Make Open Play matter - Power Play and BGS should be influenced only in open

[Phoenix_Dfire]

1: Your last line "a simple grind gains an extra dimension" makes sense to you but the fact is that many, many players don't want what you'd consider to be an extra dimension. These players consider dealing with gankers to be the real grind in the game.

But that's the point. When the Powerplay people were on Lave Radio, it was a resounding yes to open only. Sandro posted that it is intended for consensual PVP, which only works in open only. The idea is when you sign up for PP you should expect PVP if you see an unfriendly player.

4: Solo/Group play isn't the problem, the problem is the expectation that some players have to set up comprehensive blockades or to win battles simply by ganking undergeared ships. Even without Solo/Group play a simple block list/instancing issues would keep any of that happening with any real impact anyways. In short, the game steps on your ideal in multiple layers - it really is built into the core of the game.

I'd recommend that your faction up its political game.
Court PvE haulers instead of viewing everyone without a pimped out Corvette as a total waste of time.
Maybe the policy of "kill everything that ain't us" was never intended to be rewarded by the game?

No, you use a ship that can outrun a corvette and take the punishment for the few seconds while you are in the big ship's range. You cannot use a simple min max trading vessel in that kind of environment, or you bring a wing of your faction to distract the corvette while you run for it. It's similar kind of environment for when the Hutton truckers did their mug runs and were attacked by the code. In this kind of gameplay, you are not a trader delivering leaflets, you are a blockade runner, more Han Solo and less Postman Pat.

The main issue is that someone always has to be be the bottom run, the prey that everyone is after. You have to make that gameplay interesting otherwise without that bottom level, the game mode collapses

 

[Wargfoot]

You are mixing up ED genrally with PP. In PP the only options you have are hauling prep or forts , UM and either combat expansions / hauling expansions. PvE is the harvesting side- without a PvP component this harvesting has a 100% delivery rate which is silly since no PP NPC fights back to challenge you.

Then I'd ask: Why don't the haulers find your PvP squad's involvement to be interesting?

It is funny that you guys repeatedly point out that hauling stuff for hours on end would be a boring grind and yet when it comes to choosing that boring grind with you vs. choosing that boring grind without you the choice for many is obvious. Maybe the haulers are having fun without you? I don't state that as an accusation but rather to suggest that the solution to the problem is to consider what would make it entertaining for a hauler to take those kinds of risks.

I recommend you actually play Powerplay first for a while.

Fair enough.
Out of curiosity, how much time have you spent hauling cargo only to get face rolled by a wing of gankers?

So, by your logic I should entice players to grind in a feature thats been stymied by...uneventful grinding?

And yet, as I mentioned before, players are choosing the grinding over the wonderful and engaging PvP you have offered.
Why is that?

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

Then I'd ask: Why don't the haulers find your PvP squad's involvement to be interesting?

It is funny that you guys repeatedly point out that hauling stuff for hours on end would be a boring grind and yet when it comes to choosing that boring grind with you vs. choosing that boring grind without you the choice for many is obvious. Maybe the haulers are having fun without you? I don't state that as an accusation but rather to suggest that the solution to the problem is to consider what would make it entertaining for a hauler to take those kinds of risks.


Fair enough.
Out of curiosity, how much time have you spent hauling cargo only to get face rolled by a wing of gankers?


And yet, as I mentioned before, players are choosing the grinding over the wonderful and engaging PvP you have offered.
Why is that?

Well, rule one is; don't fly a hauler.
Rule two; they arn't gankers, they are opposing players who's job is to try and stop you.
Rule c, or that little 'I' thing they use sometimes; have a fast ship which will outrun them, with shields strong enough to take a few hits (never min/max your ship).
Finally, ask for some wingmen from the faction discod to escort you in and watch the furball as you run away.

TLDR : be prepared!!

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think you are mixing up what PP is like now with what it might be like.

Then I'd ask: Why don't the haulers find your PvP squad's involvement to be interesting?

Haulers would love that 'mighty PvP squad' because they would be the ones defending them, or causing enough distractions for them to slip past- or, those PvP players would themsleves be transporting fort materials.

It is funny that you guys repeatedly point out that hauling stuff for hours on end would be a boring grind and yet when it comes to choosing that boring grind with you vs. choosing that boring grind without you the choice for many is obvious. Maybe the haulers are having fun without you? I don't state that as an accusation but rather to suggest that the solution to the problem is to consider what would make it entertaining for a hauler to take those kinds of risks.

Currently you have no choice because one route is simply more efficient than the rest.

This is the whole point of Open Powerplay- its pretty much taking Rinzlers Git Gud in Trading and making that every potential run. In turn it means your power is slower fortifying, which means larger powers might have difficulty forting everything (unlike now where fortifying is easy). If you want a large power, then you have to work for it and take the risks which are variable based on the system in question- some systems are safe while others not so much. This then draws on smaller or faster ships, and makes use of combat pilots.

Fair enough.
Out of curiosity, how much time have you spent hauling cargo only to get face rolled by a wing of gankers?

I'd suggest asking a Power like Winters how they get on- they haul to expand as well, and they play in Open. Plus I'm good enough to know when to run. Sometimes I lose, but thats part of the game.

And yet, as I mentioned before, players are choosing the grinding over the wonderful and engaging PvP you have offered.
Why is that?

Because that is the choice they currently have, and that its the easiest, most efficient route. Solo is 99.9% safe from PP NPCs because hardly any of them are proactive in opposing you haul. As I've written extensively elsewhere, the gameplay of having players directly oppose you in Open only, or even the threat of them will reduce delivery efficency making each run less certain. So, rather than routine, guaranteed fortification you have the ability to plan and disrupt other powers directly.

 

[Mohrgan]

Well, rule one is; don't fly a hauler.
Rule two; they arn't gankers, they are opposing players who's job is to try and stop you.
Rule c, or that little 'I' thing they use sometimes; have a fast ship which will outrun them, with shields strong enough to take a few hits (never min/max your ship).
Finally, ask for some wingmen from the faction discod to escort you in and watch the furball as you run away.

TLDR : be prepared!!

All reasonable advice, but you didn't even touch on the actual question posed. The question was 'Why don;t the haulers, not the ship but those engaged in that activity, enjoy the PvP aspect of PP'?

 

[Rubbernuke]

All reasonable advice, but you didn't even touch on the actual question posed. The question was 'Why don;t the haulers, not the ship but those engaged in that activity, enjoy the PvP aspect of PP'?

The answer would be that Open Powerplay is a repositioning of the feature- its taking what exists from supporting factions via the BGS and then adding on extra complications.

It would mean that some would not like the change, while it would appeal to others because of that repositioning. It would be down to FD to judge if the loss balances the gain, and where they see Powerplay fitting in (if at all) going forwards.

 

[Mohrgan]

The answer would be that Open Powerplay is a repositioning of the feature- its taking what exists from supporting factions via the BGS and then adding on extra complications.

It would mean that some would not like the change, while it would appeal to others because of that repositioning. It would be down to FD to judge if the loss balances the gain, and where they see Powerplay fitting in (if at all) going forwards.

Currently, why don't the trader types playing PP take advantage of PvP game play? I mean that's a generalization, but it's the basis of your complaint. And, why wasn't PvP integrated into PP from the beginning if it was supposed to be THE PvP feature?

In an attempt to salvage PP, Sandro suggested making it the PvP-centric activity within the game. They even went so far as to drop everyone's pledges and make them re-pledge with the PvP proviso. What happen then? Nothing. I suggest that FD have already judged it.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

All reasonable advice, but you didn't even touch on the actual question posed. The question was 'Why don;t the haulers, not the ship but those engaged in that activity, enjoy the PvP aspect of PP'?

I answered that one a few posts ago from my point of view. I can't speak for others that haul, but You have to have the mentality of a blockade runner/ smuggler if your going to haul in Powerplay. Most people came at hauling with a min/max trader when they tried it out and it didn't work for them. It's too easy to be interdicted and destroyed if you don't have the right setup.

Escaping from a interdiction, or an ambush if the interdiction has failed, can be just as exciting as those trying to stop you.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Currently, why don't the trader types playing PP take advantage of PvP game play? I mean that's a generalization, but it's the basis of your complaint. And, why wasn't PvP integrated into PP from the beginning if it was supposed to be THE PvP feature?

In an attempt to salvage PP, Sandro suggested making it the PvP-centric activity withing the game. They even went so far as to drop everyone's pledges and make them re-pledge with the PvP proviso. What happen then? Nothing. I suggest that FD have already judged it.

In the beginning there was more PvP features that got abused (mainly as they were poorly thought out) via things like collusion piracy. In the early cycles this was the atom bomb exploit. I would also say that FD themselves got a bit confused, since they told us things like Collapse were in, only to tell us a few weeks later that was false. Without exploits, PP piracy would make sense.

Currently there is no need for PvP because the easiest way to play is in Solo for hauling, and PG for combat expansions.

Maybe FD have thought against it- however they have done nothing else in the mean time. 95% of Sandros proposal could have been done yesterday in the update but to what end? All those changes do is staunch 5C and that only plays to the people who engage in PP now- a number that dwindles each week because nothing is done and nothing new is added. The only part of that proposal that would add any new gameplay is the Open component.

 

[Mohrgan]

I answered that one a few posts ago from my point of view. I can't speak for others that haul, but You have to have the mentality of a blockade runner/ smuggler if your going to haul in Powerplay. Most people came at hauling with a min/max trader when they tried it out and it didn't work for them. It's too easy to be interdicted and destroyed if you don't have the right setup.

Escaping from a interdiction, or an ambush if the interdiction has failed, can be just as exciting as those trying to stop you.

With all of that, why don't more engage? Could it be that not everyone sees the game as you do? Maybe other players have other motivations? Your excitement for what ever content can't be projected on others. You can only expect to play along side those that want to be there.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Wargfoot, I'll play all modes, depending on situation. Like having some kind of delivery mission and some people are having "fun" at my target station, and by fun I mean gank attacks. Well if I get out of situation without getting killed, then after high wake it is menu time and change to solo to get job done without problems.

 

[Mohrgan]

In the beginning there was more PvP features that got abused (mainly as they were poorly thought out) via things like collusion piracy. In the early cycles this was the atom bomb exploit. I would also say that FD themselves got a bit confused, since they told us things like Collapse were in, only to tell us a few weeks later that was false. Without exploits, PP piracy would make sense.

Currently there is no need for PvP because the easiest way to play is in Solo for hauling, and PG for combat expansions.

Maybe FD have thought against it- however they have done nothing else in the mean time. 95% of Sandros proposal could have been done yesterday in the update but to what end? All those changes do is staunch 5C and that only plays to the people who engage in PP now- a number that dwindles each week because nothing is done and nothing new is added. The only part of that proposal that would add any new gameplay is the Open component.

It wouldn't add any game play. Those not interested in PvP would just un-pledge and move on. You'd be right back where you are now, with less activity overall. PvP is just not that important. There never was a need for PvP. PvP has always been optional. That is integral to the game, and won't be changed. You have to accept and learn to enjoy your style of play, with those that enjoy it as well.

Even when C&P was removed from PP opponents, nothing changed. Most peeps just don;t go for PvP.

 

[Brrokk]

With all of that, why don't more engage? Could it be that not everyone sees the game as you do? Maybe other players have other motivations? Your excitement for what ever content can't be projected on others. You can only expect to play along side those that want to be there.

This. All the stated "rules" for what ships to fly etc. would make sense in another game which exists only in some people's heads, but they aren't needed in ED. Playing ED I have the choice to play in that way and get the excitement of running blockades, or choose a different mode (or just play at a different time of day) and have a more relaxing game. That choice is provided to me by design.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

With all of that, why don't more engage? Could it be that not everyone sees the game as you do? Maybe other players have other motivations? Your excitement for what ever content can't be projected on others. You can only expect to play along side those that want to be there.

You already know why people don't engage. Because it needs something to fix the 5C and fix the perception of just being a postman pat simulator for min/max traders. Why do you think Pvt / solo is popular in Powerplay? Because you can do it with a fat trader and get the bonuses quicker. I personally believe that the way to fix that issue is to put the game mode into open only, which is what this long, long, long thread is all about. You have to understand that this about turning the mode into a consensual PVP experience, so privateers and blockade runners know what they've signed up for. I used those terms instead of trader, pirate or ganker because that's really the attitude that's needed to get the game mode going.

Now open only, could mean what Sandro has specified but I would prefer it to mean that only actions carried out in open effect the PBS (Powerplay Background Simulation), so players who still want their equipment or faction bonus can get them, but they can't effect which systems a going to change hands that cycle. However, as has been said before, this conversation has been going on for more than a year and if frontier had wanted to fix Powerplay they would have done it by now.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

For many people powerplay is just like engineering. Way to grind some wanted good stuff, and faster and with less hassle you get it, better. I did it for getting prismatic shields. And yes I did it all in solo. I could not care less of PP itself, I just wanted stuff. After I got what I wanted, good bye Aisling Duval.

 

[Mohrgan]

You already know why people don't engage. Because it needs something to fix the 5C and fix the perception of just being a postman pat simulator for min/max traders. Why do you think Pvt / solo is popular in Powerplay? Because you can do it with a fat trader and get the bonuses quicker. I personally believe that the way to fix that issue is to put the game mode into open only, which is what this long, long, long thread is all about. You have to understand that this about turning the mode into a consensual PVP experience, so privateers and blockade runners know what they've signed up for. I used those terms instead of trader, pirate or ganker because that's really the attitude that's needed to get the game mode going.

Now open only, could mean what Sandro has specified but I would prefer it to mean that only actions carried out in open effect the PBS (Powerplay Background Simulation), so players who still want their equipment or faction bonus can get them, but they can't effect which systems a going to change hands that cycle. However, as has been said before, this conversation has been going on for more than a year and if frontier had wanted to fix Powerplay they would have done it by now.

That would just leave you right where you are now. Peeps only in it for the loot would stay out of open. Those that want to duke it out, would do that. The only noticeable change would be less actual activity. What would actually make blockade runners want to run what hardly could be called a blockade? There is so much mistaken about how this actually works, in your proposition.

Those players seeking the PP-PvP experience are already. Those that aren't, aren't. The crux of this is accepting that you can only play alongside those that enjoy that game play. Attempting to force PvP on players would not improve involvement.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

For many people powerplay is just like engineering. Way to grind some wanted good stuff, and faster and with less hassle you get it, better. I did it for getting prismatic shields. And yes I did it all in solo. I could not care less of PP itself, I just wanted stuff. After I got what I wanted, good bye Aisling Duval.

It's one of the reasons that people prefer to play the BGS, because they're playing for their faction they've chosen, but there's no reward or Bonuses for playing the BGS. What you do have which makes the BSG more attractive is that you can run missions for your faction to help them. That is something that was missing from Powerplay, which I think Sandro was considering adding in but never happened.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

BGS stuff is kind of role play, and well something I understand, and respect. Like I'm going to Colonia and probably unload my juuge load of exploration data in solo mode. But I'm not going to do that in Carcosa, as some people would not like it, and I would not like to try to do it in open

 

[Wargfoot]

BTW, let's clear up this misconception: Solo play isn't PvP.

In a 200 meter foot race I'm not allowed to punch the guy in the lane next to me.
Despite the fact we're instanced in our own lanes the race is still very much player vs. player - it just isn't player vs. player that allows for any sort of violence.

The same is true with Power Play.
The space truckers might be in solo instances and there might not be any violence but it is still very much player vs. player.
Some people enjoy player vs. player of the track and field variety and others enjoy player vs. player of the boxing variety.

So as Power Play is considered the notion that Solo/Group play isn't full on PvP needs to be discarded.
There is more to PvP then lolz...gank.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It wouldn't add any game play.

I've just explained how it adds a whole new dimension to what is currently grind races. Rather than haul and shoot NPCs you then have to contend with players trying to directly interfere with your powers plans. Whereas PP NPCs don't do anything like chase you, or oppose you, players do. And since its collective teamplay, its up to you to organise and help each other, unlike now where its a simple "I'll do X merits" while trying not to fall asleep.

Those not interested in PvP would just un-pledge and move on. You'd be right back where you are now, with less activity overall.

They might. But you don't know that- you don't know that other players might come in. Until its done you can't really say. Powerplay is played seriously by about 1000 players- that suggests the current design has failed.

PvP is just not that important. There never was a need for PvP. PvP has always been optional. That is integral to the game, and won't be changed. You have to accept and learn to enjoy your style of play, with those that enjoy it as well.

The problem is, without Open only what use is Powerplay? Its a 5 year old variant of the BGS with less to do that costs you money to engage in. If FD want to appeal to more players, rather than duplicate what you already have why not branch out? Otherwise what use are 50% of engineered weapons and effects that are PvP slanted?

Even when C&P was removed from PP opponents, nothing changed. Most peeps just don;t go for PvP.

Most peeps just don;t go for PvP.

How do you know that?

You still get bounties for killing PP NPCs and players. There was more angst from pledges about PP NPCs than anything else. Because of that they got tuned down so they do even less. A long standing bug still prevents PP NPCs hunting you after defection having interdictors- so they can't even stop you.[/QUOTE]