Message to Frontier - ITS SO DAMN OBVIOUS!!
- Thread starter dsteve26
- Start date
OP. MMOs are inherently grindy. I played WoW exclusively for 4 years and it was very repetitive game-play. I must have done the same BGs, raids & dungeons 1000s times.
I'm currently playing Elder Scrolls Online on free trial. Guess what, it's just like Elite and WoW, but in the Elder Scrolls world.
The only saving grace for me, it's very pretty; I just want to explore the world. And "end-game" PvP looks a blast.
If you want engaging game-play, go play a single player game like Witcher 3 or Kingdom Come: Deliverance.
I'm currently playing Elder Scrolls Online on free trial. Guess what, it's just like Elite and WoW, but in the Elder Scrolls world.
- Fetch quests
- Delivery quests
- Kill x monsters
- Easy braindead mobs
- Grind rank, grind level, grind crafting, grind skills, grind gold
The only saving grace for me, it's very pretty; I just want to explore the world. And "end-game" PvP looks a blast.
If you want engaging game-play, go play a single player game like Witcher 3 or Kingdom Come: Deliverance.
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Oh ye - and p.s. I personally dont care whether a planet looks 'redder/greener/more beige than it did before'. How many hours did you spend creating those 'new graphics' when you coulda been working on ACTUAL GODAMN GAMEPLAY? GET REAL.
Ok i feel better now
Well they spent time sprucing up the graphics because EnDleSS HouRS Were Spent BY PlaYeRS Complaining AbOUT the BEiGE!
Ok that's enough random caps for not, it's even hurting my eyes!
The point is, they spent a lot of time working on the graphics because that's what people were complaining about. The fact that you personally don't care is irrelevant, you are one person, you must become legion and persist, so get working and flood the forums with all caps posts so next time there is an update it will be all about gameplay.
Never understood this. It's for emphasis, but over-use actually makes it more difficult to read and so is self-defeating. And, unlike real-world discussions where passions can rise and lead to unintended raised voices, on a keyboard it's 100% deliberate. One cannot accidentally hold down the shift key or engage Caps Lock, at least not without noticing before one hits Submit. So it's a deliberate choice that undermines the argument. Makes absolutely no sense. Font size changes and colour edits at least show a bit of creativity.
I knew a girl at school like that.
I knew a boy at... ah, never mind.
[video=youtube;3_CKBjws6TY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_CKBjws6TY[/video]
Anyone remember the craze for scrolling shooters in the late 80s through mid 90s? R-Type, Project-X, Raiden, that sort of thing? Where you spent ages building the power-ups for the later levels only to meet a boss who would kill you, send you back to the start with your customised weapons reduced or even taken away. What kind of sadistic logic was that? If you couldn't defeat it with all the power-ups you sure as hell weren't going to do it with the spud gun. You could bank up a dozen extra lives and they would be absolutely useless once the weapon attrition started. First death on a higher level was basically Game Over.
That was grinding. And there was zero reward at the end, other than the satisfaction of having "beaten" the game. Insane.
But what's the alternative? What would be the nature of this "content that doesn't require [...] grind?" Because unless it's something that every single player enjoys doing, your last sentence will always apply to somebody.
That's the problem. The perception of grind is subjective. Often shared among a given group of players, but still subjective.
There's no money grind in ED.
There's umpteen different ways to earn money. It's not FDs fault if you only do 1 of them 1000 times.
Material grind is real, but it's been getting better since it was released.
Rank grind is only grind if you rush it, and is reduced thanks to choosing your missions rewards.
PowerPlay is still grind. Lol
There's umpteen different ways to earn money. It's not FDs fault if you only do 1 of them 1000 times.
Material grind is real, but it's been getting better since it was released.
Rank grind is only grind if you rush it, and is reduced thanks to choosing your missions rewards.
PowerPlay is still grind. Lol
There are many 'so obvious things' that were disregarded.
Like putting each material trader at each engineer base. Instead of giving a QoL feature and taking a bit away by distributing them all over the bubble to add another step in between.
But sooner or later, they listen to feedback. Spes ultima erit.
Like putting each material trader at each engineer base. Instead of giving a QoL feature and taking a bit away by distributing them all over the bubble to add another step in between.
But sooner or later, they listen to feedback. Spes ultima erit.
So - you make the massive grind in your game... because you think its the way to keep people playin for longer/coming back to play your game.
Lets look at the facts:
You have around 12,000 active players online at a time (might be wrong here but dont think its far off being next to nothing.. compared to some 'highly successful games' out there.. talking 70k active players; up to 500k active players.. you all know of the games im talkin about).
You have Steam review of 'MIXED' (says it all)
Your forums are FULL of people disgruntled with the current state of the game.
ITS SO DAMN OBVIOUS. REDUCE THE GRIND. MORE PLAYERS WILL PLAY YOUR GAME. YOU WILL MAKE MORE MONEY. YOU CAN USE TO THE MONEY DEVELOP THE GAME FROM:
"ITS GOT SO MUCH POTENTIAL BUT BASICALLY NOT VERY GOOD"
TO:
"OMG THIS GAME NOW BLOWS MY MIND BECAUSE I DONT HAVE TO SPEND 3 HOURS DOING THE SAME TASK OVER AND OVER TO EARN 2 MILLION CREDITS AND I CAN DO MORE VARIETY AND NOT GET SO BORED THAT MY EYELIDS GET STUCK OPEN FROM STARING AT THE SAME STUPID MISSION SCREEN FOR 32 HOURS A WEEK"
Sorry... but starting to lose my patience with these braindead and unempathetic devs.
p.s. One thing that I absolutely love about this game.. is the way the ship handles and flies. The way the engines and weapons sound and look. The combat in rez sites is amazing (for example). CAPITALIZE ON THIS. MAKE IT EXCITING/ENJOYABLE/A BUZZ TO PLAY!! (All the things that Elite currently isn't).
p.p.s. SORRY but I dont enjoy flying close to the ground on a planet for more than 30 minutes, or taking a screenshot of a distant planet (dont mind doin it once.. but that isnt gameplay, or going on a 20,000LY trip with some other individuals where I just hit the 'j' key 2,000 times and watch the screen load over and over and over. THATS NOT FUN! its FLUFF!), I DONT WANT FLUFF I WANT A GAME!
Oh ye - and p.s. I personally dont care whether a planet looks 'redder/greener/more beige than it did before'. How many hours did you spend creating those 'new graphics' when you coulda been working on ACTUAL GODAMN GAMEPLAY? GET REAL.
Ok i feel better now
Elite is not perfect no, not by any stretch, but it is also a niche game, so by default a lot won't find it fun.
All official forums are full of disgruntled posts, but generally it is a fraction of the playerbase that posts those, and it is a fraction of the playerbase that even uses official forums because they often turn toxic.
Now that said, you want the 'grind' removed? well first of all you can just do what you want to do, right off the bat, nothing is holding you back. If you want to grind it is because you've aimed towards something that requires it, if you simply play the game and get the ships you get rather then saying "I need x" then there is no grind.
Now naturally people see the big ships and whatnot and go "cool I want that" which is fine, but shouldn't the biggest things in the game be difficult to get? any mmoish game out there, heck many normal games out there require repeated actions to get 'the best', so while grinding is not fun, how would you make people feel like they've gotten something special, rather then just handed to them and everyone in the game has this?
From my perspective, more people should just play the game and not worry about what they are flying, then there is no grind and you can just have fun, that is what I have done, sure I have the big ships now, but when elite launch the grind was......very real, payouts were abysmal compared to now, so compared to that the grind has been reduced a lot, how much more should it be reduced?
I get that people have limited play time, I have such myself of late, and can't play as much as I want to meaning getting certain things I want is going to take a long time, is that frustrating? a bit sure, but I wouldn't want the game to be changed because of my time table, rather I want them to fix the conceptual problems the game has, which in turn I think would fix many of the frustrating elements.
OH LOOK I CAN DO CAPS TO0!
OI OP NO!
'Grind' is a necessary evil in a game like this, get rid of it and everyone is in a maxed out Cutter with infinate rebuys, does that really sound like an improvment?
As you point out the reviews are mixed that means that some (many) people also like the game and do get it.
Also you never need to actually grind, it took me a couple of years before being in a tricked out 'Conda and I enjoyed the journey.
Where I think FDEV could do better is how they 'camoflage' the grind and other necessary contivances such as USSs, but that's all it can be is camoflage 'cos its a game. This also appears to be the direction they are going with much of Beyond.
However at this rate I wouldn't blame FDEV if they abandoned ED to concentrate on other genres which don't have players with such unrealistic expectations. I'd be very sad though.
So no it isn't obvious, if you actually think about it.
OI OP NO!
'Grind' is a necessary evil in a game like this, get rid of it and everyone is in a maxed out Cutter with infinate rebuys, does that really sound like an improvment?
As you point out the reviews are mixed that means that some (many) people also like the game and do get it.
Also you never need to actually grind, it took me a couple of years before being in a tricked out 'Conda and I enjoyed the journey.
Where I think FDEV could do better is how they 'camoflage' the grind and other necessary contivances such as USSs, but that's all it can be is camoflage 'cos its a game. This also appears to be the direction they are going with much of Beyond.
However at this rate I wouldn't blame FDEV if they abandoned ED to concentrate on other genres which don't have players with such unrealistic expectations. I'd be very sad though.
So no it isn't obvious, if you actually think about it.
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That really GRINDS my goat, I imagine some bright spark at Fdev saying, 'I know, we'll split the traders into three types then hide them thru the bubble (with more rules as to who might be where) so people have yet another reason to visit external websites - some excellent gameplay there... what, VR users? screw 'em.' I imagine he got a raise for that out of the box thinking.
Sorry... but starting to lose my patience with these braindead and unempathetic devs.
Oh ye - and p.s. I personally dont care whether a planet looks 'redder/greener/more beige than it did before'. How many hours did you spend creating those 'new graphics' when you coulda been working on ACTUAL GODAMN GAMEPLAY? GET REAL.
Ok i feel better now
Right, another insult towards the developers, some decency would be in place here imho.
And did the OP just criticise the work done on the improved planet textures? Something more then half the community asked for?
You just lost all credibility in my opinion.
This is not 'obvious' at all. The pinned blueprints make it possible for you to do your material trade and your engineering in one place, without having to return to the engineer. Yes, engineering takes effort. If it'd been up to me, I would have made it take more effort. As it is, max upgrades are incredibly easy to achieve, even easier with the new system. At least with the old one, there was a chance for failure. If you think engineering in Elite is a challenge, try enchanting in Black Desert Online. TET Dandi FTW.
In no means I am complaining the pace of progress (which many here mistake for the grindTM). What is clear, though, is the ways of gathering certain resources like materials, credits, etc. are insnaely limited to a single task. For example, core dynamic composites exclusively drop(ped) in HGEs only (now the recnt patch allowed them to be dropped from Elite ranked big ships as well but it's still very unlikely, let alone spawning those).
Thus, we are forced to do tasks we are most likely not interested in (like scanning for USSs/HGEs) and feel bored/annoyed when doing so because our preferred type of play (combat/exploring/trading, etc.) does not offer any of the needed resources.
In my example, I do alot of combat and some passenger missions. For an increased range FSD for my Dolphin I need to scan high wakes ... which is 1. not really included in passenger missions and 2. is boring as hell. Why can't they drop from tourist beacons or from scanning whole systems that are highly populated?
Furthermore, doing PvP gives absolutely nothing while requiring the most. I need to do everything for these damn engineers just so I get access to blueprints for a purpose that is completely different than the requirenments for the engineers.
I want to shoot ships and prefareably fast. I need to visit atleast 50 markets, travel 5k LY and collect some thargonion potatoes and not forgetting ... Marco this damn ...
Anyhow. The grind is defined as the repetetive origin of simple tasks instead of actual encouraging gameplay where challenging scenarios reward high value goods of any kind. Other MMO(RPG) games have raids and dungeons with different difficulties. Each dungeon has some raw materials such as iron here and there, treasures and other kind of loot boxes where you can find equipment, materials, bluepritns for some cooking or craftign recipe or other kind of stuff and most importnalty boss lott of high quality depending of the difficulty.
In Elite this is seperated in all kinds of "dungeons" aka tasks. One dungeon gives alot of raw materials, the next one a full load of recipes you don't even need, another one is full of bosses that only reward equipment, etc.
Conclusion: Rewarding resources in more than one way of (game)play would solve alot of the grinding issues as we are no longer forced to do tasks we don't want to do and are completely different from our own style of play.
Thus, we are forced to do tasks we are most likely not interested in (like scanning for USSs/HGEs) and feel bored/annoyed when doing so because our preferred type of play (combat/exploring/trading, etc.) does not offer any of the needed resources.
In my example, I do alot of combat and some passenger missions. For an increased range FSD for my Dolphin I need to scan high wakes ... which is 1. not really included in passenger missions and 2. is boring as hell. Why can't they drop from tourist beacons or from scanning whole systems that are highly populated?
Furthermore, doing PvP gives absolutely nothing while requiring the most. I need to do everything for these damn engineers just so I get access to blueprints for a purpose that is completely different than the requirenments for the engineers.
I want to shoot ships and prefareably fast. I need to visit atleast 50 markets, travel 5k LY and collect some thargonion potatoes and not forgetting ... Marco this damn ...
Anyhow. The grind is defined as the repetetive origin of simple tasks instead of actual encouraging gameplay where challenging scenarios reward high value goods of any kind. Other MMO(RPG) games have raids and dungeons with different difficulties. Each dungeon has some raw materials such as iron here and there, treasures and other kind of loot boxes where you can find equipment, materials, bluepritns for some cooking or craftign recipe or other kind of stuff and most importnalty boss lott of high quality depending of the difficulty.
In Elite this is seperated in all kinds of "dungeons" aka tasks. One dungeon gives alot of raw materials, the next one a full load of recipes you don't even need, another one is full of bosses that only reward equipment, etc.
Conclusion: Rewarding resources in more than one way of (game)play would solve alot of the grinding issues as we are no longer forced to do tasks we don't want to do and are completely different from our own style of play.
Nobody is forcing You !!! and especially, not me, stop include me in your rant
edith said: switched a r with a t
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The grind is why so few people play Elite Dangerous and why the forums are full of bile, frustration and anger.
Those of us that stick around are probably far too forgiving of its many many flaws and grindy nature but effectively it's little more than a hollow framework that's ready for a proper game with interesting gameplay in the future.
Don't feel bad for leaving and dipping back into it now and again. Sandbox games don't have that much appeal and once you've engineered your ships and done every different "career" the game has to offer you'll probably resort to taking a break.
Those of us that stick around are probably far too forgiving of its many many flaws and grindy nature but effectively it's little more than a hollow framework that's ready for a proper game with interesting gameplay in the future.
Don't feel bad for leaving and dipping back into it now and again. Sandbox games don't have that much appeal and once you've engineered your ships and done every different "career" the game has to offer you'll probably resort to taking a break.
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You can make these same arguments against the gameplay of pretty much ANY video game ever made.
Super Mario?
How is that not a grind?
My opinion of rants like this is that the OP has simply reached the point where they are no longer willing to put in the time required to advance through any involved video game. They consider the effort to be somehow beneath them, and not worthy of their attention.
My advice?
Simple really...
Time to find another hobby. One they actually enjoy doing.
Super Mario?
How is that not a grind?
My opinion of rants like this is that the OP has simply reached the point where they are no longer willing to put in the time required to advance through any involved video game. They consider the effort to be somehow beneath them, and not worthy of their attention.
My advice?
Simple really...
Time to find another hobby. One they actually enjoy doing.
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Never in the history of space games has so much been owed by so many to so few.
So what's the alternative?
Its very easy to say get rid of the grind and repalace with more meaningful content as if FDEV will slap their foreheads and go 'geez we hadn't thought of that.'
And remember it has to be in the realm of feasability, look at SC trying to do it all and how that's going for them.
I'll start, would a system where you could 'set your scanner' to look for things be it mesiorites (or however you spell that) on planets or certain types of USS when in super cruise be good? Could the game be aware of what you are looking for and 'adjust' the old RNG accordingly?
Remember there is only so much they can do, there will always be something like USSs under the surface due to the type of game.
Its very easy to say get rid of the grind and repalace with more meaningful content as if FDEV will slap their foreheads and go 'geez we hadn't thought of that.'
And remember it has to be in the realm of feasability, look at SC trying to do it all and how that's going for them.
I'll start, would a system where you could 'set your scanner' to look for things be it mesiorites (or however you spell that) on planets or certain types of USS when in super cruise be good? Could the game be aware of what you are looking for and 'adjust' the old RNG accordingly?
Remember there is only so much they can do, there will always be something like USSs under the surface due to the type of game.
For the most part I dont think the grind is too bad but I started in January 2016 and it was MUCH harder to earn cash back then (missions were rank locked and didn't pay out near as much, exploration payouts were vastly smaller etc.)
The only grind now that I do dislike is the elite combat rank - ive just started to finish it off and made Deadly the other day. Working out how long it took to get 6% (3 hours) im waging it will take me 50 hours in-game of doing nothing but blowing up ships.
Dont get me wrong it should take a while to get but having to put in over 2 full days worth of game playtime doing nothing but destroying ships isnt it (and with my Corvette its not like its actually taking any skill to get the rank, just time.
Edit: to put it into prospective for general grinding my PS4 account probably only has 2 days played time but has about 130m credits and that was gained doing the faction rankings at 10k credit per turn in (plus delivery bonuses which helped massively to gain cash)
The only grind now that I do dislike is the elite combat rank - ive just started to finish it off and made Deadly the other day. Working out how long it took to get 6% (3 hours) im waging it will take me 50 hours in-game of doing nothing but blowing up ships.
Dont get me wrong it should take a while to get but having to put in over 2 full days worth of game playtime doing nothing but destroying ships isnt it (and with my Corvette its not like its actually taking any skill to get the rank, just time.
Edit: to put it into prospective for general grinding my PS4 account probably only has 2 days played time but has about 130m credits and that was gained doing the faction rankings at 10k credit per turn in (plus delivery bonuses which helped massively to gain cash)
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How many different things would they have to add to avoid repetitiveness? Sooner or later, no matter how much they add, things can become repetitive. I think ED has quite a wide range of tasks you can do to avoid repetitiveness. Certainly more than many games. Many games you are limited to doing quite a small amount of actions. It may be the sheer amount of hours you can sink into ED is actually one of the reasons people find it repeititive. After hundreds of hours you usually have done most of the things the game has to offer. So FD introduce a few new things to do, and ok, that gives you what? Another dozen hours of play before things become repeititve again.
Basically it boils down to whether you enjoy those things or not.