Make Solo Powerplay PvE dangerous (targeted interdcitions using existing mechanics)

[Rubbernuke]

1. a CZ is a place you choose to go. there are other options to win a war if you don't want to that.
2. while CZ ships got upped in terms of hitpoints, none feature engineering, besides the targets of CZ objetives (spec ops wing, enemy captain). CZ objective targets don't even count for CZ missions, so enganging them is very optional. and objective is worth ~4 shipkills.
the exampel "but CZ ships where upped" is just not very good.

your suggestion is upping/introducing NPC, who should interdict players while doing powerplay, with increasing engineering by players powerplay rank.

again - the situation would be very different, if you'd suggest having people flying non-engineered adders, eagles and sidey at rank 5.
that would not gate rank 5 powerplay to horizon running commanders. it would certainly make things harder in all modes. and it would make most, if not all npc for all powerplayers in all modes more challenging.

as for ATR - yes, that is a good exampel. ATR in fact gate pve murdering BGS gameplay to people running engineered ships. still - you can of course leave the controlling factions space. and you can choose other means for similar or even more effect when influencing the BGS than a murder spree. i see no such suggestion in yours.

probably as you suspect as i do, that if your suggestion would include a way to bypass those "special agaents", most players would do it.

You are not thinking globally though- a CZ is a local battle- project that out to the bubble in size and it encompasses Powerplays game 'board'. Plus, Powerplay has places you have to go to as well- combat expansions (themed CZs), expansions, preparation areas and capitals, as well as the BGS aspect.

I mention spec ops because thats how it should be- ships equal or better than yours stalking you. These NPCs have to make you sweat, they can't be anything other than that.

I don't agree with having players in smaller ships- firstly, why after years of engineering and tuning ships you throw that away? Powerplay should test you, your ship and your game knowledge, it should offer something above and beyond a CZ, wing mission, Thargoid or CG. Otherwise, whats the point?

The difference for this idea is that you can't switch off ATR like you can in the game- playing to a level keeps that level of threat consistent and is persistent- the only way to stop them is to back off (as its scaled to effort).

 

[Rubbernuke]

actually parts of it where included in an update. if you don't do powerplay at the moment (for exampel having leaflets in your hold), powerplay NPC won't attack you. i assume the suggestion here followed the same.

Yes- this idea follows that to a logical conclusion- if you do nothing, they do nothing back. Its only when you start getting to rank 5 and tens of thousands of merits they get interested in you.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No.

Thank goodness for that, because thats potty.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Thank goodness for that, because thats potty.

Quite.

 

[goemon]

I mention spec ops because thats how it should be- ships equal or better than yours stalking you.

yes, and i think exactly that kind of "stalking" without an opt-out inside of powerplay is a problem with the suggestion.

I don't agree with having players in smaller ships- ... Powerplay should test you ... and your game knowledge, it should offer something above and beyond a CZ, wing mission, Thargoid or CG. Otherwise, whats the point?

well, for sure, flying an adder for mahon would:
1. test you
2. your game knowledge (flying the wrong ship for the right job is exactly where it is tested, don't you think?)
3. offer something above and beyond CZ/wing/...
that would be the point.
it would not test your skills/"skills" of outfitting and engineering a ship, but therefor it wouldn't gate powerplay content behind an engineering wall.

The difference for this idea is that you can't switch off ATR like you can in the game- playing to a level keeps that level of threat consistent and is persistent- the only way to stop them is to back off (as its scaled to effort).

yes, and i think exactly that "the only way to stop them is to back off" from powerplay higher ranks is a problem with the suggestion.

 

[Rubbernuke]

yes, and i think exactly that kind of "stalking" without an opt-out inside of powerplay is a problem with the suggestion.

Why? You are a Rank 5, why should you go without being confronted? People have become lazy due to Powerplays broken mechanics (as seen with its defection police).

well, for sure, flying an adder for mahon would:
1. test you
2. your game knowledge (flying the wrong ship for the right job is exactly where it is tested, don't you think?)
3. offer something above and beyond CZ/wing/...
that would be the point.
it would not test your skills/"skills" of outfitting and engineering a ship, but therefor it wouldn't gate powerplay content behind an engineering wall.

Which is a nice idea, but not for me. I spent far too long building ships that I want to fly, only to watch them gather dust again. Powerplay is about adapting to the situation, if you force people to fortify in something tiny, or slow 'because' (i.e. it follows no in game logic) that will put far more people off.

yes, and i think exactly that "the only way to stop them is to back off" from powerplay higher ranks is a problem with the suggestion.

Which is a problem how? You don't have to fight them, they are there (just like ATR is) to make you move on and keep you moving. Just in this case, you can't game the system like you can with ATR. So you can't become complacent. Without NPCs getting in your face, they can't influence your performance, which is what this is about- Powerplay requiring NPCs to get in your way more.

 

[goemon]

Why? You are a Rank 5, why should you go without being confronted? People have become lazy due to Powerplays broken mechanics (as seen with its defection police).

because it's a game, where people choose their challenge, like it or not. should it be that way? one can differ on that. but clearly your suggestion takes something away from people, who like powerplay and don't like being "stalked/confronted/no way to stop them".

Which is a nice idea, but not for me. I spent far too long building ships that I want to fly

i would love it!
but understood, and fine for me.
but it is okay for you to gate the higher ranks of powerplay behind your level of shipbuilding with its dlc- and time investment?

'because' (i.e. it follows no in game logic)

there surely must be a reason why federal agents fly eagles in the game often? maybe to fly something not to be seen?

Which is a problem how? ...you can't game ... like you can with ATR.

there is the problem in your own words. no way around it. one can't game.

 

[Rubbernuke]

because it's a game, where people choose their challenge, like it or not. should it be that way? one can differ on that. but clearly your suggestion takes something away from people, who like powerplay and don't like being "stalked/confronted/no way to stop them".

Ad its an opt in feature, which is to put it mildly, a 'selfish community goal'- i.e. its an open ended CG between eleven competing powers. If you choose to get a high rank and lots of merits (in that my idea is double gated- rank determines the strength of enemy, merits held / cashed in determines frequency).

Powerplay was released broken with no purpose- what is 'taking away' to you is providing something the wider game does not have.

i would love it!
but understood, and fine for me.
but it is okay for you to gate the higher ranks of powerplay behind your level of shipbuilding with its dlc- and time investment?

Its not a bad idea at all- others have come up with similar (i.e. fixed Powerplay designs for a fighter, bomber, transport) but personally I would like having ship designing / engineering thrown in to add an extra layer.

there surely must be a reason why federal agents fly eagles in the game often? maybe to fly something not to be seen?

Because FD don't realise Eagles are weak More seriously Eagles are low sec vehicles that are not seen as much in medium or high sec. Thus it makes sense to have a variety of Powerplay ships as well- especially from the Powers themselves...the rank and file, the assassins and the defection police. Right now there is no difference in those three groups, they all have the same loadouts and abilities making the game seem 'flat'.

there is the problem in your own words. no way around it. one can't game.

'Game' as in HW out and in to reset ATR. Thats 'gaming' the system (i.e. abusing it).

My suggestion is actually playing the game, and accepting that being good at it has consequences that you can't avoid (like ATR, security, notoriety etc). Why is it that by being effective the game does not push back? If it does not it becomes unsatisfying (like now).

 

[goemon]

to put it more simply.

powerplay is and always was part of the base game and accessible in all modes.
I'm personally not happy with its design and think powerplay would be a very good place for a framework of open only and ingame pvp, because restricting it to a mode would as well come up with the solution to its gate by cooperating.

but gating its higher ranks behind dlc- and time investment in all modes - as it is in this suggestion - is, i think, a bad idea.

i would be fully up for more juicy powerplay npc if
a) those were part of "powerplay missions" (for exampel: missions and wing missions instead of fast tracking by CR)
b) those would scale with access to engineering.
c) if there would be a way to bypass them if you don't like the challenge.

 

[Rubbernuke]

powerplay is and always was part of the base game and accessible in all modes.

Which this won't change.

I'm personally not happy with its design and think powerplay would be a very good place for a framework of open only and ingame pvp, because restricting it to a mode would as well come up with the solution to its gate by cooperating.

I agree, but this proposal is about making Powerplay work across modes better. It needs a better PvE layer to work in short.

but gating its higher ranks behind dlc- and time investment in all modes - as it is in this suggestion - is, i think, a bad idea.

Its not gating it, you can still do it but its more difficult. You yourself play unengineered in CZs.

i would be fully up for more juicy powerplay npc if
a) those were part of "powerplay missions" (for exampel: missions and wing missions instead of fast tracking by CR)
b) those would scale with access to engineering.
c) if there would be a way to bypass them if you don't like the challenge.

I'd love Powerplay missions- in another proposal I do just this and split Solo Powerplay into missions and Open powerplay as it is now:

Powerplay Proposal (strong anti 5C, mode specific, plus other tweaks)

This is a Powerplay overhaul proposal that uses all of Sandros ideas plus a few more based on the 3.x BGS rework to enhance the feature, and employ strong anti 5C measures. Sandro Sammarcos proposal changes are included as they were originally. Problem Powerplay does not function well across...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Re challenge, the only way to avoid it is to not do as much work- or unpledge. It has to be a credible threat otherwise it can't influence anything.

 

[goemon]

. You yourself play unengineered in CZs.

yes, but as said before

• there is no chance to take down special ops or enemy captains in cz with unengineered ships.
• differently to your suggestion it is also unnecessary doing so if you want to win a cz, and it is even unrelated to cz missions.

so that's why i consider your suggestion gating higher powerplay ranks behind a dlc wall at least (not even talking about the timeinvestment to engineer your ship accordingly).

generally i think there for sure is a problem in a competitive setting with people taking the most efficient way, while the promise of powerplay was to cater for a more heated playstyle. it seriously falls short on that.

 

[Rubbernuke]

yes, but as said before

• there is no chance to take down special ops or enemy captains in cz with unengineered ships.
• differently to your suggestion it is also unnecessary doing so if you want to win a cz, and it is even unrelated to cz missions.

so that's why i consider your suggestion gating higher powerplay ranks behind a dlc wall at least (not even talking about the timeinvestment to engineer your ship accordingly).

generally i think there for sure is a problem in a competitive setting with people taking the most efficient way, while the promise of powerplay was to cater for a more heated playstyle. it seriously falls short on that.

The difference is, you don't have to fight these NPCs- you can run away from them or avoid the areas they are in. If anything they are there to go "boo!" and make you always look over your shoulder.

For me, since engineering is now three years old for the game to shun it is crazy, it has to play a role otherwise whats the point of engineering or Powerplay in the wider game? At some point FD will have to move features on, otherwise they wind up like Powerplay which is exactly the same as it was five years ago.

 

[GloatingSwine]

I really don't understand the backlash to Rubbernukes idea here.

My main concern is that it doesn't seem to have the intended effect of spicing up delivery, compared to the previous suggestion of a wider drop zone at stations.

The difference is, you don't have to fight these NPCs- you can run away from them or avoid the areas they are in. If anything they are there to go "boo!" and make you always look over your shoulder.

Your suggestion makes it sound like they spawn everywhere though, so the "areas they are in" is everywhere.

Meanwhile, they aren't comparable to ATR because ATR can be easily avoided by going to Anarchy systems, which are common so there's always one nearby, and notoriety decays really quickly compared to powerplay merits ranks which have a half life of a week.

So you can't wait out the heat, it stays even if you get killed, and you can't avoid it and meaningfully play the game outside of a tiny subset of the galaxy that's currently friendly to you because you get pestered all the time by things you gain nothing and are punished for fighting back against. And meanwhile the thing this is all supposedly targeted at, fat naked cargo haulers winning powerplay fedex races, is the one thing it can't affect.

If that was a mechanic within a version of powerplay where at most one or two powers were hostile at a time, and you had some kind of significant incentive to stay in allied space as well, then it would be okay because the no-go zones would still allow for practical play in the entire rest of the bubble. But in this powerplay system which is basically omnihostile for the majority of factions that doesn't work.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The difference is, you don't have to fight these NPCs- you can run away from them or avoid the areas they are in. If anything they are there to go "boo!" and make you always look over your shoulder.

For me, since engineering is now three years old for the game to shun it is crazy, it has to play a role otherwise whats the point of engineering or Powerplay in the wider game? At some point FD will have to move features on, otherwise they wind up like Powerplay which is exactly the same as it was five years ago.

It just makes the game more grindy is all your suggestion does. And retroactively gating vanilla content behind DLC is very poor practice. It's dishonest.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It just makes the game more grindy is all your suggestion does. And retroactively gating vanilla content behind DLC is very poor practice. It's dishonest.

CZs are vanilla and changed. ATR is universal across editions. Thargoids require unlocking weapons / engineering. The above suggestion is not gating anything- you can still play it.

The game has moved on.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

CZs are vanilla and changed. ATR is universal across editions. Thargoids require unlocking weapons / engineering. The above suggestion is not gating anything- you can still play it.

The game has moved on.

So? I've been complaining about engineers for years. FD screwed players over. Does that mean it's OK to screw them over some more?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

...The above suggestion is not gating anything- you can still play it.

Yes, yes. Technically. It just isn't any fun. Rather than reducing gameplay consider the expression "game development". Maybe it will eventually occur that it involves making something new - instead of repurposing old stuff.

 

[Rubbernuke]

My main concern is that it doesn't seem to have the intended effect of spicing up delivery, compared to the previous suggestion of a wider drop zone at stations.

Making drop zones expand or contract would be great- however this gets flak for impacting more people ironically. I suggested it in a slightly different form before and the thread followed the same pattern here sadly.

Your suggestion makes it sound like they spawn everywhere though, so the "areas they are in" is everywhere.

Spawn rates and frequency can be adjusted based on where you are- but as with all things relating to Powerplay, to make it more plausible you have to make it as basic and easy to implement as possible.

Meanwhile, they aren't comparable to ATR because ATR can be easily avoided by going to Anarchy systems, which are common so there's always one nearby, and notoriety decays really quickly compared to powerplay merits ranks which have a half life of a week.

ATR can be avoided by simply HW out and in again. The whole C + P system is borked and gameable. Its why parts of the game should be harder with more consequences, so that you have a core game that is 'ordinary' but a section that ups that difficulty with actual consequences that you can't duck out of- which then makes the player have to adapt to them using what they have available.

So you can't wait out the heat, it stays even if you get killed, and you can't avoid it and meaningfully play the game outside of a tiny subset of the galaxy that's currently friendly to you because you get pestered all the time by things you gain nothing and are punished for fighting back against. And meanwhile the thing this is all supposedly targeted at, fat naked cargo haulers winning powerplay fedex races, is the one thing it can't affect.

And as we discussed before, interdictions would be more severe with larger ships.

If that was a mechanic within a version of powerplay where at most one or two powers were hostile at a time, and you had some kind of significant incentive to stay in allied space as well, then it would be okay because the no-go zones would still allow for practical play in the entire rest of the bubble. But in this powerplay system which is basically omnihostile for the majority of factions that doesn't work.

I suppose you could limit the hostility to the two adjacent powers in the ranking, perhaps- but again you have powers who are neutral to others- Imps and Feds for example, so its not omnihostile- some powers would have a harder time, but Powerplay is asymmetric.

 

[Rubbernuke]

So? I've been complaining about engineers for years. FD screwed players over. Does that mean it's OK to screw them over some more?

What, by changing a feature that was released half finished five years ago?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yes, yes. Technically. It just isn't any fun. Rather than reducing gameplay consider the expression "game development". Maybe it will eventually occur that it involves making something new - instead of repurposing old stuff.

Welcome to my world- in fact to five years of asking FD to do just that. Blame FD for wanting more and more with less, and leaving a feature fallow for all this time.

Its not reducing gameplay as well if it makes you actually fly your ship- making you check your radar, who is there, how are they flying. Currently you have none of that with the endless hauling, or repetitive farming of NPCs back and forth from combat expansions with nothing else happening.