Make the engineering grind remotely palatable

[Northpin]

Unless you have never relog farmed a guardian site, you're taking a hypocritical stance.

...

Fdev do not call it an exploit, by the bye. They have called it unintended gameplay. There is a very clear difference. One is bannable, the other is not.

I will have to agree with this.
Relogging is part of the game, as much as Unintended it may be
We had relogging CGs - and plenty of them. We have Guardian Sites where relogging is the common gameplay to stock up on materials

There this thing called resetting the instance - some times it's practical do to it by supercruising out then back in, some other time its more practical to do it by relogging.
But it's in the game.


I find it quite interesting that for certain type of resources they employed (longer) respawn timers.
For example Crystalline Shards, Brain Trees and Geo Features - they respawn/replenish on a timer (in Horizons at least, have not checked Odyssey)
So one cannot relog into them - however such sites provide a quite big amount of materials that relogging is usually not needed.

But not Barnacles. They produce 4-5 Meta-Alloys, then relog, then get 4-5 more, then relog.
We had CGs for this, as unbelievable it may be
Or for Encoded data provided by relogging at Jameson's Cobra.

So, they'll well aware of it, way before the first relogging CG [*]
They say it's unintended.
Yet they kept introducing relogging CGs [**]


*[i remember the first fix sometime in January/February 2019 when they fixed HGE so they disappear at a relog to menu even tho they still had timer left, but not from a quit to desktop. IMO the obvious fix for the scarcity of G5 materials would have been to leave the HGE run for the full duration, eventually shortening the timer from 33+ minutes to 5-10 minutes, but allowing one to supercruise out/in and collect materials for the duration of the HGE. No relogging necessary]


**[While applying unfortunate fixes - like all loot disappearing from a Settlement, so God forbid you crash in one, or the recent fix for Ground CZ that puts you back at the last docked station, again God forbid you crash in the CZ. And at the same time, one can still supercruise out then back in to reset an instance - so the fixes does not seem to be aimed to prevent farming, but to slow it down]

 

[Dox Paradox]

I will have to agree with this.
Relogging is part of the game, as much as Unintended it may be
We had relogging CGs - and plenty of them. We have Guardian Sites where relogging is the common gameplay to stock up on materials

There this thing called resetting the instance - some times it's practical do to it by supercruising out then back in, some other time its more practical to do it by relogging.
But it's in the game.


I find it quite interesting that for certain type of resources they employed (longer) respawn timers.
For example Crystalline Shards, Brain Trees and Geo Features - they respawn/replenish on a timer (in Horizons at least, have not checked Odyssey)
So one cannot relog into them - however such sites provide a quite big amount of materials that relogging is usually not needed.

But not Barnacles. They produce 4-5 Meta-Alloys, then relog, then get 4-5 more, then relog.
We had CGs for this, as unbelievable it may be
Or for Encoded data provided by relogging at Jameson's Cobra.

So, they'll well aware of it, way before the first relogging CG [*]
They say it's unintended.
Yet they kept introducing relogging CGs [**]


*[i remember the first fix sometime in January/February 2019 when they fixed HGE so they disappear at a relog to menu even tho they still had timer left, but not from a quit to desktop. IMO the obvious fix for the scarcity of G5 materials would have been to leave the HGE run for the full duration, eventually shortening the timer from 33+ minutes to 5-10 minutes, but allowing one to supercruise out/in and collect materials for the duration of the HGE. No relogging necessary]


**[While applying unfortunate fixes - like all loot disappearing from a Settlement, so God forbid you crash in one, or the recent fix for Ground CZ that puts you back at the last docked station, again God forbid you crash in the CZ. And at the same time, one can still supercruise out then back in to reset an instance - so the fixes does not seem to be aimed to prevent farming, but to slow it down]

Well then FD should think about making the mechanic part of the game, without having to relog.
For instance in CZ upon completion, a timer could run to allow people to safely get out. On the tick, the opposite faction tries anew to take the settlement.
If that require a fade-to-black reinstaciation of the game context so be it, but don't make me log-out as a gameplay mechanic please.

Supercruising out, is ok-ish imo. It stays "in-game".

Ressources and money should be scarce in Elite universe, it's entirely part of the DNA of the title.

 

[Brrokk]

Unless you have never relog farmed a guardian site, you're taking a hypocritical stance.

Either way, if that is your belief, you should remove yourself from the discussion. If you're unable to consider the game as it is, not as you wish it would be, then your input has zero value.

Fdev do not call it an exploit, by the bye. They have called it unintended gameplay. There is a very clear difference. One is bannable, the other is not.






Incorrect. You can get both more kills AND more materials by not picking up the materials and HGE farming, instead.

At the end, the HGE farmer will have BOTH more combat rank/credits, AND more materials. And that is precisely the problem. That should not be the case; the game should be as you describe it, but it is not.

They tried to make it impossible but couldn't. I take that to show me their opinion of it.

But OK, supposed I accept that I can't win this point. Still, which is more efficient? A) Having all the materials I want because I collected them in proper gameplay. B) Not having them so going to a SS and relogging repeatedly. I think the answer is still A. The relogging is just a weird self-inflicted punishment for continually leaving valuable stuff floating in space.

 

[Factabulous]

I will have to agree with this.
Relogging is part of the game, as much as Unintended it may be
We had relogging CGs - and plenty of them. We have Guardian Sites where relogging is the common gameplay to stock up on materials

There this thing called resetting the instance - some times it's practical do to it by supercruising out then back in, some other time its more practical to do it by relogging.
But it's in the game.


I find it quite interesting that for certain type of resources they employed (longer) respawn timers.
For example Crystalline Shards, Brain Trees and Geo Features - they respawn/replenish on a timer (in Horizons at least, have not checked Odyssey)
So one cannot relog into them - however such sites provide a quite big amount of materials that relogging is usually not needed.

But not Barnacles. They produce 4-5 Meta-Alloys, then relog, then get 4-5 more, then relog.
We had CGs for this, as unbelievable it may be
Or for Encoded data provided by relogging at Jameson's Cobra.

So, they'll well aware of it, way before the first relogging CG [*]
They say it's unintended.
Yet they kept introducing relogging CGs [**]


*[i remember the first fix sometime in January/February 2019 when they fixed HGE so they disappear at a relog to menu even tho they still had timer left, but not from a quit to desktop. IMO the obvious fix for the scarcity of G5 materials would have been to leave the HGE run for the full duration, eventually shortening the timer from 33+ minutes to 5-10 minutes, but allowing one to supercruise out/in and collect materials for the duration of the HGE. No relogging necessary]


**[While applying unfortunate fixes - like all loot disappearing from a Settlement, so God forbid you crash in one, or the recent fix for Ground CZ that puts you back at the last docked station, again God forbid you crash in the CZ. And at the same time, one can still supercruise out then back in to reset an instance - so the fixes does not seem to be aimed to prevent farming, but to slow it down]

Hmm.

• Relogging at Guardian sites is indeed unfortunately required. Maybe they intended that people would do the Ram Tah missions which will result in having a lot of mats. Which was too optimistic.
• CG relogging - if no-one relogged and everyone just delivered what they had spare then quite possibly the targets would be way lower. But ofc it only takes one relogged to mean the targets have to be raised - one of the few places that one person relogging spoils the game for everyone, rather than just themselves.
• Ground CZ - that's a bug. With p13 Frontline solutions doesn't even work IIRC - it errors and you end up instantly back at the station when you try and return. That is a case where they should allow you to restart the CZ (and Frontline should be able to take you to other CZ)

Their general approach otherwise is to try and make it more painful in the hope people will stop without them having to spend 100% of the dev time on it. But some people like shortcuts - and complaining about using them

 

[Northpin]

CG relogging - if no-one relogged and everyone just delivered what they had spare then quite possibly the targets would be way lower. But ofc it only takes one relogged to mean the targets have to be raised - one of the few places that one person relogging spoils the game for everyone, rather than just themselves.

yea, but if one relogger is enough to spoil the CG and turn it into a relogging CG, then why keep delivering such CGs? That's the thing that baffles me.

Ground CZ - that's a bug

while there might be a bug involving Frontline Solution, it appears FIxing reloggin in the ground CZ is not a bug - if you consider the response from support, posted here on the forums, that claims Elite is not really designed with relogging in mind

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

This is incorrect and makes no sense.

Yes it is quicker to grind-farm single items. And if you want to drop all other activities to get a fully engineered ship placing your entire attention to acquiring mats would be the fastest way. But it is not the efficient way.

Increasing efficiency means reducing time and effort put directly into an activity. If a player can engineer a ship with very low effort then the efficiency is high.

No method is more efficient than to take materials thrown in front of a player while doing other activities or working on multiple goals simultaneously. Edit: and taking advantage of opportunities when they present themselves.

It's not efficient doing stuff you don't enjoy when you are trying to get entertainment from a game.

 

[Dox Paradox]

It's not efficient doing stuff you don't enjoy when you are trying to get entertainment from a game.

It's also not efficient to play a game in a way it is not meant to, and complain about it when other games surely are more suited for this play-style.
It's a space-sim. Resources should be even scarcer and difficult to obtain.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It's also not efficient to play a game in a way it is not meant to, and complain about it when other games surely are more suited for this play-style.
It's a space-sim. Resources should be even scarcer and difficult to obtain.

It's a game. Ressources should be readily available instead of a pain to collect.

 

[Dox Paradox]

It's a game. Ressources should be readily available instead of a pain to collect.

Not if it's a sim where resources are scarce, instead of something more "arcade"

 

[Frankymole]

No need, for sure, but progression is a primary objective for many players. In skyrim, for example, it's perfectly possible to beat all the story content without leveling up at all, because everything is scaled to your level. But players still love leveling up, getting that sensation of increased power. Take that away, make Skyrim a purely narrative experience, and it would not have experienced nearly the success it did.

Wanting increased power is fine. Wanting increased power for minimal effort just seems lazy.

 

[Frankymole]

Exploring requires engineering to get jump ranges beyond 40ly.

Not much, it doesn't. You can synthesise three different levels of increased jump range using materials as you fly. And FSD engineering is the easiest.

 

[Greasetrap42]

You will be far more efficient to leave them [dropped materials] behind, kill more enemies as quickly as possible, and then use the accumulated saved time to go grind material sites, instead.

Ok, lets suppose for a moment that grind-farming is overall more efficient (better?) method than just playing the game, collecting mats as they appear, and taking opportunities as they arise . ie: You can engineer a ship with less effort than I can.

I really don't put much effort into collecting engineering mats when just playing the game. I mean... really low effort. An even more efficient method must be crazy low effort. The grind-farming method must be pretty easy and low effort. Perhaps verging on trivial? And yes it might be unpleaseant low-quality gameplay, but must be pretty darn quick. Because it would need to be in comparison. So why all the complaints then?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Ok, lets suppose for a moment that grind-farming is overall more efficient (better?) method than just playing the game, collecting mats as they appear, and taking opportunities as they arise . ie: You can engineer a ship with less effort than I can.

I really don't put much effort into collecting engineering mats when just playing the game. I mean... really low effort. An even more efficient method must be crazy low effort. The grind-farming method must be pretty easy and low effort. Perhaps verging on trivial? And yes it might be unpleaseant low-quality gameplay, but must be pretty darn quick. Because it would need to be in comparison. So why all the complaints then?

Maybe you just make it up? Maybe your inventories are full and your ships are engineered already?

 

[Dox Paradox]

So why all the complaints then?

I'll sum it up :
"I want a fully combat engineered ship, but farming mats is a pain."
"Hey, you don't have to farm mats, just play the game and mats comes your way eventually. Plus engineering is optional."
"Yeah but the only game-play I like is combat, so I farm to avoid all other game plays and I want that OP ship nonetheless."
"But the other methods are a lot less painful to obtain a lot of mats"
"This game is boring, I should be able to combat engineer right off and play the game I want"
"This well may not be the game you want then..."
Not saying it is bad to like the combat part. But it is difficult to separate only one game loop from the rest as if the game was completely modular (it is to some extent)

 

[Greasetrap42]

Maybe you just make it up? Maybe your inventories are full and your ships are engineered already?

My raw inventories are maxed-out. And my data and manufactured inventories hover around 20%.

All my current ships are engineered to my satisfaction, because I engineer them when I buy them. Mostly G5 the modules.

When I buy a new ship I will outfit it and engineer it.



Edit:

Maybe you just make it up?

Inara. I am the only Voroshk registered

 

[Dox Paradox]

Maybe you just make it up? Maybe your inventories are full and your ships are engineered already?

I have to ask : how many ships are you engineering for the mats collect to be such a problem?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

My raw inventories are maxed-out. And my data and manufactured inventories hover around 20%.

All my current ships are engineered to my satisfaction, because I engineer them when I buy them. Mostly G5 the modules.

When I buy a new ship I will outfit it and engineer it.



Edit:

Inara. I'm the only Voroshk registered

Then it should be no surprise that it seems easy and achievable. The average person has to unlock and grind the stuff still that are already in your inventories. What is the point comparing your progress with a noob's?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I have to ask : how many ships are you engineering for the mats collect to be such a problem?

One. Just one ship. Playing the game for a month got me a stupid shield booster and some other thing that was completely useless. Just playing the game gets you nowhere in ED.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Then it should be no surprise that it seems easy and achievable. The average person has to unlock and grind the stuff still that are already in your inventories. What is the point comparing your progress with a noob's?

• Engineers need to be unlocked regardless of the method of acquiring mats. Unlocking the first 5 engineers is absolutely trivial for a new player.
• I went through a phase where I purchased and engineered 1 ship every month. I did this for 6 months. Back when I was a noob.
• I have spent > 90% of my time in deep space. So not much time spent in civilized space. So much reduced opportunities for data and manufactured mats.
• I'm not special. Other players achieve the same.

 

[Dox Paradox]

One. Just one ship. Playing the game for a month got me a stupid shield booster and some other thing that was completely useless. Just playing the game gets you nowhere in ED.

I have a little over 4 weeks in-game too with that commander, I'm currently engineering a Viper MK IV.
I've got :

• G5 FSL drive
• G3 thrusters
• G2 shield gen
• G2 lasers
• G3 railguns
• G3 sensors
• G1 generator

It was relatively easy because I selected missions based on mats rewards, explorered systems for signal sources (scooping stuff) and went out exploring in deep space (great way to get mats + cash + ranks).
I'm next to Elite in exploration and have 250 000 000 in cash.
I agree Elite is a slow paced game, that need to be played for extended periods of time to get anywhere. It's part of its DNA. A sim in a gigantic, size 1:1 galaxy.
The story arcs evolves on months for instance. There's nothing to rush about anyway. Take your time, explore, experiment, read, visit. Very little will be spoon fed. It takes effort and it is very satisfying if you get it right (granted, it is not a game that suit everybody)

EDIT : don't follow guides to cut corners, get rich fast, etc.. It just ruin the game. There's nowhere to go. It is all about the journey.