Make it hard

[Morbad]

I've pointed out the pay-to-winness of Horizons before.

its not like i need to take an engineered ship into the base game.. why would i? For what gain?

Because it makes everything faster and easier, which, if you have any goals--other than flying a non-Engineered vessel for nostalgic or self-handicapping reasons--allows one to complete those goals more quickly.

given those three points, suggesting that people dont engineer their ships so they can get PvE challenge is suggesting they sign themselves up to being target practice in PvP.

Most responses to this will revolve around PvP being optional and point out that you can just take your CMDR to an isolated area or remain in Solo/PG.

Personally, I think self-handicapping to find an appropriate non-PvP challenge is an absurdity, but I don't feel the risk of a hostile CMDR encounter is any reason to avoid having a non-Engineered vessel...the unmodded Viper III I use to RES hunt has never been used in any mode other than Open and isn't likely to get shot down no matter who or what attacks it...not that any CMDRs ever do, as they expect it to be fully Engineered and thus far too fast to be shot down. I might have to be more cautious in a deathtrap of a ship though.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Starting to dawn on me that most whined about topics basically boil down to engineering...

No the most whined about topic is modes, usually moaned about by those folk who consider that anyone not in open is hiding... Open makes you a "REAL MAN / WOMAN / THING!" you know

This is a source of constant amusement for me

 

[Cosmik_Debris]

I've pointed out the pay-to-winness of Horizons before.

Most responses to this will revolve around PvP being optional and point out that you can just take your CMDR to an isolated area or remain in Solo/PG.

Personally, I think self-handicapping to find an appropriate non-PvP challenge is an absurdity, but I don't feel the risk of a hostile CMDR encounter is any reason to avoid having a non-Engineered vessel...the unmodded Viper III I use to RES hunt has never been used in any mode other than Open and isn't likely to get shot down no matter who or what attacks it...not that any CMDRs ever do, as they expect it to be fully Engineered and thus far too fast to be shot down. I might have to be more cautious in a deathtrap of a ship though.

I think its dumb and bad for the game that PvP can be made optional, so i never use Solo or PG. (please note i dont expect that to change and im not arguing for it to change, too far down that road anyway).

 

[Old Duck]

For crying out loud. How is this complex to understand?

Players can attack players
Players without engineering will get instantly obliterated by those with
Players that attack players will almost certainly have engineered their ships

given those three points, suggesting that people dont engineer their ships so they can get PvE challenge is suggesting they sign themselves up to being target practice in PvP.

Git gud noob.

 

[Morbad]

I think its dumb and bad for the game that PvP can be made optional, so i never use Solo or PG. (please note i dont expect that to change and im not arguing for it to change, too far down that road anyway).

I feel similarly, but it's always been possible to avoid direct PvP, and the game has neither the network model, nor the degree of rule enforcement necessary, to support the gameplay we'd find ideal.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I think its dumb and bad for the game that PvP can be made optional...

For the majority of the playerbase the opposite is considered.

ETA: Sourced from the very same Dev post that stated the majority play in open - but a minority are involved in PvP activity.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I've pointed out the pay-to-winness of Horizons before.

Personally i think its long past the time where they should merge Horizons with the base game. The arrival of Odyssey is the perfect time to do that.

Ok, some people might be still on potato PCs, so there should still be an option to play without Horizons and its associated components, but it would get almost everyone on a level playing field then.

FD then should avoid partitioning player power levels like this again.

As for the topic, as we've seen from what FD have done with combat zones, they don't make NPCs harder, they just make them bullet sponges. Yeah, Dangerous and above get engineered modules, but its not usually a big issue as long as you have a decently engineered combat ship yourself. If not doing combat and just running, then again, its not usually an issue, you don't stick around to get shot at much.

Of course, it all depends on access to engineering.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I think its dumb and bad for the game that PvP can be made optional, so i never use Solo or PG. (please note i dont expect that to change and im not arguing for it to change, too far down that road anyway).

And i think it was a good design decision, but didn't go far enough. They should have made 2 separate servers. One with PvP and one without.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Also, good example of someone who feels very different to OP here

Okay seriously, WHAT THE HELL is with combat these days???

Okay look, some of you might be thinking "oh look, another combat-is-broken thread", but I just felt like I really needed to vent right now. Hopefully that's okay. a few weeks ago I came back to Elite after a significant break and I noticed combat had gotten significantly harder than before, so...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[Crasharr]

No the most whined about topic is modes, usually moaned about by those folk who consider that anyone not in open is hiding... Open makes you a "REAL MAN / WOMAN / THING!" you know

This is a source of constant amusement for me

Ohh you mean like this:

I think its dumb and bad for the game that PvP can be made optional, so i never use Solo or PG. (please note i dont expect that to change and im not arguing for it to change, too far down that road anyway).

Thats an impressive crystal ball you have there CMDR

 

[Rubbernuke]

Also, good example of someone who feels very different to OP here

Okay seriously, WHAT THE HELL is with combat these days???

Okay look, some of you might be thinking "oh look, another combat-is-broken thread", but I just felt like I really needed to vent right now. Hopefully that's okay. a few weeks ago I came back to Elite after a significant break and I noticed combat had gotten significantly harder than before, so...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Without knowing I wonder if they scanned the target and assessed its capability, took into account its rank, thought about starting smaller (since they took a break) or just saw a ship and went for it.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Without knowing I wonder if they scanned the target and assessed its capability, took into account its rank, thought about starting smaller (since they took a break) or just saw a ship and went for it.

I think (from a DM to the poster) it was a mix of all of that being left undone, I don't think lack of ability particularly - more unaware of the difference engineering has made to even NPC's these days

ETA: I offered assistance in catching up with the 'new' stuff - Guardian, Thargoid & Engineering etc.

 

[Crasharr]

Without knowing I wonder if they scanned the target and assessed its capability, took into account its rank, thought about starting smaller (since they took a break) or just saw a ship and went for it.

Some people enjoy a challenge...

 

[Arry]

Anyone remember some time back when the npc's were actually dangerous, and subsequently got nerfed? Would like to see them back and think they would fit the game nicely now.

This would 'fit' your own game nicely.

However: Let me refer you to this thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/okay-seriously-what-the-hell-is-with-combat-these-days.550271/

 

[Rat Catcher]

This would 'fit' your own game nicely.

However: Let me refer you to this thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/okay-seriously-what-the-hell-is-with-combat-these-days.550271/

The post below is fairly representative of the minority view that calls for 'tougher NPC' solely as, in order to be part of the PvP contingent, they have to build massively overpowered ships in order to on the same level as the rest of the group.

For any player not in the least interested in participating in PvP an average PvE build (which can actually carry a little cargo and be able to jump more than a couple of LY) might find plenty of 'challenge' in the current NPC behaviour.

For crying out loud. How is this complex to understand?

Players can attack players
Players without engineering will get instantly obliterated by those with
Players that attack players will almost certainly have engineered their ships

given those three points, suggesting that people dont engineer their ships so they can get PvE challenge is suggesting they sign themselves up to being target practice in PvP.

 

[Crasharr]

The post below is fairly representative of the minority view that calls for 'tougher NPC' solely as, in order to be part of the PvP contingent, they have to build massively overpowered ships in order to on the same level as the rest of the group.

For any player not in the least interested in participating in PvP an average PvE build (which can actually carry a little cargo and be able to jump more than a couple of LY) might find plenty of 'challenge' in the current NPC behaviour.

Just to toot my own horn, I came up with the solution of removing stackable modules, so no more shield boosters, armor plates, fighter hangars, shield banks etc stacking. Only cargo space obviously. IMHO that would allow more people to play open as the notorious murder boats would be far less impervious to attacks and level the playing field somewhat, while also returning a modicum of challenging content as your engineered ships are still strong but no longer godlike. Personally i would consider playing open more if this were the case, if I'd feel I'd have something of a fighting chance I would enjoy the pucker-factor of gankers.

Besides, as i understand ED uses instancing with a max of 32 commanders per instance? Well the galaxy is huge, ergo this game really doesnt cater well to pvp in those regards.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Some people enjoy a challenge...

Some people say they enjoy a challenge but don't do anything to get that challenge. They sit there complaining that they can kill anything easily in their death machines. And as has been noted, like with many games, the biggest challenge can be found in the form of PvP.

Its like playing Command and Comquer on easy mode and complaining that its too easy.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Just to toot my own horn, I came up with the solution of removing stackable modules, so no more shield boosters, armor plates, fighter hangars, shield banks etc stacking. Only cargo space obviously. IMHO that would allow more people to play open as the notorious murder boats would be far less impervious to attacks and level the playing field somewhat, while also returning a modicum of challenging content as your engineered ships are still strong but no longer godlike. Personally i would consider playing open more if this were the case, if I'd feel I'd have something of a fighting chance I would enjoy the pucker-factor of gankers.

Besides, as i understand ED uses instancing with a max of 32 commanders per instance? Well the galaxy is huge, ergo this game really doesnt cater well to pvp in those regards.

Good suggestion. Perhaps engineering shouldn't be able to stack either. ie: if you apply thermal resistance to your shield and a shield booster, then it only takes the highest value, it doesn't add them.

PS: You can't stack fighter hangars. Only SRV bays.

 

[Old Duck]

Some people say they enjoy a challenge but don't do anything to get that challenge. They sit there complaining that they can kill anything easily in their death machines. And as has been noted, like with many games, the biggest challenge can be found in the form of PvP.

Its like playing Command and Comquer on easy mode and complaining that its too easy.

The roads are too easy, make them harder!

 

[Morbad]

For any player not in the least interested in participating in PvP an average PvE build (which can actually carry a little cargo and be able to jump more than a couple of LY) might find plenty of 'challenge' in the current NPC behaviour.

This ship holds 512 tons of cargo and can jump ~30ly:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AadDU6fMo2s


It can be interdicted a half dozen times by elite FDLs, corvette, anaconda, and T-10 NPCs, submit to every single interdiction, destroy every NPC interdictor, and make it to it's mission destination where station security cannot ever find the 200 meter long smuggler before it successfully docks with trivial damage, in time to get the bonus.

Some people say they enjoy a challenge but don't do anything to get that challenge. They sit there complaining that they can kill anything easily in their death machines. And as has been noted, like with many games, the biggest challenge can be found in the form of PvP.

Its like playing Command and Comquer on easy mode and complaining that its too easy.

The problem is having to go out of my way to find challenges when I should have to go out of my way to overcome them.

For me to be challenged as a player, I have to play a far more reckless character than I enjoy playing. Deliberately making mistakes, constantly passing up opportunities, and otherwise selecting less than the best option from my CMDR's perspective, are all problems, not solutions.