More Utilities, More Problems.

Toasted

T
So let's take a look at the intended mechanics of the 'strom for a moment.
To survive, you'll want caustic sinks. This isn't required because you can have a suitably large ship repair you with C7 limpets, but if you're solo, C-sinks are a must.
To get into the 'strom centre, you NEED the pulse neutraliser. This isn't optional.

So right now, with friends, you can actually get into the centre with an Eagle. Solo, you can use any of the small 2 ultility ships.

However, with the introduction of the new Pulse analyser for the titan, we have completely eliminated the Eagle and iEagle.

Solo? We have completely eliminated all 2 utility ships, of which there are:
Adder
Asp Scout
Cobra Mk III
Cobra Mk IV
Hauler
Sidewinder
Viper
Viper Mk IV

Fantastic. 10 ships that cannot solo the 'strom.

Let's say you now want 4 utilities. It's not unreasonable to want a xeno scanner, for instance. Perhaps this functionality will be rolled into the Pulse wave scanner, who is to tell, but if it is not, we now lose:
Dolphin
Keelback
Type-6 Transporter

We're now at 13 ships that have issues with the new content.

Now let's consider that you might, for instance, want a heatsink. Totally not unreasonable to want this in your build. We now lose:
Alliance Challenger
Alliance Chieftain
Alliance Crusader
Asp Explorer
Diamondback Explorer
Diamondback Scout
Federal Assault Ship
Federal Dropship
Federal Gunship
Imperial Clipper
Imperial Courier
Krait Mk II
Krait Phantom
Orca
Python
Type-7 Transporter
Type-9 Heavy
Vulture

18 ships, bringing our total to 31 ships.

This leaves the only ships capable of fielding MORE than 4 utilities, which are:
Beluga Liner
Fer-de-Lance
Mamba
Anaconda
Federal Corvette
Imperial Cutter
Type-10 Defender

7 ships. 7 whole, slap banging ships. Not to mention that 2 of those are locked behind the reputation grind.

In short: There needs to be a different approach to this; it's getting out of hand. We're literally losing the ability to use ships as more modules are pumped out, without consideration for how it's impacting the ships that would use them.
 

Kira Goto

Kira Goto
Definitely not disagreeing with the point here, but it does appear that the pulse wave xeno scanner(those names are really starting to get out of hand too) has both the pulse wave scanning function, and regular xeno scanning, though I don’t know to what range for the latter.

Unless you’re looking at caustic generators or getting glyph readouts on Thargoids(which I still can’t tell what meaning or purpose those serve other than to add flair), the main use of the scanner is to see what type of Thargoid you’re dealing with without it already shooting at you, so it should fill that function just fine.

(Source - people buying the module because Frontier made it available by accident. I haven’t snatched one myself.)
 

Argyria

Argyria
Next module unlock, coming soon…
IMG_1280.jpeg
 

Jmanis

Jmanis
I get the point, but on the same token we've also had in the game:
  • Kill Warrant Scanner
  • Frame Shift Wake Scanner
  • Manifest Scanner

... now.. the problem (and yes, I'm doing this old rant...) is that FD have never, ever built core activity loops with these at the heart of specific needs of these activites. When I say "Core activity loop" I mean things like missions, or a broader school of activity like "Combat"

KWS - Will give you some additional credits if you decide to pack one. Nothing mandates this though
Frame Shift Wake Scanner - Probably used by engineer mat grinders instead of just stocking up and cross-trading for wake data. Not actually mandated for any activity in the game except maybe PvP if you're hunting someone
Manifest Scanner - Probably holds the most utility, scanning megaship cargoholds for items of interest e.g Thargoid Probes, or for scanning NPC ships to see if they hold LTDs and such... notable caveat being I wouldn't call these core activities[1].

I'm confident these don't have any associated core activities because I'm one of these naive people whom, especially in my exploration fits, fits all these things. Heck, I even fit seismic charges and abrasion blasters for a rainy day... in case I find some explorable that needs to be cracked to reveal something unique. Of course... that's never the case.

Meanwhile, my mission ship fits similarly, but also includes a host of limpets. MLCs fit nicely into this, because I also need to include repair/refuel/recon/hatch break/ collector limpets in that mix, for all the different USS that happen to occur, or if i happen to do hijack/salvage missions. And believe it or not, besides wing combat missions, things are actually fairly well balanced around that, and becomes very easy to do once you sprinkle some engineering in.

The problem FD are facing now is, to date, they've balanced everything in Thargoid stuff around people fitting all-tank or all-speed ships dedicated in-entirity to fighting goids. Tissue sampling didn't break the bank there as a universal controller + CRCR fills that bill without really hurting much.

But all this? Players aren't used to having to weaken their fit to achieve utility effects. The game doesn't need you to. And it appears, neither is FD.

Personally I welcome the need for all these utility bells and whistles (and I hate to tell you this... don't forget there'll probably be a Xeno Frame Shift Wake Scanner in the future...); the need to fit that sort of thing as-mandatory for game loops has long been neglected and is the single, best counter to shield/hull-stack meta. And it kinda makes sense for there to be a fleet of fittings specific for xeno activities.

But FD have really ramped up the difficulty of Thargoids in response to player fittings to date, which have not included that. They've all of a sudden gone "Oh yeah, we have utility functions in this game" and just bolted them on, rather than integrated them into the experience meaning yeah, the range of viable ships is becoming very limited. And that sucks.

[1] I realise that suggests I'm saying NPC piracy isn't a core activity... I think that lets you know how under-developed I see crime being in the game right now.
 

tolm

tolm
100% agree … utility slots are getting out of hand … I mean, it’s conceivable that one might want a Shutdown Field Neutraliser as well … and there will surely be some “Guardian Weapon Destruction Field Neutraliser” along shortly ...

Medium ships are being forced out of the AX game!
 

Planewalker

Planewalker
I can't. Endgame content requiring endgame tools isn't an issue, much less a problem.



And KWS/WS/MS are good fun when you play the game as an organic sim; you don't need missions while doing that.
(MS is also the only one that can find those super rare SAP8 containers along with other collectibles)
 

Toasted

T
Planewalker said:
I can't. Endgame content requiring endgame tools isn't an issue, much less a problem.
Click to expand...
My brother in christ this theorycrafting is based around a completely shieldless AX meta, you want a shield and some hi-cap boosters? Better get you some 6 slot utility ships.

More to the point; this then makes the game tedious. You want the challenge of a smaller ship? Well screw you. It's a bit like the glaive somewhat forcing AX MC's on people. It constricts styles of play. Anaconda play is boring.

The larger point is; there are different ways to go about this that aren't simply throwing more modules and unlocks at the player. We could, for instance, have carried cargo, like a probe, that once jettisonned created a hole in the 'strom and allowed entry. Instead we got shutdown field 2.0.
 

DemiserofD

D
It would be nice if they released some new small-only bulkheads with special effects to reduce the necessity for some of this stuff, thereby giving small ships a niche.

Imagine if you could get a small-only Meta Alloy Bulkhead, that gave immunity to caustic damage over time AND allowed you to enter the maelstrom without the pulse neutralizer? Heck, make it protect you from the guardian damaging field, too. That'd make small ships actually viable for AX combat for the first time ever!
 

CMDR Rabbit

CMDR Rabbit
DemiserofD said:
It would be nice if they released some new small-only bulkheads with special effects to reduce the necessity for some of this stuff, thereby giving small ships a niche.

Imagine if you could get a small-only Meta Alloy Bulkhead, that gave immunity to caustic damage over time AND allowed you to enter the maelstrom without the pulse neutralizer? Heck, make it protect you from the guardian damaging field, too. That'd make small ships actually viable for AX combat for the first time ever!
Click to expand...
A limpety thing that carves a tunnel through the maelstrom, using the interdiction mechanics to stay "on target" and follow your tunneller limpet thing through the cavity created.

Easier in a smaller manoeuvrable ship but doesn't bar larger sips completely.
 

Jmanis

Jmanis
Toasted said:
My brother in christ this theorycrafting is based around a completely shieldless AX meta, you want a shield and some hi-cap boosters? Better get you some 6 slot utility ships.

More to the point; this then makes the game tedious. You want the challenge of a smaller ship? Well screw you. It's a bit like the glaive somewhat forcing AX MC's on people. It constricts styles of play. Anaconda play is boring.

The larger point is; there are different ways to go about this that aren't simply throwing more modules and unlocks at the player. We could, for instance, have carried cargo, like a probe, that once jettisonned created a hole in the 'strom and allowed entry. Instead we got shutdown field 2.0.
Click to expand...
The other side of this is that there's no steadily- increasing curve to the challenge.

Like, we've got the maelstrom at the core of each invasion... big bad thing, makes sense... and there's a logic that would even suggest "big ships only".

Where's some more minor staging posts elsewhere in the maelstrom system, or in the controlled systems, where as thargoids exert more control, they start to embed more, develop more infrastructure. We know the different interceptor variants are older, more developed iterations... it's likely the titans are further "grown" versions, but significantly moreso. Where's the in- between? Something a bit bigger than a hydra, but nowhere near a titan, forming a minor rally point, where it's much safer to do noncom activities and not have a completely meta fit?

To go deeper... without resorting to synth, going in to a maelstrom really needs two corrosive sinks... there needs to be some form of outpost where maybe one is needed to be viable, and no xeno pulse is needed, and more minor xeno interactions exist.

It's just too all or nothing atm.
 

MVBanks

MVBanks
I can just give you a fresh example which describes that problem. Yesterday I visited Maelstrom Taranis in cold Imperial Clipper, to try new PWXS and everything went well. In utility mounts I have Caustic Sink, PWXS, preenginered heatsink, and Thargoid Pulse Neutraliser. I was able to collect some Titan tissue samples, every limpet returned one sample. But when I travelled back, two jumps to my FC, I was attacked by Glaive, don't remember was it hyper or interdiction, and I decided to fight - with 4 AX MCs I'm sure I'll win. But short after we started the fight, another bigger Interceptor jumped in, used his shutdown field, and then they killed me, because I had no Shutdown field neutraliser. It's not my fault - there's simply not enough utility slots. Rebuy is not important, I was saddened by the lost samples, as they were my first Titan samples, and also by the wasted time.
Today morning I was successfull, I collected some Titan samples and travelled back without problems - I can outrun standard Interceptors or kill Glaives - but it's not good feeling when you know that the same scenario could happen again.
 

tolm

tolm
DemiserofD said:
It would be nice if they released some new small-only bulkheads with special effects to reduce the necessity for some of this stuff, thereby giving small ships a niche.

Imagine if you could get a small-only Meta Alloy Bulkhead, that gave immunity to caustic damage over time AND allowed you to enter the maelstrom without the pulse neutralizer? Heck, make it protect you from the guardian damaging field, too. That'd make small ships actually viable for AX combat for the first time ever!
Click to expand...
A caustic resist shield generator but only comes up to C4?
 

Factabulous

Factabulous
Been happily collecting mats from the Titan in a Dolphin / Phantom / Mamba - no issues and the Dolphin (despite having the fewest utility points (3)) was the most fun. Should be straight forward to collect the samples in the Dolphin - main issue is storage, but not much you can do about that in a small ship.

Also been collecting the samples in the Phantom. I don't think there's much benefit in a large ship as I can't see you filling it without relogging (which sends you back out of the Maelstrom). Some of the sample points are difficult to get at, so I think I've decided against building a Cutter. Will switch to the Dolphin today maybe, though I don't have a size 5 CRCR on that acct ... hopefully they'll be made re-available soon.

tl; dr : Sure - you can't use every ship for this (sad for my cobra-only CMDR), but that's been the case for everything in this game.
 

Alec Turner

Alec Turner
Nikephorus Phocas said:
This sucks. I want to use my chieftain to farm for some of the modules. Anyone have a good anti xeno/farming combo loadout for the Chieftain?
Click to expand...
Here's my Titan farming Chieftain (I've maxed out the three currently available mat's so can totally vouch for it).

Voyage of discovery to the heart of the maelstrom

How come you’re trying to do that in a Sidewinder of all ships? I’m not sure I’d feel prepared for the task if I only felt confident enough in my abilities(and/or money reserves) to take the least expensive and starting ship into an environment really unhealthy to continued ship existence...
forums.frontier.co.uk forums.frontier.co.uk

When the new scanner drops I'll probably sacrifice one of the caustic sink launchers but it will still be perfectly useable.

P.S. sorry, you mentioned anti-xeno too, no offensive capability on this build.
 

Rainbro

Rainbro
The FSD locking missiles are the main problem, as noted by others. First time they've been used by NPCs to my knowledge, and combined with the Glaive's speed, it removes the core option of running away unless you have yet more utilities to spend on an ECM.
It's not exactly a bad thing to do that, the war should continue to get more dangerous. It just sucks to have options removed. Fly a big ship or pray to RNG you don't encounter a Glaive.
 
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