Management Matters

[matty b1]

I don't think creativity is simulation. It can feed it but on its own, that's a stretch.

The point I'm trying to make is that Management games are more popular than creative games.

 

[Curlyriff]

This is a really interesting thread and I thought I'd add my own thoughts.

I've been eagerly watching this game since the first video and bought into the Alpha at the first chance - I've had great fun with it so far and surprised myself (mostly through the game's excellent design tools) at my creative talents (when I'm not comparing myself to YouTube celebrities). However, I'm definitely more of a management style player and in terms of the different views being shared in this thread, I'm more on the side of those who feel the management element won't live up to the sheer scale and audacity of the creative features.

When Frontier say simulation evolved I understand where they are coming from - the AI developed for the guest and staff is a significant step up from previous iterations; I think the reason that this is not so impactful on the management element is that the games before it did so well at tricking players that all this AI was happening in real time, when it was otherwise some very smart script routines. So from a simulation perspective, Frontier are hitting it out of the park but in terms of what we the players see, it's to some extent expected.

The concern about the management is so pronounced now because it was implied at the outset that management was at the heart of the game and would be shown towards the end of the development. We are seeing it now, and I think there are a proportion of people who are underwhelmed by what's been shown. There is certainly no obvious evolution on the management perspective (as there clearly has been for the creative and visual elements) - what did we want? It's hard to say, but something new which would drive this genre forward.

Here's an example (which has been mentioned a few times by various people): Clicking a button to get a staff member trained to level 3 just doesn't feel satisfying - having to build an administration block where the training is held (having to hire a trainer, who can perhaps only train 5 people at one time and the requirement to buy the training equipment etc) and seeing your person toddle of and sit in the training room and be trained, whilst a rookie member of staff has to cover their post, not only makes training far more interesting (how do you incorporate the staff building with the park decor; balancing the cost of paying for the trainer and the equipment vs the future skills of your member of staff; whilst the rookie covers perhaps the quality of service reduces so you have to balance the person going for training and the poor service guests will receive whilst they are away) it's also more realistic - this, to me, feels like moving the management element forward.

Another example could be stalls where you can win prizes at skill-based games (most theme parks have these - This American Life [episode 433] once did an entire episode dedicated to the staff at a small US amusement park who worked solely on these types of game stalls - and where a significant amount of money is made), where you have to balance the cost of the prize for the likelihood of winning, with guests getting annoyed if they think they've been cheated. A more highly trained staff member might be better at getting guests to play the game and part with their cash etc.

The creative-centric fans have had over 6 months to discuss with the development team how they can improve that area even more; unfortunately, due to the fact that the management side is being shown so late in the game, those who are more focussed on it have less time to provide some input.

I'm still going to play and love the game, but I have the sad feeling of a slightly missed opportunity.

These were pretty much my thoughts and the start of what I would have liked to see so thank you for your input and those ideas are spot on to the few I have made. I am not looking to roll out 600 changes or even 20 but a good 3 or 4 changes to the way things work from current would certainly in my eyes and from you have put and others give us a much more involved management game.

Thank you for your time and input [happy]

 

[Curlyriff]

I can't think of one, but I don't play a ton of games so maybe you can. Do you know of a game the has the creativity and creation power of PC and the management aspects of a game like Cities? Management and Creation are both forms of simulation, but I think they need to almost be two different genres. It's nearly impossible to have one game with both in depth management and amazing creativity since it would take way too much time and maybe even make the game too difficult for the "average" player.

Do you know how overwhelming it would be to have to build each individual building in Cities while simultaneously trying to manage everything that you have to manage in order to have a successful city? Keeping up with new builds, repairs, people moving in and out, etc. That sounds terrible, not fun at all...to me at least.

I can see the benefit of maybe a "hardcore" mode of those who are up to the challenge, but then it goes back to my original point. How much work needs to be done and at what cost for what percent of the players? It just might not add up.

See if you take away the graphics (they are not the most important compared to game play) then Prison Architecture actually lets you get very involved in both management and design with true AI influence that affect the steps you take as you build a prison. I would suggest maybe watching a few youtube vids to get an idea of the management and creative side to this. Even Parkitect has a brilliant PBP builder and management is really growing there. If the graphics were at RCT3 level instead of aiming at a slightly different artistic style people I believe would be clambering all over it compared to PC.

It has the extra rides we are wanting, it has the backstage area we are asking for, it does the same as PC with ability to market rides etc. Yeah there are difference and as said the biggest is visual but we was expecting from what has been stated at least something inline with what Parkitect has and mix it up with some old greats such as Theme Hospital (for staff and their requirements) and the sims (training and attributes to their abilities that are specific for the job they are doing).

Just some real depth where it feels shallow on those fronts.

I should say there are great starts to a lot of the management and I probably haven't praised them enough, the ride sequence is brilliant as is and although it could be expanded that could come later as per another thread but for now it is a great little part to manage the ride, the time it takes to complete a sequence against income, outgoings & upkeep of the ride itself.

I would like to see the drop tower rides to be adjustable in height by say allowing them to be 50% shorter in length because I may want to adjust how intense it is from the height or for aesthetic reasons, maybe the fact it's not as tall the single drop is a shorter ride sequence but I could now make it drop 3 times so the factor of fun the guests could balance or increase depending on the guests wants.

And at the same time where people are suggesting about the cost of these things. I would suggest that Frontier believed in enough time to get the creativity and design right with re-design and so far appear to be missing that around 2 million PC gamers like the management side of a game. To add management in of the level we are discussing to gain lets say an additional 1.9 million players compared to what we have now, well that should add to some excellent figures to allow the devs to work on this side and see the return.

I believe the loans in the game are also a great start and it would be interesting to see what happens if you miss a loan payment, can you apply for a break of payment for a few months so you can get a ride in the park, do the loan products change depending on your financial score and credit report? Do they work out what your assets are worth and then take that into account when offering a loan? As said it is great to see them in game and with some flexibility but how deep does it run.

I want that chance where if I mess up with my finances I may have to sell off assets to get the bank off my back if they don't receive payment etc. It is the risk to reward levels.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

tyczj, just keep in mind the main thrust of the discussion though. We were expecting 'simulation evolved' and it doesn't look like we're getting that.

You do realise that's just marketing speak don't you? I mean I never took that to mean this game was going to revolutionise the simulation genre . How could it.

In the end the simulation and management aspects are as good as RCT3 which is all I care about. And there is probably more going on under the hood than in most simulation games.

Next people will be saying the Frontier lied and have done an NMS on us. We are getting a true sequel to RCT3 , do some aspects of the game worry me? Sure, but management from what I have seen isn't one of them.

I

 

[Curlyriff]

You do realise that's just marketing speak don't you? I mean I never took that to mean this game was going to revolutionise the simulation genre . How could it.

In the end the simulation and management aspects are as good as RCT3 which is all I care about. And there is probably more going on under the hood than in most simulation games.

Next people will be saying the Frontier lied and have done an NMS on us. We are getting a true sequel to RCT3 , do some aspects of the game worry me? Sure, but management from what I have seen isn't one of them.

I

Maybe but it is a marketing term that says "Hey look we have significantly improved what we produced previous and this is next gen/next level so check it out"

At the moment that is not what is being shown. And to say that it is as good as RCT3 which is now a decade old isn't a selling point for me. The management in that game wasn't great and so I haven't played it a lot because I found that shallow too. This was marketed as the next step and finally something that had true simulation i.e. real management & creative abilities that are meaningful.

This however does not appear to be the case.

 

[Abletudu]

Maybe but it is a marketing term that says "Hey look we have significantly improved what we produced previous and this is next gen/next level so check it out"

At the moment that is not what is being shown. And to say that it is as good as RCT3 which is now a decade old isn't a selling point for me. The management in that game wasn't great and so I haven't played it a lot because I found that shallow too. This was marketed as the next step and finally something that had true simulation i.e. real management & creative abilities that are meaningful.

This however does not appear to be the case.

In your opinion which is fine, but until I actually play it I reserve my opinion.

 

[Curlyriff]

In your opinion which is fine, but until I actually play it I reserve my opinion.

I am going off what we know, there has been no evolution to the training of staff or how that works other than to make it a longer grind to go from 3 levels to 5 levels. That right there is what has been the biggest issue because it also shows there is no need for things such as training room, paying for trainer, having to deal with staff leaving their post to train and you making sure you have enough staff to cover.

All that ties into this one item which we have seen and so clarifies a good number otherwise.

It has also been shown that all staff are the same type where it doesn't matter if your a ride attendant or a cashier, you are exactly the same. There is no ride attendant, senior ride attendant (where you could have them do more after say training the first 5 levels and they get promotion and have a new 5 levels)

There are no specific learning curves for the staff on their rolls with actual attributes you can increase. These are all clear to see and not opinion. There has been no evolution or improvement to any of this and actually by just increasing from 3 levels to 5 levels to me makes it worse because it just increases a grind that feels shallow through and through.

 

[Funrir Woulfe]

I'm starting to think the only way folks will be happy w/ the management side if it's like SimCity 4, Menus inside of Menus Inside of Menus inside of Menus...

MENUCEPTION ! Where it's all graphs & charts & numbers & micromanagement 'till your eyeballs fall out of your skull...

 

[Curlyriff]

I'm starting to think the only way folks will be happy w/ the management side if it's like SimCity 4, Menus inside of Menus Inside of Menus inside of Menus...

MENUCEPTION ! Where it's all graphs & charts & numbers & micromanagement 'till your eyeballs fall out of your skull...

This is nothing to do with extra menus. The UI is already there, it just needs tweaking to show the info we are discussing. But with management you can still make things work with animations, menus though are generally how management works considering real management is paperwork for the most part.

A few only seem to think management needs to be shallow because they are happy with it....

 

[matty b1]

You do realise that's just marketing speak don't you? I mean I never took that to mean this game was going to revolutionise the simulation genre . How could it.

In the end the simulation and management aspects are as good as RCT3 which is all I care about. And there is probably more going on under the hood than in most simulation games.

Next people will be saying the Frontier lied and have done an NMS on us. We are getting a true sequel to RCT3 , do some aspects of the game worry me? Sure, but management from what I have seen isn't one of them.

I

If you had read the last couple of pages of this thread 'bad boy', you would realise that the discussion has gone far beyond that phrase. When I use it, it is as a catch-all, succinct way of expressing that I was expecting more.

I will continue to use the phrase with quotation marks so you can spot it each time.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I'm starting to think the only way folks will be happy w/ the management side if it's like SimCity 4, Menus inside of Menus Inside of Menus inside of Menus...

MENUCEPTION ! Where it's all graphs & charts & numbers & micromanagement 'till your eyeballs fall out of your skull...

And if that was the case? What then? All we are doing is expressing an opinion, a love for management games and a desire to see more in PC. Somehow this has become an anathema. Why is that? Your post suggests we are wrong or stupid to desire more management, that's a very intolerant way to be.

 

[Nemmie]

I've been dipping into this thread over the last 24 hours and it's almost making my eyes bleed.

If it was just peoples' desires, ideas and opinions, it would be a great thread. It seems though that it's descended into a minority assuming they have all the facts, just because of a couple of screens and a livestream and knocking anyone down who disagrees. I find this particularly frustrating because , I know it sounds smug, but I actually do know more of what's coming, and some of these "factual" statements, (yes, I can use quotations too), are just plain wrong. And it's doubley frustrating when you try to throw a little light on the subject and people just don't listen. So it makes me realize there's just no point trying. I'll just wait a week until we all have the facts and we can reflect on what's happened here.

And I saw the statement saying that management games ARE more popular than creative games. That may be true as I don't have the facts but it does make me ask where Minecraft fits into this.

If you had read the last couple of pages of this thread 'bad boy', you would realise that the discussion has gone far beyond that phrase. When I use it, it is as a catch-all, succinct way of expressing that I was expecting more.

I will continue to use the phrase with quotation marks so you can spot it each time.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



And if that was the case? What then? All we are doing is expressing an opinion, a love for management games and a desire to see more in PC. Somehow this has become an anathema. Why is that? Your post suggests we are wrong or stupid to desire more management, that's a very intolerant way to be.

And matty b, I have to say your passive aggressive attitude towards other members on this thread is very tiresome. If you've got something to say, then say it. And your last paragraph were you're acting like a victim perfectly illustrates some of your responses to others, It sounds like you think people are wrong or stupid to have a different opinion, that's a very intolerant way to be.

 

[Curlyriff]

All the things I have mentioned are there to see though. I have not talked about the loans or marketing or the ride sequence on anything more than I wonder if this is possible.

However the employer and training side was specifically addressed in the live stream showing how they have improved things to 5 levels of hitting the button, waiting some time and hitting the button again. It showed that it is done instantly without requiring any back stage area or time required to complete as such either.

This is my biggest issue because this is the worst training system from the last game (RCT3) re-skinned and made worse by making it longer to grind through. It is not anything that we have discussed before in detail as we was told it was coming and now they have shown this feature and we are discussing you seem to suggest that what we have seen isn't right then?

I can only go of the facts from what have been shown to discuss.



I have no idea of what is more popular but I do feel a lot of people are underestimating how many people enjoy the detail of management. That was why the 2 million player figure was banded about.

And Nemmie, it does go both ways with people on both sides taking stabs at each other because almost having to defend their opinion. We are all replying to what we have seen. We cannot just be told "oh what you have seen is not right because we have seen more" because we can't quantify that.

We was told in another thread that we have all the employees you can see and they showed that park attendants are just one group with no sub groups. This is what has been shown in the live stream. I cannot talk bout as I said the other parts because I don't know how far they go, however the parts that are there and shown are there to be discussed.

If you know more on training and employee I fail to see how this can be under NDA anymore as they have as far as I am concerned shown everything in that regards based on what they stated and went through.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

And the disagreement is not that we do or don't know but people suggesting that it costs too much to add management depth and that it isn't needed is what has got my goat. Why if you don't like that part feel the need to add to a conversation you are not interested in.

Why suggest that we are not allowed to discuss what we have seen.

It happened all the way through Alpha 1 to 3 with creativity when we didn't see anything, made assumptions and talked them through together regardless and no one got stressed and said "I know the answer so just stop talking about it till later"

The whole point of the live stream was to talk about it.

 

[tyczj]

I think something we can all agree on is that using the phrase "simulation evolved" may have been a bad idea as it raised the expectations to IMO unrealistic levels for people.

 

[Abletudu]

Yes and no, it all depends on how you look at it.

 

[Angelis1]

I think something we can all agree on is that using the phrase "simulation evolved" may have been a bad idea as it raised the expectations to IMO unrealistic levels for people.

If it was "management evolved" then yes, since the management aspect of the game will be (I mean, I guess, we didn't saw everything) the same (or close) to what we saw in RCT3. I would agree with you.
And I repeat, we have not seen all the features for now, so we can not even be sure ...

For now the "managers" have won a system of rides sequences, and lost (temporarily perhaps, we do not know) the security guards.

But anyway ... since it's "simulation evolved" ... then, it's true.

The guests animations and reactions have evolved
The path tool have evolved
The graphics have evolved
First time that we have a fast pass system
First time that we have a voxel terrain tool
The list is long ...

Many things that help us to make a simulation of a theme park have evolved since the last game of the genre (RCT3).

My opinion.

 

[tyczj]

If it was "management evolved" then yes, since the management aspect of the game will be (I mean, I guess, we didn't saw everything) the same (or close) to what we saw in RCT3. I would agree with you.
And I repeat, we have not seen all the features for now, so we can not even be sure ...

For now the "managers" have won a system of rides sequences, and lost (temporarily perhaps, we do not know) the security guards.

But anyway ... since it's "simulation evolved" ... then, it's true.

The guests animations and reactions have evolved
The path tool have evolved
The graphics have evolved
First time that we have a fast pass system
First time that we have a voxel terrain tool
The list is long ...

Many things that help us to make a simulation of a theme park have evolved since the last game of the genre (RCT3).

My opinion.

Just watching the last dev diary again they keep referencing simulation evolved with the guests AI so it seems that when that phrase is referenced that is what they are referring to, but we/customers took it well beyond that and expected everything to be evolved

 

[widlanquebec]

Yeah, the simulation of the theme park has evolved for sure... There's a lot new additions to Planet Coaster from previous RCT. The "guest brain" and awareness of all the surroundings are now next level, the graphics (sure), the buildings tools, etc.

About the management, I already talk about what I would like to see coming to the game and I'll wait for next livestream, informations and beta to really make my opinion. I just hope that there's still new ideas to come about park management.

 

[stuk71]

Not forgetting that the ride simulations have also evolved a great deal too [happy]

 

[Nemmie]

I think something we can all agree on is that using the phrase "simulation evolved" may have been a bad idea as it raised the expectations to IMO unrealistic levels for people.

That's the thing though. It's "simulation evolved" and not "management evolved" I think that's the root of this.

The simulation has certainly evolved because of the guest brain, amongst other factors. The management side of this game is different to other games and is PART of the simulation. If anything, I would say it's more advanced than other games because of the nature of it. So many people weren't happy with the management that was shown on Monday. But the fact is with this game that the management isn't just about spread sheets and menu screens. It's a lot more complex and subtle than that. And it isn't all visual in the sense that it wouldn't have necessarily come across in a 1 hour stream. This game goes deeper because it's asking you to approach running a park realistically. If you were going to run a park or build a park from scratch in real life, you would have to see it as a whole. You wouldn't always be caught up in the more mundane details as micro managing absolutely everything. even though there is some of that in this game. What you do have to do is really think and plan tactically as every decision, including design decisions have a knock on affect that has to be considered. It's more realistic in that you have to really consider your market. The guest brain is a very powerful part of management here. And comparing Planet Coaster to other Tycoon type games is fair enough, but other tycoon games don't ask you to specifically gear all your decisions towards making people have a brilliant day in a theme park. Planet Coaster does.

Oh and Curlyriff, The cost people are referring to can also be about computer resourses. All of our PCs have a finite amount of computer power. The more of these resourses that go on graphics and coaster physics and guest behaviour, for example, the less is left for the rest. I'm sure the management side will still be lots of fun though with loads to keep us occupied. [up]

 

[Angelis1]

And ... They will perhaps add new staff in future updates (such as the reappearance of the security guard, when it will be "fun" to play for exemple)

And ... They will prehaps add new buildings in future updates too, we don't know.

And ... They will prehaps make a "Resort" system one day, to manage hotels around the park, to manage a system of (free or paid) bus shuttles for guests between hotels and the park, with a system of "village night" with a lot of new buildings, which new member staff, which mean new management layer.

And ... They will prehaps make an "Water Park" expansion, and a "Zoo Park" expansion, to manage several parks at the time.

And ... They will prehaps add new cast member to manage, in addition to Mascots and Princess/Cowgirl, like ... I don't know ... A barbershop singers group like the "Dapper Dans" (*cough* 100% random exemple *cough*)