My issues with ED:O FPS gameplay

Here's a thing, though. I know we don't get a chance to pick up the guns/shields of our downed foes, as in Borderlands, but I've only just noticed that those weapons seem to vanish when their owners die.

Muh ummersion can't take this...
 
I agree with most of the OP.

Odyssey feels like it was made by people with no experience in making FPS, and very limited experience playing them. Which is likely true, after all. There are many "golden rules of FPS" that are basically ignored, and they slapped their own homebrewed stuff because obviously Fdev can do better than companies that have made FPS for decades.

Reinventing the wheel is usually a bad idea. Especially when your company is not known for making FPS games (did they make any ?), and as such, is lacking experience.

-the kin/laser-shield/health mechanic is completely bad. This is further emphasized by plasma weapon, which ignore the mechanic. The only way to balance that is to either nerf plasma to uselessness (currently the plasma AR), or let them dominate (the other plasma weapons). It works in space because we have always more than 1 weapon, so we can have half-half. In ground, it involves constantly switching, which is weird and clunky.
-pistols in FPS are sidearms. They support your main loadout. The golden rule is "switching to your sidearm is faster than reloading", and has been true for decades. It's also intended to offset your primary weakness (short range sidearm for a sniper rifle user, or the opposite for a shotgun/SMG player)
-FPS is all about awarding skills. Mostly through headshot (or weak point). Odyssey doesn't reward that when shield are up. There are no HS on shield. This need to go.
-No combined arm, and no combined arm mission. The CZ have ships and turret, but they are separate from the ground combat. Ship are super OP against ground troop, unless the ground troop have support from turrets, in this case they are super OP
-due to the aforementioned laser vs kin choice, weapons are not defined by what they are (IE sniper rifle is a sniper rifle), but what type of damage they do, since we don't have all the category for each type of damage. For example, there is only one sniper rifle and one shotgun.
-sniper rifles are not sniper rifles. In FPS, a sniper rifle is a pinpoint accurate gun with big burst damage. The biggest high skill-high reward gun of the spectrum. In Odyssey, the projectiles takes up to 2s to reach target, and is not pinpoint accurate (unless modded I think). Making it more a medium range weapon


How it would work :

-balance the 3damage types differently. Laser is hitscan but less damage. Kinetic is high damage but affected by gravity and slower. Plasma is even slower, but with a small AoE radius and highest damage. OFC this would need balancing around, but you get the idea.
-make sure each damage type has appropriate weapon type. Shotgun/pistol/AR/SMG for all, sniper would need some work (kinetic is a regular "big boom", but perhaps a DMR style rapid fire one for laser, and perhaps none for plasma ?).
-balance weapon around the damage property so they aren't useless compared to another. So, a laser shotgun would have less falloff, kinetic shoot faster/more ammo, plasma is lethal but limited ammos (kinda like now).
-headshot and weak point need to be rewarded at all time. High skill -> high reward.
-make melee MUCH stronger. In FPS, melee is highly rewarded because it's difficult to get into melee range in a shooter. Once again, high skill->high reward. In Odyssey, it does so little damage, it's best to keep shooting.

Then you'd need to tackle the combined arms aspect and so on, but that's be a start IMO.



OFC, that will never happen, but whatever.
 
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I really haven't had any major problems with EDO. The grind was pretty low and was able to max out and mod all three suits and half of all the guns inabout two months easy. If I had to criticize one thing, it would be the on foot conflict zones feel a bit "fake". Seems more like a training exercise then an actual war.
 
So, basically rip out 3 years work and replace it with a space battlefield clone which won't stand up well against other dedicated and hand-crafted FPS titles as ED isn't solely a FPS title.
Can't see that happening OP.
I wouldn't mind some changes, like maybe a change of stance(reduces ai visual range) when having a weapon drawn / crouch when not moving, bit like watchdogs... no need for a cover system though.
A weapon quick switch would seem a good idea since it is a required action and convoluted mechanics can be very annoying during combat...
Don't we do short posts anymore?
 
I'd consider myself a fan of FPS style games of varying genres. I enjoy both slower paced tactical shooters/mil-sims and more fast paced style shooters like CSGO and Siege. I've been playing many FPS games recently like Siege, HLL, DayZ, Arma, Hunt Showdown, etc and when I come back and play ED:O it just makes me laugh at how poor of a shooter it is.



Some points on ED:O's FPS gameplay:

- Too bullet spongey (mostly because of the awful design of the shields). Most shooters require maybe 1-4 shots to take someone out, not multiple magazines. This rewards accuracy and timing of well placed shots which is the main skill involved in shooters. Its also satisfying to 1 shot headshot with a sniper in HLL/Siege for example (even a headshot with any other weapon, whether it be a pistol or smg, will take someone out - realism). On the flip side, it makes the battlefield a million times more dangerous making for a much more tense and high stakes experience. Maybe Fdev didn't do this because they didn't want to give the OAP's in the community a heart attack while playing, who knows. Nerf Shield cap and regen or remove them imo. The high amount of ammo required to kill also adds the issue of running out of ammo often. You shouldn't be having to restock on ammo 2-4 times in a 10-15 min session in a CZ.

- The switching of weapon types for armour/shields was a failure of an experimental style of shooter imo. Maybe fixes and tweaks could make it work, but I think it is fundamentally a bad idea. Its tedious to babysit your weapons and switch between each one for every ... single ... enemy. Most fans of shooters will tell you that one of the annoying necessities is reloading and you always find yourself stuck in the reload animation at bad times (often resulting in death). This pain is doubled in Elite as you have 2 weapons to babysit. This has turned a necessary frustration into a completely unnecessary one. Remove the need for having 2 weapons by buffing Plasma travel times (but making Kinetic/Laser redundant) or buffing Kinetic against Shield and Laser against armour to the point where you can realistically use a full laser/kinetic loadout effectively (with the downside of making laser and kinetic basically the same weapon, hence why I think this double weapon mechanic is fundamentally bad).

- Engineering is way too grindy and needs to be reduced.

- Weapon design and animation is fairly standard and nothing really special or satisfying compared to the competition.

- Weapon sound design is poor, especially with kinetic weapons. Sounds like you're shooting a toy gun. Disappointing considering the quality of the sound design in the rest of the game.

- Grenades are fairly useless because its difficult to pre-determine the compensation you put on the throw when you are on such varying g planets. Most grenades rarely hit the target in open spaces as they bounce off into the distance. I don't think conventional grenades work in Elite and instead should be replaced with sticky grenades or impact grenades to make them more useful. Also an equivalent for a smoke and flash grenade is needed.

- The scopes in the game are a joke.

- Lack of any real sniper (the plasma sniper isn't a proper sniper. Its abysmal scope and long travel time makes it useless as a long range weapon. I also dont think the projectile can physically travel further than a few hundred meters before it fizzles out, maybe someone can verify the distance of the shot, but it doesn't seem to be far enough. (Its 3308 and this thing is less effective than a Mosin Nagant from the early 20th century, oof. If they do add proper long range weapons, they also need to add rangefinders/binoculars for spotting and also larger battlefields to accommodate for the larger distances (there's plenty of space on the billions of planets in the game).

- Customisation of the weapons is too limited. Needs larger variety of scopes, attachments that can be added/swapped (scrap the whole super-glued engineering attachments, who thought this was a good idea?)

- Variation of weapons is too small. Need more weapons of each type.

- No revive mechanic when most basic shooters have this. This is especially needed in Elite as death is usually quite punishing when you respawn far away from the conflict.

- Allow squad members the ability to respawn back at your ship and/or allow players the ability to construct temporary respawn points (like the Outpost/Garrison in HLL). These can of course be destroyed by enemy players/AI.

- No practical way for natural PvP to occur because of the distance between players in the game. (A way to concentrate players into a handful of ground conflict zones would maximise natural PvP activity. Maybe CG's could provide this.)

- Conflict zones are too basic and surface level. Its too "gamey". (Have larger battlefields with different "gamemodes" other than basic control points. Take a page out of HLL's book with large battlefields that requires proper tactics to manoeuvre. This allows for actual flanking and getting behind enemy lines which can be satisfying.)

- Ground AA is invincible as they magically regenerate about 2 mins after being destroyed. Unrealistic and unrewarding, literally no point in destroying them. This might be a bug however.

- Handheld AA rocket launcher with guided missiles is needed. Most modern mil-sims have them.

- Add a prone position and crawling animation. Prone position decreases weapon sway and increases accuracy. Also bipod attachments for increased stability.

- Get rid of nametags over players heads (maybe unless being right in front of them or if they are in your squad) as it can give away your position.

- Have a "Hold breath" feature for decreased weapon sway.

- Add the dropship capabilities from Frontline Solutions as a module for your ship, allowing you to drop players into the battlefield.

- Add proximity voice comms. Currently no way to really communicate with random players you see. Emotes only go so far and standing in the battlefield typing will likely get you killed.

- Allow NPC crew to go on foot and fight with you.

- Obviously performance needs to be improved across the board in CZ's and settlements in general. Nobody really likes to play FPS games at sub 60fps minimum unless you want a migraine.



EDIT: (Some extra points)

- Medpacks should have a few second animation and require the player to stand still. This will stop players just using them while running/flying in the air, balancing PvP. Also forces you to head for cover and actively remove yourself from the battle in order to heal up.

- Allow the ability to use medpacks/energy cells on others (I don't think its in the game currently).



These are some of the things that need to be added/fixed to elevate FPS gameplay to the point where it is even in the same conversation as some of the most standard shooter games out there. If the devs were not able to produce a decent quality shooter, they shouldn't have implemented it into the game and instead spent the dev time on other things imo.
While I agree with most of your points keep in mind that Odyssey is still a space exploration game and not an FPS game and even less and PVP FPS game. The FPS mechanics are there for diversity. Unfortunately, the main mechanics - the on-foot exploration is completely missing. Form the FPS mechanics I would live to see fixing of:

1. bullet sponges (when upgrading suit and weapons to add only slots and no resistances and damage)
2. to remove the need to use different weapons for shield and armour. This is just stupid. Instead, laser weapons need to take out the shield before start doing damage to armour, but they are more accurate and stable and can be shot from longer distances. Kinetic weapons penetrate shields and do direct armour damage, but they are less accurate. this will fix the jump and shoot mechanic as you will be more vulnerable while in the air and the jet pack will be used really to get on higher ground.
3. I fully support mechanics about reviving players, animation for medikit and so on.
 
While I agree with most of your points keep in mind that Odyssey is still a space exploration game
ED:H and certainly ED:O are not space exploration games. The game, as a whole, is as much a space exploration game as it is a space trading/combat game ... aka a space sim. With regards to Odyssey exclusively, it definitely cannot be called a space exploration game for the reasons outlined below.
Unfortunately, the main mechanics - the on-foot exploration is completely missing
How can ED:O be called a space exploration game when the content is "completely missing". FPS is a much richer and deeper part of the expansion and the majority of the content (settlements, suits, weapons, engineering, CZ's) is, at least, in someway related to FPS gameplay. Its like saying GTA V is a driving game because you can drive cars, or Battlefield V is a flight sim because you can fly planes. The expansion is a space sim as the commonality between all of its parts is that it is both set in space, and there is some sense of realism involved, same with the base game/horizons.
 
So, basically rip out 3 years work and replace it with a space battlefield clone which won't stand up well against other dedicated and hand-crafted FPS titles as ED isn't solely a FPS title.
Can't see that happening OP.
I wouldn't mind some changes, like maybe a change of stance(reduces ai visual range) when having a weapon drawn / crouch when not moving, bit like watchdogs... no need for a cover system though.
A weapon quick switch would seem a good idea since it is a required action and convoluted mechanics can be very annoying during combat...
Don't we do short posts anymore?
"So basically, [insert false statement here] and replace it with [insert false statement here] which [insert hypothetical argument about a hypothetical situation that isn't really related to the original point here] because [insert point about Elite not being an FPS title here] ..."

If that's how you want to simplify down the argument for your own understanding then be my guest, just don't expect me to have a serious discussion about your point.
 
I'm just curious, have those other games possibilty flying in spaceships and travel across Milky Way?

Well this IS really the problem, because obviously the answer is no, and there are reasons why.

I have not tried Odyssey yet (heh, i'm just trying Horizons out after watching from the sidelines for over 7 years!) but my gut feeling after reading much of the feedback from players, is that maybe (as in "maybe") it should have first been like CQC for the ships? A very specific 'gamey' pure FPS combat only thing separate from the main game, that you could earn Arx in or something that could contribute a little to the main ED game?

I applaud the ambition to dive right in and more or less say 'this is the future path of ED', but the task at hand was possibly harder than, for example, Hello Games going from making Joe Danger to No Man's Sky.

And we should always ask ourselves 'what is Elite?', what is it about Elite that has made it probably the longest running game franchise (with a large loyal fan-base) of all time, and what should we focus on to really carry on that legacy and journey. Still the die is cast and let's see where we go from here :)
 
The bullet sponginess comes from the fact that FD added upgrading (and to a lesser extent engineering) to the ground combat stuff.

This basically means when you are running around with Grade 1 stuff it can feel bullet spongy. When you get Grade 5 stuff (especially with engineering on top) enemies barely take any hits to take down.

It even gets to the point where sometimes i don't even bother switching weapons and continue to fire laser against armour or kinetic against shields, because at grade 5 it doesn't matter that much.

But to avoid making it feel like a grind, just do Odyssey missions and keep an eye on what you need to upgrade (always start from Grade 3 purchasable stuff) and treat upgrading as a side activity rather than the main activity. At the end of the day you can do CZs or any mission with grade 3 stuff anyway. Its not hard.

The only 2 engineering mods i would say are somewhat essential are night vision (especially for the mav for doing missions) and the two silenced weapon mods (although not that essential, you can always use your zapper as long as you don't alert your targets).

And if you don't enjoy the ground stuff, then you don't need any of it anyway! But if you do enjoy the ground stuff, then you'll slowly get what you need without grind.

Even with grade 3 equipment, high ground CZs are easy enough, no upgrading or engineering required.

Where i would recommend upgrading/engineering is for doing funky stuff like the dual L6 loadout. Yeah, its somewhat viable with just G3 L6, but a hell of a lot more fun with everything fully upgraded.
 
I have not tried Odyssey yet ...
I do, and on two accounts (one in bubble, one in colonia) where one have most maxed gear and second is somewhere in 2/3. The best is (my view) that it is FUN (no matter that there are other games which as pure FPS do better job ... but this is imo natural). Odyssey onfoot aspects offers much better gameplay balance, offers different ways how to play and offer completelly different perspective how this game look. I do not have (or can have) VR, so I can only say that if you fly in T9 and then disembark and look up, only then you can feel why this huge brick of steel must fly so. I play ED now 7th year and playing purely in ships simply lost its magic for me ... now with Odyssey possibilities I slowly find this magic back despite all these technical troubles which Odyssey release had.
 
This answer is not relevant in the context of this discussion. To be more precise, I meant mechanics exclusive to EDO.
Do you mean just the expansion. If so, why see it as a silo when it's not a singular entity. It's an expansion to an existing game, not separate game in its own right.

Of course the answer is relevant, as you taking a minor part of an overall game and trying to call it a FPS and comparing to games that only do First person shooting.

The whole discussion can be considered irrelevant then.
 
Most shooters require maybe 1-4 shots to take someone out, not multiple magazines.
I hear/read this statement too often, so I want to clarify: EDO FPS is grindy and highly unbalanced. With max gear and the right weapon, it takes 1-2 shots to take someone out. That's 3-6 kills without changing a single magazine (with the right weapon effects), using two of that weapon. When one is slow, one doesn't even ever have to change magazines.

Otherwise, valid criticism, but they don't care.
 
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The biggest issue i have is that the content is pointless to do.

Technical issues and balance aside the on-foot activities are just completely pointless.

Lets just assume for a moment all the balance was fixed, and everything worked smoothly. The elephant is still in the room of none of the OD content matters to the rest of ED as a whole.
Everything you do on foot, only serves to further your ability to do onfoot activates and nothing else. This is a major problem with the OD content, you can completly ignore it, 100% and you loose out on nothing, but you gain nothing either. There is nothing that links the content back to your ship. Look at Horizons, that actively altered the way you played the rest of ED. If you spent 100 hours doing horizon content, you would be able to engineer your ship, meaning you could fly faster, jump further, haul more, shoot and kill stuff better, explore better ect ect. It actively improved your ability to play the rest of the game.

Now look at OD, you could spend 500 hours running around on foot and doing foot content, and guess what, you dont have the ability to do anything else better in the game. You cant fight better, you dont get any modules for it, your ship does not get stronger, nothing. All you get is the ability to do on foot missions better, thats it, and thats great if you like on foot, but ED is a space sim, and ships are a very important component of that and OD does not offer anything to that.
 
Too bullet spongey

It really isn't, as long as you're fighting appropriately-leveled enemies, using matching weapons. For me, for example, killing even the toughest enemies in the game takes one shot from my laser pistol, and one burst of headshots from my assault rifle. And again, that's the toughest enemy in the game. This can be compared to Halo, where Elites can easily take more than that to take down, or games like Borderlands, where tough enemies take even longer.


The switching of weapon types for armour/shields was a failure of an experimental style of shooter imo.

It's worked just fine in many games prior, a particularly good example being, again, Borderlands. Borderlands has THREE types of health, and often has enemies with all of them. It's not a fundamental issue.


- Engineering is way too grindy and needs to be reduced. People fail to account for the fact that engineering 3 suits and 2 weapons is, essentially, 'end-game' for Odyssey. The amount of time it takes makes sense, in that context.

- Weapon design and animation is fairly standard and nothing really special or satisfying compared to the competition.

- Weapon sound design is poor, especially with kinetic weapons. Sounds like you're shooting a toy gun. Disappointing considering the quality of the sound design in the rest of the game.

- Grenades are fairly useless because its difficult to pre-determine the compensation you put on the throw when you are on such varying g planets. Most grenades rarely hit the target in open spaces as they bounce off into the distance. I don't think conventional grenades work in Elite and instead should be replaced with sticky grenades or impact grenades to make them more useful. Also an equivalent for a smoke and flash grenade is needed. This is a skill issue. Grenades are difficult to use, but also extremely powerful.

- The scopes in the game are a joke.

- Lack of any real sniper (the plasma sniper isn't a proper sniper. Its abysmal scope and long travel time makes it useless as a long range weapon. I also dont think the projectile can physically travel further than a few hundred meters before it fizzles out, maybe someone can verify the distance of the shot, but it doesn't seem to be far enough. (Its 3308 and this thing is less effective than a Mosin Nagant from the early 20th century, oof. If they do add proper long range weapons, they also need to add rangefinders/binoculars for spotting and also larger battlefields to accommodate for the larger distances (there's plenty of space on the billions of planets in the game). This makes sense from a gameplay standpoint. Odyssey has lots of wide-open spaces, and a hitscan sniper would be extremely overpowered, especially in the hands of NPCs.

- Customisation of the weapons is too limited. Needs larger variety of scopes, attachments that can be added/swapped (scrap the whole super-glued engineering attachments, who thought this was a good idea?)

- Variation of weapons is too small. Need more weapons of each type.

- No revive mechanic when most basic shooters have this. This is especially needed in Elite as death is usually quite punishing when you respawn far away from the conflict. I'd like this, but respawns happen very quickly anyway, so it's hardly necessary.

- Allow squad members the ability to respawn back at your ship and/or allow players the ability to construct temporary respawn points (like the Outpost/Garrison in HLL). These can of course be destroyed by enemy players/AI.

- No practical way for natural PvP to occur because of the distance between players in the game. (A way to concentrate players into a handful of ground conflict zones would maximise natural PvP activity. Maybe CG's could provide this.) Organic pvp has long been an issue in this game. It needs broad solutions for more than just on-foot content. When most 'fair' pvp is happening due to organized meetups, something's missing.

- Conflict zones are too basic and surface level. Its too "gamey". (Have larger battlefields with different "gamemodes" other than basic control points. Take a page out of HLL's book with large battlefields that requires proper tactics to manoeuvre. This allows for actual flanking and getting behind enemy lines which can be satisfying.) Played much Horizons, lately? All CZs are giant empty arenas with basically nothing inside. You're right, but I don't expect improvement.

- Ground AA is invincible as they magically regenerate about 2 mins after being destroyed. Unrealistic and unrewarding, literally no point in destroying them. This might be a bug however. They exist to prevent effortlessly nuking the CZ from the air. If they want to integrate ground and air content, it'll take a lot more effort.

- Handheld AA rocket launcher with guided missiles is needed. Most modern mil-sims have them. While nice in theory, the damage needed would be absurd and probably unrealistic.

- Add a prone position and crawling animation. Prone position decreases weapon sway and increases accuracy. Also bipod attachments for increased stability.

- Get rid of nametags over players heads (maybe unless being right in front of them or if they are in your squad) as it can give away your position.

- Have a "Hold breath" feature for decreased weapon sway.

- Add the dropship capabilities from Frontline Solutions as a module for your ship, allowing you to drop players into the battlefield. This would be nice, in general. A way to deploy your SRV while airborne would be nice, too.

- Add proximity voice comms. Currently no way to really communicate with random players you see. Emotes only go so far and standing in the battlefield typing will likely get you killed.

- Allow NPC crew to go on foot and fight with you. Probably not going to happen.

- Obviously performance needs to be improved across the board in CZ's and settlements in general. Nobody really likes to play FPS games at sub 60fps minimum unless you want a migraine.
 
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