throttle. I fear that using your index finger for this might not work as well as it does when using your thumb, especially for lateral movement...

Thank you very much!

 

[virosh]

I recently changed my X55 Rhino for a Virpil controls and i need to say i am not going back... Ever!
I currently fly with MongoosT-50CM2 Base + Constellation ALPHA Grip, MongoosT-50CM3 Throttle and Virpil Ace Rudder Pedals.
Needless to say that the grip is much more comfortable and the regulating hand rest is a blessing. However for my base i noticed that if the grip is directly mounted to it the movements are very short which you need some time to get used to. Luckily i have ordered the 10cm extension tube which almost fixes this.
The grip is very nice and i can play for hours without my hand getting tired. The buttons respond very good and there are plenty of them, especially on the throttle.
Regarding your question about the mini joystick - i did tried both of the mini analog joysticks (on the grip and on the throttle) for lateral and vertical thrust and i need to say that the one on the throttle is much more comfortable.
Unfortunately i cannot give you any information about the Z-axis on the grip as i use pedals for Yaw and the first thing i did when the grip arrived was to lock down the axis.
The throttle also have a very nice set of detents which you can use to suit your style of play. I personally installed the "Cosmo Center" piece and now my throttle sits on 50% and i can switch between forward and reverse thrust very quickly.

The thing which is annoying me is that ED does not support controllers with more than 32 buttons (my current throttle have 80+) and in order for the throttle to work properly you need to enable a setting in Virpil software that maps all buttons from 33 to 128 as a keyboard. This makes the bindings look strange as at some point some of your buttons starts spelling characters and not a joystick button numbers.
The final downside which i still haven't found a fix is that, because i play with VR now i cannot map a button for taking screenshots or starting/stopping video recording. Unfortunately the Virpil software cannot do that and i am currently trying to figure out how i can use AutoHotKey app to do this for me, but unfortunately without any luck.

Overall the quality of the grip, base, throttle and pedals is really high. Most of the parts are metal and where plastic is used it is also high quality. The grip and the throttle have very nice anti-slipping diamond patterns on them and they feel very nice.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

Thank you very much for your input! Nice to hear the ministick on the throttle works for you, I was a bit concerned regarding that. I thought I'd mix the Virpil stick with the X56 throttle maybe, but I'm not so sure about whether that'd be a good idea.

Also I've been thinking about the CosmoSim Cams for the WarBRD base for the stick and also for the throttle. Seems better than what I'm doing now in case of the throttle, switching between forward & reverse thrust using a button. Having a centre detent seems much more elegant.

The only thing I remain concerned about is the height of the base+stick for tabletop use. Since you have the MongoosT-50CM2 base with an extension tube mounted, you've probably mounted it to your chair or one of their desk mounts. If at all possible, could you compare the height of the base from lowest point all the way to the palm rest of the Constellation Alpha stick (maybe at its lowest position) to the X55? This would be helpful, because then I can simulate that at my place to see whether I'd be comfortable with the stick / the stick's palm rest sitting at a potentially higher position.

Again, thanks!

PS: Playing in VR, tool

 

[Ashnak]

No comparison picture (don't have and never had the X-56), but on my setup (the palm rest is adjustable) the distance between the bottom of the base and the top of the palm rest is around 16 cm (a bit less at the front due to the curvature, but then you'll also need to add a couple of mm to that number for the base plate for desktop mounting).
Which is why my sticks (HOSAS) are mounted on a dropped rail next to my chair's armrests (3D printed, for most of the parts).

Spoiler

 

[Lyvan Kitaen]

I own a Constellation Alpha on a WarBRD base and I would say it's right at the upper level of acceptability for desktop use. (for me at least) The hand rest is just shy of 6.5 inches from the surface of the desk whereas my Gladiator-K is about 4. You do get used to the height though.

I would love it if it was lower, but I don't want to go to the hassle of hanging my sticks and throttle from my desk. In every other way, the Alpha/WarBRD combo is nearly perfect for me.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

Thank you all very much!

With your measurements I can run some quick tests using my existing X56 stick, raising it to a similar level to see whether that's ok for me. If not, I may need to reconsider the tabletop setup...

Anyway, that was helpful!

I actually like your setup, Ashnak, looks kinda DIY makeshift all the way, especially when it includes 3D printed parts. HOSAS isn't for me though, I'll stick with HOTAS. You're a combat-focused pilot, maybe? I'm doing slow-paced exploration, haven't fired a weapon in what feels like ages.

 

[virosh]

I see that you already got your questions answered.
I need to add that i finally managed to make the AutoHotKey script work, so i am now able to make screenshots again so if someone needs this - drop me a PM.

 

[Ashnak]

Thank you all very much!

With your measurements I can run some quick tests using my existing X56 stick, raising it to a similar level to see whether that's ok for me. If not, I may need to reconsider the tabletop setup...

Anyway, that was helpful!

I actually like your setup, Ashnak, looks kinda DIY makeshift all the way, especially when it includes 3D printed parts. HOSAS isn't for me though, I'll stick with HOTAS. You're a combat-focused pilot, maybe? I'm doing slow-paced exploration, haven't fired a weapon in what feels like ages.

Anything, really - 99% PvE. I had a HOTAS before (Thrustmaster), but always had the feeling that the throttle wasn't really a good match for the full 6 DOF mobilty.
While just hopping along in SC, I can do everything with the right stick. 3 rotational axes, stepped throttle on the thumbwheel. The left stick is for translational thruster control.

 

[d8veh]

I have several Virpils. I started with twin MongoosT-50s on Virpil bases with the desk mounts, then I changed to throttle and Delta, then I managed to get an Alpha. Nothing comes close to this stuff. It's absolutely bullet proof. I'd recommend the Virpil mongoos bases and desk-mounts. They're really solid, but you do end up trapped between them if you don't have wheels on your chair.

I too have small hands and not very dextrous fingers, but I find these sticks absolutely fine, though the throttle is probably a bit wide for me if I'm honest, but It just means a bit more hand movement rather than fingers.

They give you different cams and springs with the bases, so you can set them up how you want. Also, the springs are adjustable.

The only problem I had was with the throttle. It has so many buttons that ED can't manage them all, so you have to use Vjoy and Joystick gremlin to translate some of them into keystrokes. I think that the Virpil software allows you to split it into two virtual devices, but I haven't done that. Hopefully, Odyssey will allow more buttons to save the hassle.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

They had that split feature once, but have since removed it, as apparently it caused too many issues, like loss of mappings. As far as I understand it, they redesigned it so that buttons 33+ can now be mapped to the keyboard, as virosh said above. That's good enough for me if it works properly.

I didn't have time yesterday, but today I'll test the ~16cm palm rest height to see whether I can fly comfortably like that. Maybe just put a book under my stick or something.

If I do decide to buy the Virpils, I'll definitely get the CosmoSim Cams for the stick as well. I think I'll make my decision within the week.

 

[virosh]

I have several Virpils. I started with twin MongoosT-50s on Virpil bases with the desk mounts, then I changed to throttle and Delta, then I managed to get an Alpha. Nothing comes close to this stuff. It's absolutely bullet proof. I'd recommend the Virpil mongoos bases and desk-mounts. They're really solid, but you do end up trapped between them if you don't have wheels on your chair.

I too have small hands and not very dextrous fingers, but I find these sticks absolutely fine, though the throttle is probably a bit wide for me if I'm honest, but It just means a bit more hand movement rather than fingers.

They give you different cams and springs with the bases, so you can set them up how you want. Also, the springs are adjustable.

The only problem I had was with the throttle. It has so many buttons that ED can't manage them all, so you have to use Vjoy and Joystick gremlin to translate some of them into keystrokes. I think that the Virpil software allows you to split it into two virtual devices, but I haven't done that. Hopefully, Odyssey will allow more buttons to save the hassle.

You don't need to use vJoy and Joystick Gremlin. You can use the built-in functionality of the VPC Software to remap all keys from 33 to 128 as a keyboard strokes. Yes, it's ugly but works.
During my research phase before buying them i specifically looked into this case and even reviewed vJoy and Joystick Gremlin. What i found is that the combination works, but it takes some time to configure it right until you know what you are doing. Also there where several mentions that sometimes the vJoy changed the identification of the control which leads to loosing all your bindings. So i did some digging on the Virpil forums and found that they have removed their previous working solution which virtually separates the joystick to a several devices with 32 buttons each and after some users demanded a fix they introduced the keyboard remapping. If i remember correctly this is again a temporary solution as they are working on some other more permanent method for doing this.
With this method i now have all my buttons from the throttle visible to the game, also all the B1-B6 buttons which are bound to mode selector in all 5 modes (which adds 24 additional buttons). I currently have 83 buttons visible and usable on my throttle and yeah i haven't bind them all yet.
If FDev finally decides to fix this 32 button limit in Odissey will be really nice.

 

[virosh]

They had that split feature once, but have since removed it, as apparently it caused too many issues, like loss of mappings. As far as I understand it, they redesigned it so that buttons 33+ can now be mapped to the keyboard, as virosh said above. That's good enough for me if it works properly.

I didn't have time yesterday, but today I'll test the ~16cm palm rest height to see whether I can fly comfortably like that. Maybe just put a book under my stick or something.

If I do decide to buy the Virpils, I'll definitely get the CosmoSim Cams for the stick as well. I think I'll make my decision within the week.

By the way, if you order them now - prepare for some wait. I waited two months until mine have arrived.

 

[SharkBiscuit]

btw, you don't need to map 33 to 128 to keys. In the Virpil software just set the 3x POV hats to be actual 4-way POV's (rather than each being 4 discreet Button bindings for each direction). They default that way, which is annoying. But that saves you 12 buttons worth, since they become 3 POV's instead (not buttons, not part of the 32). With the Alpha you'll then be under the 32 buttons limit.

 

[virosh]

btw, you don't need to map 33 to 128 to keys. In the Virpil software just set the 3x POV hats to be actual 4-way POV's (rather than each being 4 discreet Button bindings for each direction). They default that way, which is annoying. But that saves you 12 buttons worth, since they become 3 POV's instead (not buttons, not part of the 32). With the Alpha you'll then be under the 32 buttons limit.

The ALPHA has exactly 31 buttons with it's default configuration, so no problem there. The issue is with the throttle as it has way more buttons. Also i really like having a button on my hats, so the default way works for me.

The annoying thing for me was the toggle switches T1-T4 on the throttle as by default they are configured in a way that doesn't make any sense.
The initial config is that the switch works only one way and it's constantly pressed. So if i want to use this as let's say landing gear, i need to flip the switch down to activate landing gear, then i need to flip it up and down again to bring the landing gear back up, and then again i need to flip it up so it's ready for the next time i need the landing gear...

After some digging i found that it's better to configure these switches as a "Toggle ON" buttons on both sides from the VPC software. Now when i flip the switch down, the landing gear goes down, when i flip it back up the landing gear goes up. The only downside of this setup is that you need to bind both buttons of a single switch to the function you want them to perform, which is not an issue for me.

 

[SharkBiscuit]

Oh yeah, more challenging for a throttle for sure. But you will still save a significant number of buttons by making them POVs in the virpil software. You don’t lose the POV clicks either. That’s a seperate button regardless.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

I see it'd take some initial configuration before the Virpil setup can be ready for use, even aside from the 32-button limit thing. But that's fine I think.

I just put a book under my Logitech X56 stick, raising the palm rest to about 16.5cm, which should be about right to simulate the height of the Virpil Constellation Alpha. It feels a bit strange, but I think I can work with that. May just need to adjust my chair to a slightly higher position and I should be good to go.

@virosh Yes, I am aware of the waiting time. Actually, I was thinking it'd probably take around 3 months or so. Though I've seen some people who only had to wait for 3-4 weeks, might be a matter of luck too, I guess.

I'll sleep one more night over it and make my decision tomorrow I think.

Edit: I just noticed that the E1 & E2 on the Virpil throttle base are rotary dials and not analog ones like on the X56. I do lots and lots of FSS scanning, so the way I use this is to pull the throttle all the way back to zero, where my thumb can easily reach the analog dials on the base. Then I use those two to tune in on the individual "spectrum lines" on the FSS. I guess this won't work with rotary dials anymore.

How do you guys use the FSS with the Virpils (when doing exploration)?

 

[Der Zeitgeist]

How do you guys use the FSS with the Virpils (when doing exploration)?

I use the Virpil Constellation Alpha on a WarBRD base (together with a CH Pro Throttle, although I'm looking to get a new throttle at some point) and I tried out various options to use the FSS. Pitch and Yaw are just the normal joystick axes for me. The manual zoom is on the Alpha mousewheel thingy (I don't use this a lot, though), and for tuning I went with the joystick analog ministick at first, but then I tried using the joystick rudder-twist Z-axis and this works surprisingy well. The trigger zooms in on a target, and the pinky button zooms out one stage of zoom.
That way, I can do all of my FSS scanning without having to move around my fingers too much, which greatly speeds up the process.

 

[virosh]

How do you guys use the FSS with the Virpils (when doing exploration)?

I use a combination of buttons on the ALPHA and on the Throttle for the FSS. The Pitch and Yaw are bound on the ALPHA Y and X axes. Also for the tuning i use a hat switch and the analog ministick on the ALPHA (bound on the axis). It can move quite fast from one side to the other and with a little practice the tuning can become very precise. I used only the hat at the beginning but now i use the ministick only.
In my previous setup i used one hat and the rudder pedals for the fine tuning. The problem with the pedals is that if you wish to move quickly from HMC to Gas Giants - you can't. The Yaw axis is slow and this was the reason i decided to rebind this to the analog ministick.
For the zoom in i use the thumb-hat on the ALPHA as a button and for the zoom out i use again a hat as a button but on the throttle.
I was using the pinky button as a zoom out at the beginning, but this had led to some strain in my right hand during play so, found out that using my other hand for this is much comfortable.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

Ah right. That sounds pretty good. For zoom I'd probably use a rotary encoder dial though, as I'm already used to that - it's currently bound to the pinky finger dial on my throttle, and the MT-50CM3 throttle has a similar dial right there.

After a bit more testing I'm now considering the desk mounts though, as d8veh suggested, V3-S for the stick and V3 Mini + adapter for the throttle. This makes the whole thing even more expensive, but would allow for the stick to be at a more comfortable, lower position. I've only just now noticed that the mounts have quick release clamps instead of screws, so mounting should be super fast, too.

That would put me farther away from the keyboard, but typically I only need it for centering VR (edit: maybe I can map that to a button on the throttle), so it should be fine.

 

[virosh]

Ah right. That sounds pretty good. For zoom I'd probably use a rotary encoder dial though, as I'm already used to that - it's currently bound to the pinky finger dial on my throttle, and the MT-50CM3 throttle has a similar dial right there.

After a bit more testing I'm now considering the desk mounts though, as d8veh suggested, V3-S for the stick and V3 Mini + adapter for the throttle. This makes the whole thing even more expensive, but would allow for the stick to be at a more comfortable, lower position. I've only just now noticed that the mounts have quick release clamps instead of screws, so mounting should be super fast, too.

That would put me farther away from the keyboard, but typically I only need it for centering VR (edit: maybe I can map that to a button on the throttle), so it should be fine.

If you go for the desk mounts i would suggest you go for the large one for the joystick. The difference in the price is not that much but it will provide you with more options for height adjustments.
For the throttle you may go with the small one but note that you will need the V2/V3 Adapter to mount it.
If you are going for the WarBRD base, note that you will also need an adapter to mount it on the desk mounts.

The quick release clamps are really good. It makes setting your controls on the desk real quick, however they come without instructions and two additional screws which left me pondering for a few minutes how to adjust the tension.

I use a button on my throttle to center the HMD. I used the same thing to center my EDTracker before i got to VR. It's much easier and you don't need the keyboard for this.