Your views on PvP and PvE are so limited as to be useless. It's like children watching Saturday Morning cartoons and trying to have a meaningful discussion on 'good vs. evil.'
Your views on PvP and PvE are so limited as to be useless. It's like children watching Saturday Morning cartoons and trying to have a meaningful discussion on 'good vs. evil.'
Really? Entire genres of games with thriving PvP communities which don't meet your absurdly narrow definition and that's the best answer you can come up with?
Certainly not, but it is the only answer necessary. Context is everything, and in other genres "Player versus Player" can mean different things, but in an open world game where there is an entire environment to interact with, PvP is entirely different. This is especially the case in a game built on the premise of absolute freedom where the players themselves are permitted to determine what is what. For the dev team to then arbitrate what constitutes PvP is a step in the wrong direction. Ergo, for the purposes of development, PvP is strictly defined to ensure it doesn't become an overwhelming focus. In other games, however, PvP is the sole focus. That should not be the case here.
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OP - I could spend the entire time I play this game in open if I never went to a CG, Jameson, an engineer base or a newbie system.
Where do lions hang out? Watering holes. Not in a huge empty desert.
It is possible to go to those high traffic areas in Open, but you must be mindful of your surroundings. Some folks don't want that stress.
Where do lions hang out? Watering holes. Not in a huge empty desert.
It is possible to go to those high traffic areas in Open, but you must be mindful of your surroundings. Some folks don't want that stress.
It's not 'stress'. More like an annoyance.
Now who's moving the goalposts?
You basically seem to be saying "PvP is combat, except when that doesn't serve my argument". Earlier, you seemed to be using PvP focused games as your justification for why PP is not PvP, now you're saying those games are not relevant to the discussion?
But ok, we'll roll with that. Lets ignore all the games like sports games etc. I refer you again to Elder Scrolls Online. it's a similar age to ED, and up until recently, its dedicated PvP mode was Cyrodil. In Cyrodil, players from different factions run around fighting wach other and trying to capture forts and resource from the other factions. It is generally expected that this includes combat between players, but it doesn't actually have to, and plenty of players specialise in slipping past the front lines and running around capturing resources and forts without ever seeing an opposing player. It is still considered to be a PvP game mode though, even though it is entirely possible to play in it without ever fighting another player directly.
In fact, that dedicated PvP mode has more right to be called PvE than Powerplay does. You actually have to fight NPCs.
This is the other problem. PP has almost no actual PvE. You aren't actually playing AGAINST the computer. There are no NPC factions competing against the factions the player can join, no NPC pilots undermining, and most of the activities in Powerplay involve transporting something between stations, not actually opposing NPCs in any way. The only actual PvE in Powerplay happens if you attack NPCs as part of a "combat" type goal, or if you are randomly interdicted by an NPC ship while carrying out a Powerplay activity. Both of which can be equally applied to a player CMDR if you play in open. However, player CMDRs will also intelligently anticipate which systems you are likely to be working in and come looking for you there.
So the "action" of PP is not PvE (at least not to any greater extent than it is PvP), and the overall "win condition" (ie winning in your chosen systems each cycle, advancing your faction while preventing other factions doing the same) of PP is categorically not PvE, and is PvP.
So what you're saying is that you've never actually played PowerPlay. Since you haven't, let me tell you the first thing that happens when you declare for a power:
You become a target for every NPC ship that's aligned with any power that isn't yours.
And my argument for context is solid. These other games you have mentioned PvP is their focus, and in those games that have a PvP mode, PvP is the focus in those modes. In those modes everything that is done is intended to bring players into conflict. Here in Elite, we also have a PvP mode. It's called CQC. In CQC PvP is the focus, and that's the problem with your argument. You're comparing Elite, a game that doesn't have a focus on PvP to games and game modes that are focused on PvP. That's where you've gone wrong. Context.
Elite is not a PvP game, it is a PvE game with optional PvP. In other words, PvE is the focus, PvP is not. We have a mode set aside for players who want PvP, so perhaps instead of destroying the PvE focus of the main game they focus on providing the PvP community with what they want in the CQC mode? Why not revamp CQC? Why not introduce resource control and other competitive game elements into CQC? Why the hell do they feel the need to corrupt the main game that was never intended to PvP focused?
Context really is everything.
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Firstly, actually powerplay is my main activity when I'm not grinding mats for engineering etc. That's probably why I've been playing since just before Horizons came out, and yet my total assets are less than 250m credits (a 10m DBS, a 10m Type 6, a 180m Python and about 35m in the bank. Yes you are targeted by NPCs, but no combat is required, since you can submit, boost and jump again, usually without a single shot being fired. NPC interdictions are a joke.
Also, I'm the games I'm comparing ED to are not PvP focused games, they are either equally focused between both PvP and PvE or they are more PvE focused than PvP. You say that ED is a PvE game with optional PvE, but that is your bias, not a fact. It could equally be argued that ED ia PvP game with optional PvE, and that arguement would hold as much water as yours does. I think the reality is that ED is neither, and is intended to be balanced between the two, and I think FD's statements over the years support that.
That still leaves the fact that PP is about direct contention between factions, and those factions are ENTIRELY driven by players. This is fundamentally PvP (or RealmVsRealm, FactionVsFaction, or whatever else you want to call the mass version of PvP). In PP there may be incidental PvE along the way, but all your actions are contending directly with the actions of PLAYERS from other Factions, not NPCs. If you undermine, you are directly opposing the efforts of other PLAYERS working for other factions. No NPCs are affected at all.
Let's look at your earlier example (I think it was you mentioned Ark). If you played a game like Ark, and you're running around fighting other players, gathering resources, and building yourself a base, and the some guy comes along who is invisible and invulnerable, can't hurt you, but starts tearing down your base, and you can't do anything to stop him, what would you think?
That's exactly what Solo/PG PP undermining is like.
I don't neccesarily think PP needs to be open only, but if it isn't, undermining from Solo/PG needs to be stopped.
This is false. The games you have mentioned are either PvP focused, or have PvP focused modes. So, I will repeat what I said: We have a PvP mode here also, it's called CQC. All PvP content should be developed over there. That follows the pattern you have established.
And the idea that PP factions are player driven is also false. They are NPC factions with their own methods and means of expanding their influence. They are not entirely player driven, they are only partly player driven. An entirely player driven system would look more like EVE. If you want that, perhaps, it can be implemented in Colonia where genuine player factions exist.
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I never said they didn't have PvP focused modes, only that the games where not overall PvP focused, and having a PvP mode entirely fits being equally balanced between PvP and PvE as I said.
How are the factions NOT player driven???
They are ENTIRELY dependent on player actions, there are no NPC pilots helping prep systems, fortify or anything else. The ONLY involvment NPCs have is as decorative speedbumps, occasionally slowing players down by interdicting them, and making it feel a little "real" by filling out the game universe a bit.
How did we end up here?
From one player's experience in open, to arguing what constitutes PvP.
From one player's experience in open, to arguing what constitutes PvP.
Bob Lighthouse
Banned
Seeing as all modes affect the BGS, seems to me almost the whole game is PVP of sorts.
Yup, them pesky Solo players, PvP'ing all by themselves.
And that darn Mobius Group, PvP'ing without using their guns on each other at all, how dare they PvP that way.
