Message to Frontier - ITS SO DAMN OBVIOUS!!

ITS SO DAMN OBVIOUS. REDUCE THE GRIND. MORE PLAYERS WILL PLAY YOUR GAME.
I guess you've never played any MMOs then? The effort to increase your character's level tends to increase exponentially, so that MMOs quickly become a 'grind'. (Doesn't seem to stop most people playing them though.)

By your logic MMOs are shooting themselves in the foot. But the reality is that once players reach max level & with the best equipment (etc), so that there's nothing else to get, they tend to become bored & leave the game. So to keep people playing MMOs have to be grindy.

And so sadly the same has to be true for Elite Dangerous: If everyone had tons of credits (allowing them to buy the best ships), maximum Reputation & Rank, tons of rare materials, maximum Engineered stuff, etc, they'd likely get bored because there was nothing new to strive for. (Even PvPers would likely get bored eventually, as everyone would be using the exact same 'best' ship, as it would be within easy reach of everyone.)


The difficulty is finding a balance between 'too grindy' & 'not grindy enough'. MMOs tend to solve that by having an exponentially increasing difficulty (so that those who play a little & those who play a lot see the difficulty increase at the same rate, roughly speaking). With Elite it's not so easy to balance, as there is no 'character level' - instead credits plus exponentially expensive ship (e.g. Anaconda at the top end) have somewhat replaced that.
 
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Lets look at the facts:

You have around 12,000 active players online at a time (might be wrong here but dont think its far off being next to nothing.. compared to some 'highly successful games' out there.. talking 70k active players; up to 500k active players.. you all know of the games im talkin about).

OP, your selected facts don't tell the whole picture which turns out to be a vastly different reality in the space games genre. Total number of different accounts logged in on average daily, shows ED ahead of most other games in this particular space niche genre:

(from steamspy, https://steamspy.com/app/359320 )
Last two weeks: active players/day average: 3-23-18

"Elite Dangerous", 107k
"Eve: Online", 48k
"Star Trek: Online", 32k
"No Man's Sky", 28k
"Star Conflict: Journey", 21k
"Fractured Space", 19k
"Rebel Galaxy", 16k
"Starpoint Gemini: Warlords", 8k
"Hellion", 6k
"Endless Sky", 5k
"Starmade", 3k
"Everspace", 2k
"X3: Reunion", 2k
"X: Rebirth VR", 1.7k
"Starpoint Gemini 2", 1.5k
"Galaxy on Fire 2:, 1.5k
"Universe Sandbox", 1.5k
"House of the Dying Sun", 1k


Even at peak count of last 30 days, on steamcharts, ED still leads the current major space online mmo games i.e. EVE & StarTrekOnline. Where it hit a new peak of 14.4k players, the hightest since Dec. 2015, so in general this helps support
the trend that the ED playerbase is not "dying out" and continues to be consistent and doing relatively well.
( http://steamcharts.com/app/359320 )

Last 30 days, peak players: 3-25-18

"Elite Dangerous", 14.4k
"Space Wars: Interstellar Empires",14k (early access)
"Eve: Online", 4.2k
"Star Trek: Online", 2k
"No Man's Sky", 1.2k
"Star Conflict: Journey", 0.8k
"Rebel Galaxy", 0.8k
"Starpoint Gemini: Warlords", 0.8k
"Hellion", 0.4k
"Universe Sandbox", 0.4k
"X: Rebirth VR", 0.3k
"Fractured Space", 0.3k
"Endless Sky", 0.2k
"Everspace", 0.2k
"Starmade", 0.1k
"Starpoint Gemini 2", 0.1k
"X3: Reunion", 0.04k
"Galaxy on Fire 2:, 0.02k
"House of the Dying Sun", 0.01k



You mean like that mass exodus that was meant to happen when NMS came out. lel...
There was a mass exodus - except they all came here from NMS.
NMS sold so many copies of Elite on PS4.

Right. Beyond's new planetary textures now look , imo, more competent in comparison to SC and NMS's, with the new land texturing and lighting. On procedural moons to boot of how many billions. SC's cryengine rendering becomes more obsolete and irrelevant as ED's graphics continue to improve where the quality of ED screenshots and videos are the best they've ever been. More incentive for NMS refugees to return to ED and more probably did when Beyond dropped.

DLMgvYm.jpg
 
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Let EXPLORATION be the grind.
Let Credits not be.

With these above simple solutions the following will happen:
Everyone can play.
Everyone can play almost instantly.
The setup time before you can play ( grind, cr grind, engineer process, outfitting and learning to fly the stuff ) will be minimal and thus very well received.

THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO BEING ABLE TO GET CREDITS AND SHIP UPGRADES FAST.
( And "exploiting" very dangerous missions is FUN. As in Sothis. Robigo. Ah the memories.)

Because when people get bored with having "it all", they can go Explore for 5000 hours.
 
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Also using steam to determine player count is useless as there is a fair few PC gamers that dont use it as they bought it from frontiers store - and then your not factoring the PS4/Xbox players either

Edit: i saw the OP mentioned steam reviews - they are pointless. Two of the biggest selling games on Steam - GTA 5 and PUBG - also have mixed reviews.

Steam reviews tend to he plagued by unhappy customers as people who are content with the game dont tend to leave reviews
 
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THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO BEING ABLE TO GET CREDITS AND SHIP UPGRADES FAST.

You mean you personally don't see any downsides. It doesn't mean that downsides don't exist.

Steam reviews tend to he plagued by unhappy customers as people who are content with the game dont tend to leave reviews

Well known phenonmenom in customer services. All anyone needs to do to understand the truth of this is think about the amount of times they have complained about something when deserved compared to how often they complimented someone or a company for doing something right. Or take for example any bank or shop which has those buttons or surveys about how people feel about the service they got.

Now, it is fair to wonder then why so many people buy ED who don't enjoy it, or at least write negative reviews, when there are games that get mostly or overwhelmingly postive reviews. I think it can at least be partially explained by a couple of factors. One is that there are so few games in this genre that overlap with what some people want, but doesn't exactly, so they get upset that the devs are not making the game they want... there are few alternatives. The other might be to do with marketing. When people see the launch trainer it gives a very bad insight into what the game is actually about.
 
Let EXPLORATION be the grind.
Let Credits not be.

With these above simple solutions the following will happen:
Everyone can play.
Everyone can play almost instantly.
The setup time before you can play ( grind, cr grind, engineer process, outfitting and learning to fly the stuff ) will be minimal and thus very well received.

THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO BEING ABLE TO GET CREDITS AND SHIP UPGRADES FAST.
( And "exploiting" very dangerous missions is FUN. As in Sothis. Robigo. Ah the memories.)

Because when people get bored with having "it all", they can go Explore for 5000 hours.


It takes a different breed of cat to explore for 5000 hours, and probably not the same breed that wants to run dangerous missions or find get rich quick schemes.
 
You can make these same arguments against the gameplay of pretty much ANY video game ever made.

Super Mario?

How is that not a grind?

Super Mario is not a grind, it requires constant player actions and decisions. It's a platform action game. Repetition in itself does not equal grind if it is also accompanied by variety and active inputs.

Elite as a simulation lite game has lots of low action or passive moments. The reason why so many feel it is so grindy though is because Frontier tunes the game to require a lot of repetition in order to accomplish certain tasks. Engineering a ship requires hundreds of materials thanks to the new grade grind, most of which can only be obtained by performing very specific actions, many of which are outside of how most people play the game normally. Frontier didn't need to add this new grade grind, they chose to. Material Traders are tuned to have extremely punishing trade ratios in most directions, again Frontier didn't need to design it like that, they chose to. The new Tech Brokers require players to perform one event dozens of times over in order to unlock things, and once again Frontier designed it purposefully this way. Power Play, same thing. Rank progression, same thing. Scanning planets requires you to sit for half a minute with nothing to do while the scan wheel spins. Hunting USS requires you to passively fly around in supercruise for extended periods of time just waiting for the RNG to work in your favor. Synthesis recipes all now have timers requiring the player to sit and wait while a progress bar increases.

Frontier constantly develops mechanics to be very time consuming. They sometimes step it back later on, but they also sometimes increase it afterwards too, so it is obviously a design priority to them. The update history lays this out as a fact, for better or worse. Frontier likes Elite being grindy, they want it to be grindy. We don't know why, they might think it supports player retention, or someone in charge at Frontier just really loves grind mechanics, but we do know that they do.

The OP is suggesting that the game would be better served and more successful if the grind was toned down and reduced. I honestly agree with that, there are many areas of the game which could very easily be retuned to reduce wasted time. There is a reason why the majority of 3.0 beta testers did not like the new grade grind with the engineering revamp, it is a grind added for grinds sake and really didn't add much value to the game. It is only designed to make the engineering process slower and more time consuming, like many other aspects of the game.

I'd much rather the wasted time be reduced so that players could spend more time actively playing rather than grinding or doing passive activities.
 
p.s. One thing that I absolutely love about this game.. is the way the ship handles and flies. The way the engines and weapons sound and look. The combat in rez sites is amazing (for example). CAPITALIZE ON THIS. MAKE IT EXCITING/ENJOYABLE/A BUZZ TO PLAY!! (All the things that Elite currently isn't).
p.p.s. SORRY but I dont enjoy flying close to the ground on a planet for more than 30 minutes, or taking a screenshot of a distant planet (dont mind doin it once.. but that isnt gameplay, or going on a 20,000LY trip with some other individuals where I just hit the 'j' key 2,000 times and watch the screen load over and over and over. THATS NOT FUN! its FLUFF!), I DONT WANT FLUFF I WANT A GAME!
The problem isn't just that players need to 'grind' i.e. play a huge number of hours to achieve anything in the game. The problem is mainly that there is an almost complete lack of compelling, varied and interesting gameplay loops. You are exactly right in identifying that the game mechanics - e.g. flight, combat, stealth, docking, scooping etc. - are brilliantly designed and very satisfying for players to do, so FDev needs to capitalise on these strengths. The reason their current gameplay design doesn't capitalise on them is because they haven't really implemented gameplay beyond the most basic fetch quests and kill quests, and the most completely basic exploration gameplay of 'go to place, come back, click button to get money'.

If there was good gameplay design - e.g. combat missions that actually took place in interesting and varied locations like derelict space stations or something, instead of just a blank bit of space/planetary ring - then the game would still be a bit grindy, but you wouldn't see nearly as many complaints as you do. Why? Because whilst it might take doing a lot of missions/whatever for people to achieve things (as it does now), those missions would actually be far more enjoyable individually, as well as more interesting over the long term due to greater variation in their design.

So Frontier can't fix the game merely by reducing the grind. They need to design and implement interesting, varied and fun gameplay loops to make the actual moment-to-moment experience of playing the game more engaging and more fun.
 
The only thing I can disagree with is the presentation the OP offered. Still, kudos to him for expressing that frustration, in a manner most of us are feeling. I can think of at least a dozen times I've started to type something to FD, that was way more punishing and hostile, only to hit cancel before posting it. I know mine would have been removed and rightfully so.

I'd much rather be out there shooting the OP, than spending months re-engineering everything I've already spent months engineering in the first place. (no offense dsteve ;)) Maybe some of you feel the overall grind was reduced. I think all that was actually done was rob Peter to pay Paul. We need less mats/data to engineer now, but it takes a helluva lot more time to find everything necessary, to engineer up to G5. I never had to do thousands of rolls on 1 thing to get THE roll, because 30 rolls would get me something that was adequate. If you knew how to play odds or count cards, getting a God Roll against the engineering RNG, wasn't as difficult as everyone made it out to be. You're welcome to have your opinion. Your's won't likely change mine.

Rooks o7
 
The only thing I can disagree with is the presentation the OP offered. Still, kudos to him for expressing that frustration, in a manner most of us are feeling. I can think of at least a dozen times I've started to type something to FD, that was way more punishing and hostile, only to hit cancel before posting it. I know mine would have been removed and rightfully so.

I'd much rather be out there shooting the OP, than spending months re-engineering everything I've already spent months engineering in the first place. (no offense dsteve ;)) Maybe some of you feel the overall grind was reduced. I think all that was actually done was rob Peter to pay Paul. We need less mats/data to engineer now, but it takes a helluva lot more time to find everything necessary, to engineer up to G5. I never had to do thousands of rolls on 1 thing to get THE roll, because 30 rolls would get me something that was adequate. If you knew how to play odds or count cards, getting a God Roll against the engineering RNG, wasn't as difficult as everyone made it out to be. You're welcome to have your opinion. Your's won't likely change mine.

Rooks o7

You say its harder to get all the mats now yet you say you would get enough mats for 30 (presumably G5) rolls to get something that was just adequate? (and they are the same mats we need now)

Where as at max reputation grade with an engineer g1-3 takes usually 1 maybe 2 rolls and the max I've had to do for one module at G5 is 8 rolls and its maxed out.

Also we now don't have the ridiculousness of going back two grades if we want experimental effects (or didn't get the one we wanted)
 
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It takes a different breed of cat to explore for 5000 hours, and probably not the same breed that wants to run dangerous missions or find get rich quick schemes.

That's me, bebee. Less than 100 jumps into my epic journey towards Beagle Point and I'm already getting distracted by gas giants 1000 LS from the star with 10 orbiting moons. Then I get a landing icon and into the SRV... I might get to BP by Xmas!

And as regards grinding in space games, sure it's been mentioned before but who recalls that wretched Hub mission in X:TC? That last section where you had to get microchips I was so bored I ended up building several capital ships I never actually used, while my traders circled my fabs picking up m/c's 10 or 15 at a time. In the end I actually came off the game and left it for about three months to go back and finish. And all so at the end that little squiddy bar steward Mahi Ma can say, "Okay, take me home now."
 
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Roger that. Uninstalling now :)

Why would you uninstall. Just play in a different way if you don't want to grind out your goals. It really us entirely up to you how you go about getting your goals. Grind them out in the shortest and most boring way possible. Or do it the long way and have fun on the way.

The choice is yours. Not too sure why you think you need to uninstall to stop grinding in ED. The only bit of grind I have done was the 500t of mining to open up one of the engineers. But that was my choice to do it all in one go and even then I could have done it in different way to make it more enjoyable but slightly slower. I won't complain about that as it was my choice.
 
I honestly miss the days of Alpha where everybody pretty much shared the same idea of what Elite Dangerous should look like. The forum was a buzz of excitement and anticipation.

These days all I read is ... "the game is so dull / such a grind after 4 billion hours logged! I rage quit because this game is a ripoff! Etc.

Lol

White knights / forum dads / Care Bears ... WHO CARES!

Fly / don't fly ... its all shiny!
 
Don't grind. That's all can be said.

This!

No-one can force me to play ED. If I'm playing it, I chose to. If I'm not enjoying playing it, I chose to do something I don't enjoy! That's, well, sub-rational. It's pointless to look for someone else to blame for my poor choices.
 
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Solution: Make space smaller. Put all required Mats/minerals/tech/ships/etc available free on a flat lowG planet, Make all weaponry insta-kill, and give ranks free on loadup each day...oh and you get 10 billion creds on loadup each day too.

There we go, all the problems sorted, enjoy the game.


(Did I miss making hyperjump point-to-point, HUGE station opening and auto everything module?)

:D
 
Why would you uninstall. Just play in a different way if you don't want to grind out your goals. It really us entirely up to you how you go about getting your goals. Grind them out in the shortest and most boring way possible. Or do it the long way and have fun on the way.

The choice is yours. Not too sure why you think you need to uninstall to stop grinding in ED. The only bit of grind I have done was the 500t of mining to open up one of the engineers. But that was my choice to do it all in one go and even then I could have done it in different way to make it more enjoyable but slightly slower. I won't complain about that as it was my choice.

Ah sorry it was a joke. Actually it's the only thing I can play at the moment since my normal poison (Planetside) doesn't run on my laptop.

It is usually an occasional thing for me. I'm still waiting (living in hope) for epic thargoid violence. Its been a long wait but did finally make Elite exploration last week.
 
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