Nav Beacon Discussion - How to make Beacons relevant and engaging!

[edgar]

I like the OP's idea.

I would alter it slightly though: maintain the current sequence of events, where you arrive from Hyperspace into Supercruise at the star, allowing for fuel scooping and rapid transit to onwards systems as we have now; but add a perimeter around the arrival star - only when you cross over this perimeter into the system proper are you then pulled down into the Nav Beacon instance (via a static interdiction device used only by authorities perhaps), in order to facilitate the things in the OP, whilst maintaining the benefits of the current system.

 

[Andovar]

I like the idea.
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever see it.

 

[Zeta Legion]

I like the OP's idea.

I would alter it slightly though: maintain the current sequence of events, where you arrive from Hyperspace into Supercruise at the star, allowing for fuel scooping and rapid transit to onwards systems as we have now; but add a perimeter around the arrival star - only when you cross over this perimeter into the system proper are you then pulled down into the Nav Beacon instance (via a static interdiction device used only by authorities perhaps), in order to facilitate the things in the OP, whilst maintaining the benefits of the current system.

That's an interesting point. Maybe add in the ability to shake the Nav Beacon interdiction to avoid the nav police at the cost of gaining a fine or even a bounty. You'd still be able to jump from system to system without leaving SC (unless of course, you crash into White Dwarf stars like I do) and could add interesting gameplay possibilities for smugglers and pirates too.

 

[shambles1980]

so i would jump from A to B. then have to go to sc to fuel scoop. avoid the npc cops, and pirates (in sc and at the beacon) then jump from B to C and do the same thing again??
all the time nave beacon campers are scanning me.
im all for making smuggling harder, but thats just making it impossible.

 

[KaizoMK]

I like the OP's idea.

I would alter it slightly though: maintain the current sequence of events, where you arrive from Hyperspace into Supercruise at the star, allowing for fuel scooping and rapid transit to onwards systems as we have now; but add a perimeter around the arrival star - only when you cross over this perimeter into the system proper are you then pulled down into the Nav Beacon instance (via a static interdiction device used only by authorities perhaps), in order to facilitate the things in the OP, whilst maintaining the benefits of the current system.

Excellent idea, actually. It doesn't have an impact on a trader's planet-by-planet routing, which probably would have been tedious, anyway.

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

I'm starting to feel sorry for everybody who is upset about the "depth" of this game and how everybody needs to meet everybody else and preferably shoot at them. I have been shooting up a storm at RES sites the last week or two in an A spec Vulture because I lost my Asp and had to get some credits together to re-build it. It's all very exciting shooting the hell out of pretty much anything that turns up, watching them explode in that satisfying way that they do and then heading to a station to hand in those lovely bounties.

But, today, I decided I had enough cash, bought my Asp and equipped it for long range exploration and headed out into the void. In my first hour, I discovered my first completely untouched system with an icy planet with a ring system around it and a high metal content world suitable for terraforming. I noticed, as I was zooming along that along with the beer in my hand, I had a smile on my face. I have taken photo's and started posting pictures from my journey in a blog and guess what, I found that I this has created a communication stream and little community around the blog of my journey. The ED galaxy is just stunning and there isn't another player or NPC in sight.

I recently ordered a Thrustmaster Warthog to hone my fighting skills yet further but I suddenly realised, I don't really need it any more.

I know this isn't for everyone and I hope all you dramatic type people are able to get what you want out of the game but although I am only 650 LY from SOL at the moment, the game has suddenly given me all the depth I could possibly hope for.

 

[KaizoMK]

I'm starting to feel sorry for everybody who is upset about the "depth" of this game and how everybody needs to meet everybody else and preferably shoot at them. I have been shooting up a storm at RES sites the last week or two in an A spec Vulture because I lost my Asp and had to get some credits together to re-build it. It's all very exciting shooting the hell out of pretty much anything that turns up, watching them explode in that satisfying way that they do and then heading to a station to hand in those lovely bounties.

But, today, I decided I had enough cash, bought my Asp and equipped it for long range exploration and headed out into the void. In my first hour, I discovered my first completely untouched system with an icy planet with a ring system around it and a high metal content world suitable for terraforming. I noticed, as I was zooming along that along with the beer in my hand, I had a smile on my face. I have taken photo's and started posting pictures from my journey in a blog and guess what, I found that I this has created a communication stream and little community around the blog of my journey. The ED galaxy is just stunning and there isn't another player or NPC in sight.

I recently ordered a Thrustmaster Warthog to hone my fighting skills yet further but I suddenly realised, I don't really need it any more.

I know this isn't for everyone and I hope all you dramatic type people are able to get what you want out of the game but although I am only 650 LY from SOL at the moment, the game has suddenly given me all the depth I could possibly hope for.

Cool, but that has little to do with what we're talking about. I'm glad you're enjoying the game, but we're talking about beacons.

Agreed, just imagine all the posts about "I can't jump into Sytem xyz because some players have it locked down and I have a mission there!"

Who cares? If you can't enter a system because there's no security at the beacon and you can't safely navigate, then you can't go there. This is the action-consequence gameplay that ED needs. There are plenty of other systems.

Don't forget - and yes, this does have to be properly implemented - dangerous systems should supply an incentive for being visited. That means nil-security systems should have an economy that will pay high prices for goods and missions would have a higher payout because it's functionally more difficult to do them. Not "kill seven anacondas and make 2mcr", but "go to this dangerous system which has been inaccessible to our allegiance and deliver [thing] to [station] for a fat reward." and maybe kill some guys or stealth in successfully or even flat out flee masslock. Meaningful context and fun choices. If the new player in his sidewinder can't go to a nil-security system, then he should go somewhere else.

so i would jump from A to B. then have to go to sc to fuel scoop. avoid the npc cops, and pirates (in sc and at the beacon) then jump from B to C and do the same thing again??
all the time nave beacon campers are scanning me.
im all for making smuggling harder, but thats just making it impossible.

This is an important problem, but I feel that a) edgar did address it with his suggestion of an "interdiction barrier", which will let you stay in SC as long as you're not entering the system, and b) this would make smuggling harder in a satisfying way....it would limit your setup as far as a smuggling ship goes, and you'd have to smuggle one or two extra times as you go.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

Sweet.

I think that Nav Beacons should force you to them after a hyperjump like you suggested, and you should land in supercruise when no nav beacon is present.

This is not due to the navigation ability of your ship, but rather that the system faction wants to track you, whether it be for security or for piracy.

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

I know you are but I was hoping to inspire someone to see if the game already had the depth and "immersion" that those who say things like "living breathing galaxy" are asking for.

 

[DrakeAurum]

I think they would change the game to much and the lore.

Think the better option be to integrate nav beacons into missions, so it act as a location to meet up with NPCs.

Beacons should also become like data access points are on the ground, so pilots can access data for specific missions or receive messages.

You should also be able to access the local Galnet.

ships could also be selling stuff at these navigation beacons.

From the dev side it much easier as well.

+Rep for the idea to integrate nav beacons into missions - I think that would work really well.

One thing I wondered about was maybe having nav beacons transmit current system astrogational data when you drop into them, which would make a lot more sense than having to manually scan all the planets in a populated system just to know their names.

 

[shambles1980]

This is an important problem, but I feel that a) edgar did address it with his suggestion of an "interdiction barrier", which will let you stay in SC as long as you're not entering the system, and b) this would make smuggling harder in a satisfying way....it would limit your setup as far as a smuggling ship goes, and you'd have to smuggle one or two extra times as you go.

there is no way you could avoid the npc and or human scans once you droped in to the nav beacon as they would not be behind you, and there is no way to tell which 1 is actually scanning you. so you cant boost away fom them or attack them to break the scan.

You would faill the fail on scan missions 100% of the time if you had to drop in to every nav beacon on a 30 jump route. then you also have the ones that dont fail on scan where you take 100t+ of something 400ly in 40 mins or so.
These are possible now but if this idea was introduced "drop in, or fight interdiction at every jump" then you would always run out of time.

 

[KaizoMK]

I know you are but I was hoping to inspire someone to see if the game already had the depth and "immersion" that those who say things like "living breathing galaxy" are asking for.

Yea it has some immersion and depth. It could use more though.

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there is no way you could avoid the npc and or human scans once you droped in to the nav beacon as they would not be behind you, and there is no way to tell which 1 is actually scanning you. so you cant boost away fom them or attack them to break the scan.

You would faill the fail on scan missions 100% of the time if you had to drop in to every nav beacon on a 30 jump route. then you also have the ones that dont fail on scan where you take 100t+ of something 400ly in 40 mins or so.
These are possible now but if this idea was introduced "drop in, or fight interdiction at every jump" then you would always run out of time.

Again, Edgar suggested that you only have to enter a beacon on the system you actually want to visit and how to implement that.

Also, I did forget about the "fail on scan" stipulation. But upon entering a beacon, you are going to have to slip through security. You could do it fast, or you could utilize silent running. Maybe the beacon attempts to pull you out of supercruise and you decide whether to accept or not, and if you decline you face a bounty and are pursued by cops in supercruise. That would allow you the ability to bypass scans in favor of a smaller bounty.

 

[Spdrmn7]

Initially, I disagreed, but I actually really like this idea. Couple this with allowing players to become system authority and it could nake for interesting gameplay.

 

[shambles1980]

if silent running or chaff actually stopped an npc scan then sure.
but as of now all you can do to stop a npc scan is boost away from it or shoot it.

 

[Zeta Legion]

I know you are but I was hoping to inspire someone to see if the game already had the depth and "immersion" that those who say things like "living breathing galaxy" are asking for.

The game actually lacks 'depth'. What it has in spades is 'scope', something that is easy to get lost in while exploring. The exploration mechanics are extremely simple; honk your scanner at the star, then point your ship at each object you want a deep scan of, flying towards the further objects to get in range. What makes exploration 'fun', at least for me, isn't the depth of the mechanics, but the scope of the galaxy and some of the fantastic views to be had out there. It's like comparing Elder Scrolls to Baldur's Gate. Elder Scrolls games primarily lean on the scope of the world to keep the player immersed, while Baldur's Gate leans on depth of gameplay and story. Two fundamentally different methods both designed to get the player invested in the game.

More on topic, we are discussing Nav beacons because frankly they don't serve any meaningful purpose for gameplay or really world-building for that matter. Why set up a 'nav beacon' when such a device is obviously not required to navigate to a given system, and most of the time you don't drop anywhere near the thing in SC when you arrive at a system. Why do the NPC ships head to nav beacons when they should just stay in SC and jump to their destination out of system or simply fly towards their target in-system?

It's not about forcing combat or even confrontation, it's about giving purpose to nav beacons and adding a more tactile way of seeing the effects of a systems' current state instead of it just being a label under a tab buried in menus or spawning some pointless 'checkpoints' that, like nav beacons, cannot possibly serve their intended purpose as they exist now simply by virtue of the current SC mechanics. It's about both immersion, while adding depth to gameplay and scope to the world.

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Yea it has some immersion and depth. It could use more though.

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Again, Edgar suggested that you only have to enter a beacon on the system you actually want to visit and how to implement that.

Also, I did forget about the "fail on scan" stipulation. But upon entering a beacon, you are going to have to slip through security. You could do it fast, or you could utilize silent running. Maybe the beacon attempts to pull you out of supercruise and you decide whether to accept or not, and if you decline you face a bounty and are pursued by cops in supercruise. That would allow you the ability to bypass scans in favor of a smaller bounty.

You may want to add this stuff to the OP. Can't expect everyone to read the whole thread even though it is relatively small.

 

[askavir]

So, another FSD countdown and 2 extra "loading screens" (droping into beacon + reengaging SC) every time one enters a system?... Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[DragoonKnight]

I don't think we need any mechanics that make preying upon other players any easier.

In the current game, it would be trivial to completely lock down a system (assuming your instancing is working in your favor). the few police ships that show up are no threat to a wing of four combat ships, even in a high security system (as if that means anything)

Then just beef up security. A high security system could easily have 2 wings of high end A-rated ships like Conda, FDL, FAS, Clipper, FGS, Vulture, etc. protecting their beacons with the ability to summon more reinforcements. Want to blockade a high sec system? Better bring along plenty of friends and firepower because the system defense forces are going to come at you with overwhelming force after a few calls for reinforcements. Have fun pirating that T9 when you have an Anaconda and its escorts targeting you.

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So, another FSD countdown and 2 extra "loading screens" (droping into beacon + reengaging SC) every time one enters a system?... Thanks, but no thanks.

Just one (reengaging SC). The dropping into a beacon can be integrated into the fsd jump animation. Would not affect multi-jump trips since you have to engage your FSD for every jump anyway.

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

The game actually lacks 'depth'. What it has in spades is 'scope', something that is easy to get lost in while exploring. The exploration mechanics are extremely simple; honk your scanner at the star, then point your ship at each object you want a deep scan of, flying towards the further objects to get in range. What makes exploration 'fun', at least for me, isn't the depth of the mechanics, but the scope of the galaxy and some of the fantastic views to be had out there. It's like comparing Elder Scrolls to Baldur's Gate. Elder Scrolls games primarily lean on the scope of the world to keep the player immersed, while Baldur's Gate leans on depth of gameplay and story. Two fundamentally different methods both designed to get the player invested in the game.

More on topic, we are discussing Nav beacons because frankly they don't serve any meaningful purpose for gameplay or really world-building for that matter. Why set up a 'nav beacon' when such a device is obviously not required to navigate to a given system, and most of the time you don't drop anywhere near the thing in SC when you arrive at a system. Why do the NPC ships head to nav beacons when they should just stay in SC and jump to their destination out of system or simply fly towards their target in-system?

It's not about forcing combat or even confrontation, it's about giving purpose to nav beacons and adding a more tactile way of seeing the effects of a systems' current state instead of it just being a label under a tab buried in menus or spawning some pointless 'checkpoints' that, like nav beacons, cannot possibly serve their intended purpose as they exist now simply by virtue of the current SC mechanics. It's about both immersion, while adding depth to gameplay and scope to the world.

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You may want to add this stuff to the OP. Can't expect everyone to read the whole thread even though it is relatively small.

Well I can agree with this to be honest. The NAV beacons don't make a great deal of sense and in Oolite, you do actually arrive at the equivalent of a NAV beacon. On the other hand, why does anybody really care that there is a thing called a NAV beacon and for some reason lots of ships go there. I completely ignore them although in my early days I do remember my first and rather pleasant PvP encounter at one when I met another commander who did a barrel role in front of me and flashed his lights. I didn't know we had lights at the time

But seriously, there are far more pressing things to start worrying about.

 

[KaizoMK]

UPDATE: Added this guy's idea to the OP. This addresses many concerns in regards to added jump time, multi-jump routes, exploration, and fuel scooping.

I like the OP's idea.

I would alter it slightly though: maintain the current sequence of events, where you arrive from Hyperspace into Supercruise at the star, allowing for fuel scooping and rapid transit to onwards systems as we have now; but add a perimeter around the arrival star - only when you cross over this perimeter into the system proper are you then pulled down into the Nav Beacon instance (via a static interdiction device used only by authorities perhaps), in order to facilitate the things in the OP, whilst maintaining the benefits of the current system.

 

[Fire70]

While I am all for creating some depth and immersion in this game I'm not sure making players drop out of super cruise is the answer.. All it is going to do is slow down players and given it is tedious enough going from normal to super cruise it will just make it worse.

Really Nav Beacons are fine now and the problem is why are there ships (NPC) around them??? There is currently no reason for any ship to be there (other than another place to shoot at NPC's). There really shouldn't be anything there.

What would be better is if every ship came out near the Nav Beacon but stayed in super cruise..