Game Discussions Microsoft Flight Simulator

[askavir]

Oh dear, you're not making it easy for me...
Will watch the videos!

The T16000M set was my first HOTAS (joystick + throttle, no pedals).

It has probably the best "bang for buck" ratio on all HOTAS in the market. Loads of buttons, hats, several analog axis, etc. Also it's very ergonomic and comfortable, if "feels good" when using it. And it has enough buttons, hats and axis for ED as well.

It's a bit of hit and miss with reliability though. Many people report issues with joystick twist axis failing (including myself, and in my case one of the paddles on the throttle also failed), but many other people report never having any issues with it, so I guess it's a matter of luck.

If has the advantage of individual parts (joystick, throttle, pedals) also being available for sale separately so if you need to replace one of them it will be cheaper than "everything included" sets. It is also very plug-and-play, most flying games already have builtin presets for it.

The only cons were the pieces being a bit too light and tending to slide on the table (especially the throttle), which is fixable by placing some object preventing their movement or some rugged surface under it, and the throttle becoming a bit "sticky" which was quite noticeable when doing small throttle adjustments, but like many others I fixed it by applying a silicone based grease on the throttle rails (like the one used for lubing running treadmills for instance).

Even though I had a bad experience with reliability (which could be down to bad luck), I also had a great experience using it. I now use a Logitech X56 RGB, and I love it, but I would have never convinced myself to spend 280$ on the X56 without the T16000M showing me first how great is using a HOTAS, so the T16000M will always have a cozy place in my vault of fond memories.

See, this is why I'm concerned about the hole I'm digging myself into, this is getting expensive pretty quickly.

Don't want to rain on your parade, but I must warn you that flight sims are, indeed, both money pits and inescapable rabbit holes...

 

[VR StarLightPL]

TFRP Pedals have bad ergonomics for me. I wouldn't recommend them unless you're some kind of supermodel with thin sticks instead of legs and an insanely thin hips. They are way too close for me to use comfortably, and I'm average built.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

As a sidenote, OA is now making much more FS videos. He released one for Elite and FS each in the past 15 hours, yet the FS video has 3x as much views even though OA is not as well known in the flight sim community... the writing is on the wall

Well it's the new shiny toy vs the old and neglected by developers, worn out childhood plushie which you start to be ashamed of still using Also as niches go, ED is like a crack in the wall vs a cave which is MSFS. Nothing surprising there.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

fixable by placing some object preventing their movement or some rugged surface under it

I ended up buying one of these wide mouse mats for my desk, I believe it was 90x35cm, all sliding gone. I need to do the greasing stuff still, don't have the right grease for it.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Don't want to rain on your parade, but I must warn you that flight sims are, indeed, both money pits and inescapable rabbit holes...

I know, and I'm not challenging the arguments about getting a better HOTAS either.

I have just a strong personal definition of value and don't like to cross certain thresholds. Plus, I tend to enjoy things many would consider compromised, so I was OK to have a racing seat only with low-mid end steering wheel as well as playing Elite VR with KB+M.
When playing Warships, I am also quite restrained in spending compared to most long-term returning players.

Again, I heard all the points loud and clear (and many thanks for pointing them out), and will reconsider the options.

Well it's the new shiny toy vs the old and neglected by developers, worn out childhood plushie which you start to be ashamed of still using Also as niches go, ED is like a crack in the wall vs a cave which is MSFS. Nothing surprising there.

With Elite I'm already at stage 5 of grief (just passed bargaining and skipped depression, obviously ), accepted that it's time is up for me.
Having said that, I'm not really sure whether Elite's niche is that much narrower. MS FS's core gameplay is afterall the flight simulation without combat or any other purpose, and most of those who play it on arcade settings to visit POIs like as if it were a glorified Google Earth will get bored of it early - by comparison Elite has tons of gameplay and even insta-gratification like mining.
My point is that MS simply succeeded to broaden the core appeal of an otherwise extremely niche genre by doing something extraordinary, and Elite just fell short of that despite having had a great start - and it shows in OAs content mix and views count.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

I have just a strong personal definition of value and don't like to cross certain thresholds. Plus, I tend to enjoy things many would consider compromised, so I was OK to have a racing seat only with low-mid end steering wheel as well as playing Elite VR with KB+M.

Elite with HOTAS is miles more immersive in my opinion, but I still prefer X: Rebirth VR motion controls. Too bad I can't force knuckles to work as Oculus touch, but wands will work too... But I digress. I wouldn't call Elite VR with KB+M "compromised", I'd go for "severely crippled". I know minmaxers PvPers play the game with KB+M, but... HOTAS is soo much better in conveying "flying your own ship" feeling that KB+M is IMHO massively inferior. They say "ignorance is bliss" for a reason. Once you try it you're highly unlikely to return to KB+M, in my opinion.

Regarding value for money:

The T16000M set was my first HOTAS (joystick + throttle, no pedals).

It has probably the best "bang for buck" ratio on all HOTAS in the market. Loads of buttons, hats, several analog axis, etc. Also it's very ergonomic and comfortable, if "feels good" when using it. And it has enough buttons, hats and axis for ED as well.

I can only echo this. If you are even remotely interested in flight sims, combat or not, T16000 + throttle will offer probably the best value for money, while still not being insanely expensive like the Warthog "system", and it has the same precision sensors. I have mine since 2018, not that it had seen very heavy use as I play many other games, but it still works.

That said, I got so sucked into DCS's F/A-18C that I do consider going for the dedicated F-18 grip... I don't have that kind of disposable money though and my priority list includes flat renovation next year (ouch), and Nvidia GPU this year (lesser but still ouch), so I understand your "pain".

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Elite with HOTAS is miles more immersive in my opinion, but I still prefer X: Rebirth VR motion controls. Too bad I can't force knuckles to work as Oculus touch, but wands will work too... But I digress. I wouldn't call Elite VR with KB+M "compromised", I'd go for "severely crippled". I know minmaxers PvPers play the game with KB+M, but... HOTAS is soo much better in conveying "flying your own ship" feeling that KB+M is IMHO massively inferior. They say "ignorance is bliss" for a reason. Once you try it you're highly unlikely to return to KB+M, in my opinion.

Regarding value for money:

I can only echo this. If you are even remotely interested in flight sims, combat or not, T16000 + throttle will offer probably the best value for money, while still not being insanely expensive like the Warthog "system", and it has the same precision sensors. I have mine since 2018, not that it had seen very heavy use as I play many other games, but it still works.

That said, I got so sucked into DCS's F/A-18C that I do consider going for the dedicated F-18 grip... I don't have that kind of disposable money though and my priority list includes flat renovation next year (ouch), and Nvidia GPU this year (lesser but still ouch), so I understand your "pain".

Well, Elite's gameplay is very much about other things like searching the map, ship menus, or doing mundane stuff like navigating around the star, that on long sessions KB+M was very comfortable plus I was able to chat and easily manage my keybinds even in VR.
But again, I never tried HOTAS for Elite and it seems I'll never will either. But as you say ignorance is a bliss, it took me a long time to try VR too.
***
Haha, we did a renovation two years ago, and it was actually easier to add a couple of PC upgrades (first time ever used items: 1080ti + CV1 Rift) as it was nothing compared the budget.
Again, it is not the single items that are a lot, but counting the upgrades related to Flight Sim are $1k, then very well may be a new GPU for another $1k (and that's cheap by today's standards)... plus a new business venture I'm financing from my own savings, car maintenance/MOT... and I have to explain all these things for my wife.

 

[Faded Glory]

I'll just jump in here regarding the T16000M.

As others have pointed out, it's a really nice accurate stick (and the throttle from the HOTAS set is great) and I used it for ED for a few years, moving up from the T Flight X. I mean really accurate, I went from being totally unable to use fixed weapons to using them on pretty much all my ships. It's also (IMO) ergonomically nice.

But it does have a flaw, which is the yaw axis. I went through three sticks and the yaw axis failed on all of them. There is a potential fix to this issue which requires taking the stick apart, cleaning the potentiometer and shaving a bit of plastic from the inside of the stick. I did this once and the stick worked fine for a bit, but then the yaw axis failed again. I gave up on the stick and am fortunate that I could get a VKB Gunfighter, but that's a whole different beast at nearly $400. I still use the throttle.

So just be aware that this is a fairly common issue with the T16000M stick. It may take a long while if you don't use the stick heavily, but I'd say there is a very high chance that it will happen at some point. Of course, if you can pick up a spare on sale they are very cheap, around $30.

So, a great and accurate stick, but flawed IMHO. (The yaw failure results in the stick yawing on its own.)

 

[Spaceman Si]

So just be aware that this is a fairly common issue with the T16000M stick. It may take a long while if you don't use the stick heavily, but I'd say there is a very high chance that it will happen at some point. Of course, if you can pick up a spare on sale they are very cheap, around $30.

So, a great and accurate stick, but flawed IMHO. (The yaw failure results in the stick yawing on its own.)

Yep, the stick yaw pots aren't great. Mine went in about 6 months. But the rest of the outfit is perfectly fine, and I just moved the yaw onto the throttle paddles, which is actually better in my view. I've also got CH Pro pedals, which take the load off it altogether

Synchronicity being what it is, there is a current thread in DD about fixing the Yaw Pots with Hall sensors. Why Thrustmaster couldn't do this themselves is beyond me, it would add about a tenner to the build cost by the looks of it. Check out this thread here for more information and an excellent "how to" guide on the hall sensor replacement.

The other thing to absolutely do with a T16000 HOTAS is get some Nyogel 767A and lube up the throttle rails at least. The difference is astounding!

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I have a Warthog. Bought it in 2014. Still working.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I'll just jump in here regarding the T16000M.

As others have pointed out, it's a really nice accurate stick (and the throttle from the HOTAS set is great) and I used it for ED for a few years, moving up from the T Flight X. I mean really accurate, I went from being totally unable to use fixed weapons to using them on pretty much all my ships. It's also (IMO) ergonomically nice.

But it does have a flaw, which is the yaw axis. I went through three sticks and the yaw axis failed on all of them. There is a potential fix to this issue which requires taking the stick apart, cleaning the potentiometer and shaving a bit of plastic from the inside of the stick. I did this once and the stick worked fine for a bit, but then the yaw axis failed again. I gave up on the stick and am fortunate that I could get a VKB Gunfighter, but that's a whole different beast at nearly $400. I still use the throttle.

So just be aware that this is a fairly common issue with the T16000M stick. It may take a long while if you don't use the stick heavily, but I'd say there is a very high chance that it will happen at some point. Of course, if you can pick up a spare on sale they are very cheap, around $30.

So, a great and accurate stick, but flawed IMHO. (The yaw failure results in the stick yawing on its own.)

Yep, the stick yaw pots aren't great. Mine went in about 6 months. But the rest of the outfit is perfectly fine, and I just moved the yaw onto the throttle paddles, which is actually better in my view. I've also got CH Pro pedals, which take the load off it altogether

Synchronicity being what it is, there is a current thread in DD about fixing the Yaw Pots with Hall sensors. Why Thrustmaster couldn't do this themselves is beyond me, it would add about a tenner to the build cost by the looks of it. Check out this thread here for more information and an excellent "how to" guide on the hall sensor replacement.

The other thing to absolutely do with a T16000 HOTAS is get some Nyogel 767A and lube up the throttle rails at least. The difference is astounding!

Ooooh, ghost inputs on the steering wheel pedals were just disgraceful.

That fix recommends buying something else instead.

Edit:
Question: is the T16000M throttle a separate unit? Say, if I get this issue with the yoke and can't fix it, could I upgrade the stick only? I've seen this nice Airbus edition coming out from Thrustmaster and the stick itself alone is not that expensive.

 

[askavir]

Love the beginning of this video, how easy and streamlined the whole taxi and takeoff tower comms process is. And love how we can navigate on the ground taxiways using visual markers allocated by ATC. Immersion overdrive!

 

[askavir]

Question: is the T16000M throttle a separate unit? Say, if I get this issue with the yoke and can't fix it, could I upgrade the stick only? I've seen this nice Airbus edition coming out from Thrustmaster and the stick itself alone is not that expensive.

Yes, all 3 individual pieces of the T16000M set (joystick, throttle and pedals) can be bought individually.

Also, every piece is handled by the PC as an individual standalone controller, so you can mix and match stuff from different sets / manufacturers if you like, like for instance you can use the T16000M throttle with another hotas joystick.

 

[PiLhEaD]

...Edit:
Question: is the T16000M throttle a separate unit? Say, if I get this issue with the yoke and can't fix it, could I upgrade the stick only? I've seen this nice Airbus edition coming out from Thrustmaster and the stick itself alone is not that expensive.

The joystick and throttle are seperate units on the 'T.16000M FCS HOTAS' and each uses its own USB connection. This is not all good news as the yaw axis that used to be presented as a single input (from the T.Flight) now appears (natively) as separate inputs, confusing some games.

I moved from a T.Flight HOTAS X to a T.16000M FCS HOTAS when, after many years of reliable service, the T.Flight joystick yaw started drifting.

In summary, if I known what I know now I'd possibly have stuck with the T.Flight, although It would be a close call for me.

IMHO:

the extra buttons on the T.16000M FCS THROTTLE are well placed and very helpful... but... you can get round this using VoiceAttack and/or other devices​

the extra buttons on the T.16000M FCS JOYSTICK are awkwardly placed​

the horizontal-plane throttle action is prone to sticking - you can work around this a bit, but there is something that 'just feels right' about a throttle that moves in an arc​

the T.16000 joystick feels better in use than the T.Flight​

both are good enough in their own way​

 

[Faded Glory]

Edit:
Question: is the T16000M throttle a separate unit? Say, if I get this issue with the yoke and can't fix it, could I upgrade the stick only? I've seen this nice Airbus edition coming out from Thrustmaster and the stick itself alone is not that expensive.

As the others have said, yes they are separate entities that can be purchased separately (they each have a USB cable and connect to the PC separately), and as I mentioned, when you find the stick on sale it's very cheap. Also, if it fails during the warranty period TM will replace it. They'll ask for video proof of it ghost yawing then ask you to send them a picture with the cable cut and will send you a replacement.

And again yes, you can use the throttle (which IMO is good) with another stick. I use the throttle that came with the HOTAS with my VKB Gunfighter stick.

 

[askavir]

Esteemed fellow virtual pilots with beta access, if I may ask (and if the NDA allows you to answer, else disregard), how easily does the multiplayer work?

More precisely, how easy do you believe it would be for a group of players to organize a small trip together? Something like 10/15 people intentionally starting at the same airfield in small planes and travel somewhere together as a group? (a bit like Distant Worlds but with small planes). Does everyone share the same "game world", or it's a matter of chance and people might end up not seeing each other even if in the same place?

btw, can you talk with people in other planes?

Thanks!

 

[Fishy]

Esteemed fellow virtual pilots with beta access, if I may ask (and if the NDA allows you to answer, else disregard), how easily does the multiplayer work?

More precisely, how easy do you believe it would be for a group of players to organize a small trip together? Something like 10/15 people intentionally starting at the same airfield in small planes and travel somewhere together as a group? (a bit like Distant Worlds but with small planes). Does everyone share the same "game world", or it's a mre'satter of chance and people might end up not seeing each other even if in the same place?

btw, can you talk with people in other planes?

Thanks!

Depending on how easy that is, we could set up some guided tours between ourselves to introduce people to our local area.
And there's always Discord for easy voice chat.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Now, all we need is BBQ grills, and we can have fly-in's...

 

[askavir]

Depending on how easy that is, we could set up some guided tours between ourselves to introduce people to our local area.
And there's always Discord for easy voice chat.

I can totally imagine groups of people flying small cubs through the Grand Canyon, or following the panama canal, or enroute to any McMurdock base in antarctica, or following the great wall, etc... (assuming it's possible).

 

[askavir]

Now, all we need is BBQ grills, and we can have fly-in's...

Or gather together and have barbecues in some remote airfield. I'll bring the hot sauce!