Navigation Computer needed ?

[Brian of Ardagh]

Can we stop with this ridiculous argument that's only suitable for the playground. Please point to anyone, anywhere advocating the game plays itself. Nobody has even remotely said that it should so why you're the only one bringing it up is beyond us all. Persoanlly, I think you're trolling and as such, I've reported your post.

Other posters have stated that they will play other games or watch Netflix/Hulu on another screen while in SC or while jumping from system to system. An AP would make it even easier to travel with only limited attention to the game. That's where the general argument comes from; I don't know if it's a fallacy or not.

There's an easy fix for people like you - simply don't buy one. Do you have an issue with that?

Personally, it wouldn't bother me much if someone uses an AP to travel while watching Netflix or making dinner. There are areas where the AP would make certain activities trivial, like the Hutton mug trip. The point of that activity is getting there, even if it is boring to some.

Actually it's probably not the right game for you. The dullness of space travel is a leaving point for ED, not a selling point. Therefore less sales and less development. You should also look up "Slippery Slope Argument".

The slippery slope argument is not always a fallacy although some seem to think it is. The dullness of space travel is not a statement of fact, it's an opinion. I'm fine with things as they are when it comes to space travel but that's just my opinion and is valid for me and others as your opinion is valid for you and some others.

There is a slippery slope argument to be made and it is predicated on just what you have said: "The dullness of space travel is a leaving point for ED, not a selling point. Therefore less sales and less development." FD could add a lot of features to this game that would eliminate the "dullness" for some players but would fundamentally alter the game for other players. FD could add jumpgates all over the bubble and even a jumpgate from the bubble to Jaques. FD could add to ability to jump directly to any location in a system. They could increase the speed of SC and the acceleration/deceleration so that going from station to station would be much quicker. Things like these, and more, could make some players very happy but much of it would eliminate what ED is currently as a game. An AP added to the game isn't on the slippery slope but just on the precipice, once AP is added I'm sure there will be more calls for things like greatly increased jump distances or even jumpgates. This is where we might see the slippery slope. I personally doubt that adding the AP will make space travel less dull, it might just make it easier to ignore the space travel.

Again, let me reiterate, I'm not against AP in principle, it, like the DC, doesn't change my world or how I play the game, not that I would trust either one. But it is up to FD to decide the character of the game going forward. It's unlikely that the game can be everything to all players; today space travel and the way the SC and hyperspace allows you to travel is fundamental to how ED is played. If FD decides that they can make more sales and cash for development by changing the game to accommodate one "kind" of player they may lose other "kinds" of players. Ultimately all we can do as players is suggest what we would or would not like to see added to the game.

 

[MAUXUS]

FD could add a lot of features to this game that would eliminate the "dullness" for some players but would fundamentally alter the game for other players. FD could add jumpgates all over the bubble and even a jumpgate from the bubble to Jaques. FD could add to ability to jump directly to any location in a system. They could increase the speed of SC and the acceleration/deceleration so that going from station to station would be much quicker. Things like these, and more, could make some players very happy but much of it would eliminate what ED is currently as a game. An AP added to the game isn't on the slippery slope but just on the precipice, once AP is added I'm sure there will be more calls for things like greatly increased jump distances or even jumpgates. This is where we might see the slippery slope. I personally doubt that adding the AP will make space travel less dull, it might just make it easier to ignore the space travel.

I don't think this is a fair statement though. One could've made that same argument for any of the other improvements/features that were not initially included with ED, and that have been added later on. And it wouldn't have been fair not to allow something because then something else would've been requested. If we reason that way, then ED would have never evolved to the game that it is today. We should take things one at the time and in this case focus on the AP, which is what is being requested with this post. Whatever comes later will be dealt with at its own time.

Again, let me reiterate, I'm not against AP in principle, it, like the DC, doesn't change my world or how I play the game, not that I would trust either one. But it is up to FD to decide the character of the game going forward. It's unlikely that the game can be everything to all players; today space travel and the way the SC and hyperspace allows you to travel is fundamental to how ED is played. If FD decides that they can make more sales and cash for development by changing the game to accommodate one "kind" of player they may lose other "kinds" of players. Ultimately all we can do as players is suggest what we would or would not like to see added to the game.

AP would be a module, so players who don't want to equip one, don't have to, which I think is in tune with what ED has always been: to each its own.

 

[Itaki]

I wonder if there was a bobblehead pro/con thread?

CMDR 1: "We need bobble heads.."

CMDR 2: "Noooooo! Bobbleheads will destroy how I play the game."

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

I don't think this is a fair statement though. One could've made that same argument for any of the other improvements/features that were not initially included with ED, and that have been added later on. And it wouldn't have been fair not to allow something because then something else would've been requested. If we reason that way, then ED would have never evolved to the game that it is today. We should take things one at the time and in this case focus on the AP, which is what is being requested with this post. Whatever comes later will be dealt with at its own time.

See, I can't take it one item at a time if my focus is on the game's development direction. If FD came out and stated they were going to focus on making the game only a combat (insert any other element) oriented game and would ignore and let languish other game elements then we would all know the developer's intents. Until that time I'm going to focus on additions that I feel, IMO, impact the game's direction.

AP would be a module, so players who don't want to equip one, don't have to, which I think is in tune with what ED has always been: to each its own.

To each his own only applies to the game as designed and what role(s) you want to play. If FD adds an AP module you are free to use it as I am free to not use it. In the meantime we are both free to hold differing opinions on whether or not an AP or any other feature is added, even if we don't like the other's reasoning.

 

[MAUXUS]

See, I can't take it one item at a time if my focus is on the game's development direction. If FD came out and stated they were going to focus on making the game only a combat (insert any other element) oriented game and would ignore and let languish other game elements then we would all know the developer's intents. Until that time I'm going to focus on additions that I feel, IMO, impact the game's direction.

Right, but here we are discussing the AP, which is a single feature. We are not having a general discussion of where the game is headed. And one single feature is not likely to tilt the game in one direction or another, especially considering that you would have a choice to use it or not. Your previous statement is just another way of saying "No AP because then why don't we have ED come up with (insert feature here) and (insert another feature here) and also making tea and deliver it to us", derailing the discussion.

To each his own only applies to the game as designed and what role(s) you want to play. If FD adds an AP module you are free to use it as I am free to not use it. In the meantime we are both free to hold differing opinions on whether or not an AP or any other feature is added, even if we don't like the other's reasoning.

Yes, you fit the modules you want to play the way you want. I am honestly not sure what your opinion is. I mean, I understand that you initially said you don't want AP, then changed to "it doesn't bother me but I don't think we should have it", but you never really laid out a set of valid reasons why we should not to have AP. Just a lot of reasons that try to derail the discussion. And/or the reasons you came up with have already been addressed. I am sure everyone is happy to discuss further though, if you have any new concerns that have not already been addressed earlier.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Right, but here we are discussing the AP, which is a single feature. We are not having a general discussion of where the game is headed. And one single feature is not likely to tilt the game in one direction or another, especially considering that you would have a choice to use it or not. Your previous statement is just another way of saying "No AP because then why don't we have ED come up with (insert feature here) and (insert another feature here) and also making tea and deliver it to us", derailing the discussion.

You are trying to make it sound as if discussing the AP must remain only on that feature and nothing that can tangentially impact it. That's really just a method of stifling discussion in favor of one view point. If my concerns over adding AP to the game impact the game, even if only in my view or delusions, it is still on-topic. You may believe that this one feature will not alter the direction of the overall game but I am free to differ with you and discuss in that direction as it still relates to my views on adding the AP. If you disagree with my thinking or discussion style you are, of course, free to not reply.

Yes, you fit the modules you want to play the way you want. I am honestly not sure what your opinion is. I mean, I understand that you initially said you don't want AP, then changed to "it doesn't bother me but I don't think we should have it", but you never really laid out a set of valid reasons why we should not to have AP. Just a lot of reasons that try to derail the discussion. And/or the reasons you came up with have already been addressed. I am sure everyone is happy to discuss further though, if you have any new concerns that have not already been addressed earlier.

I was saying that "play the way you want" refers to using the features that are present in the game today. "Play the way you want" is not a catch all to add features to the game by saying "well, you don't have to use them"

I didn't originally want AP as initially described, a dock to dock cross system solution. I'm less concerned about a system that allows the player to plot a course, jump into hyperspace and the AP takes over until you reach your destination system. You would still need to SC from the drop out point to whatever station you are going. I think the system shouldn't be 100% perfect though, it should occasionally make mistakes, malfunction, misjump, etc.; my reasoning for that is I'm sure there will be players plotting 1000 ly courses and walking away to come back to play. That's not play the way you want, that's not playing at all in a game where space travel is the main feature. I would rather that any AP be limited to SC mode, as described in FFE apparently, but that's not what the OP wanted so that would be for another discussion.

I've said enough on this matter so I won't reply again; I don't have any new concerns, just trying to clarify my position. I don't think I've done too much clarifying here as this exchange with you has been more a discussion about discussions than the AP itself. I think it's a moot discussion though as I highly doubt FD will add autopilot any sooner than jumpgates.

 

[Kellan Fell]

No

I wonder if there was a bobblehead pro/con thread?

CMDR 1: "We need bobble heads.."

CMDR 2: "Noooooo! Bobbleheads will destroy how I play the game."

Nobody asked about bobbleheads, they've been there forever...

 

[SatansMittens]

Gee, thanks for that...
I did know what I was getting into as I paid £200 to get into it at Premium Beta, so I've been here almost from the start, so please don't paint me with the "instant gratification" brush. I've got over 10 weeks of ingame time logged and less that 350 million in the bank, so I think you can take it as a given that instant gratification is the furthest thing from what I play the game for, and to be honest I find that dismissal frankly offensive. Don't tell me to adapt to a situation that I've been playing for 4 years now on both PC and Mac.

If you go back to Elite 84, you could only plot a single jup at a time, but all "in system" flight was covered under the "stardreamer" type mechanic, where you would perform in-system jumps (holding down the J key) to get from entry point to station and the game would stop you jumping if you encountered an enemy. In the later follow-ups on the Amiga and the PC you had a limited Navigation computer which would plot routes for you and fly them, again reverting back to player control if there was an encounter. [As an aside there was an exploit with the Nav computer in FFE where you could lock it onto your target and use it o keep you facing the enemy in combat.]

So having now established my credentials as a long time fan of the series, and player of the game in it's current form, let me go on to say that I've been "adapting" to the wash/rinse/repeat nature of long distance hauling since before the official launch of the game. That doesn't mean I have to like it, and it certainly doesn't mean that it classes as "flying the ship". I don't press 'J' any more, now I just speak to Astra using voice attack, but saying "Engage Jump" every 20 seconds for half an hour still doen't class as flying the ship. Having a Navigation Computer available (no one is saying you have to use it) to basically handle the mindless nature of these jumps is not detracting from game play.

No-one is suggesting that these things handle interdictions, hell they wouldn't even scoop fuel. Most of the "don't dumb it down" crowd are probably playing an alternate game or watching a movie at the same time as the "wash/rinse/repeat", so don't even have a valid gameplay argument anyway! And, furthermore, I was one of the voters for the complex transfers, and nowehere do I suggest that the autopilot is instant. It would still fly the ship, the ship would still perform the jumps, all it would remove is the need to keep pressing 'J'. You could read your book, watch your movie or whatever the hell it is you do whilst on a long haule anyway just like you currently do. Personally I use a Rift, so I actually watch through the process of long distance travel without being able to watch something else on a second monitor...

I would suggest taking a breath before you leap down someone's throat the next time, and "go play something else" is not a cogent argument, especially not to an Alpha or Beta player.

I can't possibly rep you enough for this very well put and logical statement.

 

[SatansMittens]

You are trying to make it sound as if discussing the AP must remain only on that feature and nothing that can tangentially impact it. That's really just a method of stifling discussion in favor of one view point. If my concerns over adding AP to the game impact the game, even if only in my view or delusions, it is still on-topic. You may believe that this one feature will not alter the direction of the overall game but I am free to differ with you and discuss in that direction as it still relates to my views on adding the AP. If you disagree with my thinking or discussion style you are, of course, free to not reply.



I was saying that "play the way you want" refers to using the features that are present in the game today. "Play the way you want" is not a catch all to add features to the game by saying "well, you don't have to use them"

I didn't originally want AP as initially described, a dock to dock cross system solution. I'm less concerned about a system that allows the player to plot a course, jump into hyperspace and the AP takes over until you reach your destination system. You would still need to SC from the drop out point to whatever station you are going. I think the system shouldn't be 100% perfect though, it should occasionally make mistakes, malfunction, misjump, etc.; my reasoning for that is I'm sure there will be players plotting 1000 ly courses and walking away to come back to play. That's not play the way you want, that's not playing at all in a game where space travel is the main feature. I would rather that any AP be limited to SC mode, as described in FFE apparently, but that's not what the OP wanted so that would be for another discussion.

I've said enough on this matter so I won't reply again; I don't have any new concerns, just trying to clarify my position. I don't think I've done too much clarifying here as this exchange with you has been more a discussion about discussions than the AP itself. I think it's a moot discussion though as I highly doubt FD will add autopilot any sooner than jumpgates.

I get what he's saying and divergence from the topic in the thread title has gotten threads closed by moderators. I have read many of your responses and you say you are not against the proposal of an autopilot outright. You have stated your reasons and at some point they do kinda diverge from the main topic of the thread. So simply put..... stay on topic. If you have other topics that you'd like to discuss do it in threads that concern thise topics or start your own thread. I'm sure people will be happy to converse with you about whatvever you want.

 

[Jex =TE=]

The idea is, that if you automate the travel in E|D you might as well allow for insta-jumps and just loose Hyper-jumps all together. Taking away the need to jump is tantamount to teleporting. That's how I read that comment.

As to the idea that earlier Elite's had a Nav. Computer is because they were single player games, and what other Commanders did meant nothing. This version is based on a model of the entire Milky Way Galaxy, the size and effort to get around was built in on purpose. The time and effort to get around the galaxy is intended to keep it all in scale. Making things easier, is not always better for game play.

No, I'll stop you half way through that first sentence as that is absolute nonsense. How on earth you "read" that I simply have no idea but it's patent nonsense to suggest that adding an AP would therefore allow insta-jumps. All logic is absent here, I'm really trying to work out how anyone could come to such a conclusion.

Next part, once again your logic fails as how can you say travelling is gameplay? Another fail for you is that what other commanders do is not your concern. The fact that you are so concerned whether or not that are adjusting the course of their ship manually or an AP is doing it I don't know what to say.

This is obviously such a bad thing in your eyes not only are you and your ilk voicing your opinion on it but actively voting against it. Is this reality I'm seeing here? You're actually voting against having a feature that doesn't affect you in the slightest and all it does is keep your ship flying straight and presses J for you and you're actually against that??

I find that to be massively petty I'm afraid. I don't know how you rationalise this a kind of thinking or think it's acceptable tbh.

 

[Jex =TE=]

The slippery slope argument is not always a fallacy although some seem to think it is. The dullness of space travel is not a statement of fact, it's an opinion. I'

No, it's a statement of fact that's been posted multiple times on the thread here concerning FE2 and how it's a known phenomena.

Space travel in ED is fundamentally flawed and has been since it was made. It's so trivial you could make a rock solid case for removing it all together because it's so inane and this is because it's so simple. There is literally nothing to do but adjust your course every 30 seconds, that's it. Fundamentally unchallenging and so simple a 3 year old could do it (or a cat as we've found out). When you have nothing to do and your sat there watching TV you have, by the very definition of the term, stopped playing the game which means in other words, there is literally no game play there.

Some of us would like to see such an awful part of the game automated and here's another point, people leave the game because of it. If it's so good, let's change all the adverts to show all the exciting "space travel" because let's face it, if ED was advertised how it actually plays nobody would buy it.

 

[lysan]

The nays got no argument, they say it will play the game for you, that is ridiculous, do the DC play the game for you?
Do the route planner play the game for you?

A autopilot is a basic piece of equipment installed in all modern airplanes, cars, boats and remote controlled toys.
Its is there to take away the repetitive tasks.

People who watch movies during travel will do that no matter what, I don't I actually enjoy the space travels however I do not enjoy performing a task that require less brain activity than sleeping.

I got thousands of hours in flight sims and REAL airplanes, I use the autopilot all the time.

It will not make coffee, it will not encounter a deep philosophical discussion in quatermecanics, I can have that "conversation" with Orion it will not fight for you, it will not give you a foot massage nor will it trade or anything else BUT

Fly from point A to B.

Like the discussion regarding ship transfer, where you could exploit it, you can't exploit a AP, if you do something else and not present watching the you ship you will very quickly see the rebuy screen.

There are no argument other than i don't want it, and either should you.

However this can be solved by the players, if FD don't deliver someone will, and we will just use that, I will respect FD, however if the game keeps hanging on to a task that is soooo boring I will find a way to remove that boring task from my gameplay, no expenses spared.

 

[Jex =TE=]

The nays got no argument, they say it will play the game for you, that is ridiculous, do the DC play the game for you?
Do the route planner play the game for you?

A autopilot is a basic piece of equipment installed in all modern airplanes, cars, boats and remote controlled toys.
Its is there to take away the repetitive tasks.

People who watch movies during travel will do that no matter what, I don't I actually enjoy the space travels however I do not enjoy performing a task that require less brain activity than sleeping.

I got thousands of hours in flight sims and REAL airplanes, I use the autopilot all the time.

It will not make coffee, it will not encounter a deep philosophical discussion in quatermecanics, I can have that "conversation" with Orion it will not fight for you, it will not give you a foot massage nor will it trade or anything else BUT

Fly from point A to B.

Like the discussion regarding ship transfer, where you could exploit it, you can't exploit a AP, if you do something else and not present watching the you ship you will very quickly see the rebuy screen.

There are no argument other than i don't want it, and either should you.

However this can be solved by the players, if FD don't deliver someone will, and we will just use that, I will respect FD, however if the game keeps hanging on to a task that is soooo boring I will find a way to remove that boring task from my gameplay, no expenses spared.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/09/0902b9f1c1e9475cc9e4ec4e7e1b77ebdcdcbe83157ee8a14031cc3d456423fe.jpg

I'll grab the AP that's already available and use that. I wonder what the nay sayers will say to that!

 

[lysan]

I'll grab the AP that's already available and use that. I wonder what the nay sayers will say to that!

I'm holding back, as I would like to see what FD got up their sleeve. A lot of stuff in the pipe from now and until season 2 is over, so lets see.

 

[Zambrick]

The nays got no argument, they say it will play the game for you, that is ridiculous, do the DC play the game for you?
Do the route planner play the game for you?

A autopilot is a basic piece of equipment installed in all modern airplanes, cars, boats and remote controlled toys.
Its is there to take away the repetitive tasks.

People who watch movies during travel will do that no matter what, I don't I actually enjoy the space travels however I do not enjoy performing a task that require less brain activity than sleeping.

I got thousands of hours in flight sims and REAL airplanes, I use the autopilot all the time.

It will not make coffee, it will not encounter a deep philosophical discussion in quatermecanics, I can have that "conversation" with Orion it will not fight for you, it will not give you a foot massage nor will it trade or anything else BUT

Fly from point A to B.

Like the discussion regarding ship transfer, where you could exploit it, you can't exploit a AP, if you do something else and not present watching the you ship you will very quickly see the rebuy screen.

There are no argument other than i don't want it, and either should you.

However this can be solved by the players, if FD don't deliver someone will, and we will just use that, I will respect FD, however if the game keeps hanging on to a task that is soooo boring I will find a way to remove that boring task from my gameplay, no expenses spared.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/09/0902b9f1c1e9475cc9e4ec4e7e1b77ebdcdcbe83157ee8a14031cc3d456423fe.jpg

There is an AP that already exist and was created by a third party. I am sure more will pop up in the future as well. I would just like to have a AP in the game with native support than an external App.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

With Multi-crew on its way, the possibility of a Co-Pilot may make this moot, if the Co-Pilot can fly the ship.
If not, this should certainly be explored as an option.

 

[Jex =TE=]

With Multi-crew on its way, the possibility of a Co-Pilot may make this moot, if the Co-Pilot can fly the ship.
If not, this should certainly be explored as an option.

Not in my viper unless she's sat on my lap!

Actually...that might work.....*strokes...........................chin*

 

[IndigoWyrd]

No

Nobody asked about bobbleheads, they've been there forever...

I asked about them once... seems some people love 'em, which I kind of knew to begin with, because the stupid things sell like mad.
I just don't "get it", I don't see the appeal, and think they're stupid, but to each their own.

Now, if they had one of those dancing Hawaiian girls...

I would definitely have one.

 

[Gavin Burke]

So I'm thinking that by the year 3302 we should have the option to upgrade to an Advanced Navigation Computer that would allow us to plug in a route and it would fly/navigate the entire route from Launch to Docking.
Nav Computer that can do multiple jumps, as soon as you arrive it points ship away from star used to navigate and aims towards next destination. No hands, launch to land. Make the Grind better.

So currently you lock a system, press Y (on xbox anyways) then wait 15-20 seconds and you're there - is that not enough autopilot already?!?