New Exploration Mechanics: What I really want to know

[cheesenbiscuits]

The question is will we lose the ability to at a glance determine whether a system potentially has interesting objects,if we can’t it’s going to feel a bit too random and we’re in danger of invoking the needle in a haystack game mechanic that the poi update is solving.
A possible solution to the issue that may or may not exist is to get a list of elements detected and their relative values.

 

[Ziljan]

I heard a lot of explorers wanting to keep the some of the info from the honk/system map. Don't think I saw people arguing to keep the point at a thing for 30 seconds mechanism.

I've seen at least 6 die hard hold outs in the main thread, and a couple more in Discord. And honestly, they don't seem to be thinking it through all the way. I think they are just angry and not thinking clearly, so I wanted to help them see that they can't have both the old scan system and new probe system without likely doubling the time it takes to scan a system.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I've seen at least 6 die hard hold outs in the main thread, and a couple more in Discord. And honestly, they don't seem to be thinking it through all the way. I think they are just angry and not thinking clearly, so I wanted to help them see that they can't have both the old scan system and new probe system without likely doubling the time it takes to scan a system.

After thinking long and hard about it, is the reasoning that instead of lounging around the star, to get the same result as scanning before did, you get to fly your ship all over the system? That's the only one I can come up with.

On the other hand, the new mechanism also has a distance factor into it, so depending on how it's implemented, traveling towards objects will still help resolve the electromagnetic signatures easier I think.

But, then you're traveling while being in a detached screen. Would be lovely if the screens opened up on the right hand side along with the navigation panel to keep the sense of being in the cockpit, but the downside there of course is how much info you can cram in a smaller screen.

Swings and roundabouts

 

[gooddoc]

Well I'm keeping an open mind on how it will effect MY way of exploration, until I start testing it in Beta.

It may well quicken how I decide if a system is 'worth my time' investigating further OR it may well slow it down.

It then also depends on how much of this POI is REALLY worth investigating. I'll be at bit miffed if I'm seeing these POI signatures in EVERY system & they just turn out to be burnt out SRV's or cargo being guarded by skimmers.

The new system would be a wasted exercise without PROPER content to go out & find!

 

[Ziljan]

After thinking long and hard about it, is the reasoning that instead of lounging around the star, to get the same result as scanning before did, you get to fly your ship all over the system? That's the only one I can come up with.

On the other hand, the new mechanism also has a distance factor into it, so depending on how it's implemented, traveling towards objects will still help resolve the electromagnetic signatures easier I think.

But, then you're traveling while being in a detached screen. Would be lovely if the screens opened up on the right hand side along with the navigation panel to keep the sense of being in the cockpit, but the downside there of course is how much info you can cram in a smaller screen.

Swings and roundabouts

For some people it's the "get to fly around the system" part, which lets be honest is never off the table under any game play mechanic. For the other folks they claim it's about "time" but clearly it isn't time because otherwise they would embrace the new system, or reject probing altogether. There is something else going on here, and I am not sure that it's 100% logical.

It's unknown whether range, or manual pointed direction of the scanner (assuming that's allowed?), or even zoom (yes that was also one of the sliders on the screenshot) will make any difference in the strength or duration of a scan (I certainly hope it does). The only thing we know so far that will clarify scans is using the distance focus filter to show only energy signals at that range.

Afaik, there doesn't seem to be a flying mechanic involved with the discovery scanner screen. They did say that multicrew pilots will be able to use the scanner while you fly, and that both pilot and crew will be able to use the scanner screen at the same time.

I agree 100% that it would be better if the whole interface was just an alternate GUI or menu in the cockpit. I would take the price of any inconvenience, crash hazard, or wonky interface in order to have it moved to the cockpit, or at least optionally usable in via a cockpit menu/hologram. I would frankly love it if all of the dislocated menu screens were brought into the cockpit. Except maybe the galmap... that one is crazy enough, and would require its own stellar cartographics room on the ship... maybe with spacelegs?

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Frontier obviously created the new scan mechanic as a TIME SAVER.

How do we know this?

Think about it. The current time sinks for exploration are as follows:

1) travel to object
2) scan object

Under the proposed system we have:

1) scan object
2) lob probes at object

…

From what I've read and how I understand it the new system is:
drop into system
stay stationary to scan (with the discovery scanner) signal sources - that will include planets, asteroid belts, stations, USS.
If an object is scanned/identified with the discovery scanner all information that currently require the discovery scanner and detailed surface scanner is revealed for this object.
At this point the player can decide if an object is worth doing surface mapping using the new "shoot at it with ammo" detailed surface scanner.

1) scan object

2) fly to object
3) use probes to map object

The difference between new and old system is, that in the new system all the data we can currently get from an object is collected in one step.
Getting a basic system map isn't possible - in the new system it is all or nothing.

In the old system the player can decide if a detailed surface scan is worth it or if a basic overview of the system is enough.
This increases the time in the new system as a quick overlook of the system isn't possible anymore. The new system (probably) reduces the time needed to do a (current) full scan of a system as it removes the need to fly to the various objects.
The gameplay with probes is an addition to the current gameplay. It could be added to the current gameplay without any change to the new probe gameplay.

A compromise could use the old and new gameplay mechanics and combine them.
A honk shows the basic system map like it currently does.
The new signal source scanning function of the discovery scanner then collects the detailed surface data and reveals USSs and other signal sources.
The player than can decide if a surface mapping is worth doing.


Sidenote:
I think the new discovery scanner could be implemented as a HUD overlay - like the yellow and blue lines around objects. This would prevent the player to be "blind" in SC, allow the player to fly around and scanning object and maybe make scanning easier or faster if closer to the object (more involved gameplay).
I'm not sure how the new scanner interface will be implemented - maybe it is a HUD overlay and not like the current system map.

 

[Ziljan]

From what I've read and how I understand it the new system is:
drop into system
stay stationary to scan (with the discovery scanner) signal sources - that will include planets, asteroid belts, stations, USS.
If an object is scanned/identified with the discovery scanner all information that currently require the discovery scanner and detailed surface scanner is revealed for this object.
At this point the player can decide if an object is worth doing surface mapping using the new "shoot at it with ammo" detailed surface scanner.

1) scan object

2) fly to object
3) use probes to map object

The difference between new and old system is, that in the new system all the data we can currently get from an object is collected in one step.
Getting a basic system map isn't possible - in the new system it is all or nothing.

In the old system the player can decide if a detailed surface scan is worth it or if a basic overview of the system is enough.
This increases the time in the new system as a quick overlook of the system isn't possible anymore. The new system (probably) reduces the time needed to do a (current) full scan of a system as it removes the need to fly to the various objects.
The gameplay with probes is an addition to the current gameplay. It could be added to the current gameplay without any change to the new probe gameplay.

A compromise could use the old and new gameplay mechanics and combine them.
A honk shows the basic system map like it currently does.
The new signal source scanning function of the discovery scanner then collects the detailed surface data and reveals USSs and other signal sources.
The player than can decide if a surface mapping is worth doing.


Sidenote:
I think the new discovery scanner could be implemented as a HUD overlay - like the yellow and blue lines around objects. This would prevent the player to be "blind" in SC, allow the player to fly around and scanning object and maybe make scanning easier or faster if closer to the object (more involved gameplay).
I'm not sure how the new scanner interface will be implemented - maybe it is a HUD overlay and not like the current system map.

Has it been verified that we need to fly to planets to launch probes? Afaik we haven't seen the prob launching interface. For all we know, that's what the zoomed in surface view is for: aiming probes. This does raise questions about the speed of probes.

Tbh, there are very few ways in which the old system map reveal and the new active filters could be reconciled. Knowing anything about all about the bodies (except the basic layout with no distances or surface details) would make the active filters included in the new mechanic completely pointless.

Glad that you agree about the new mechanic being better in the actual cockpit HUD. Seems there is general agreement about that, but no idea if it's even feasible.

 

[Dommarraa]

Things will be different. Otherwise, they would be the same.

 

[disorganise]

OP - you stated interest in "chaotic orbits, fast orbits, close orbits," - you won't be able to know that with the new system until you scanned the bodies. *This* part can only be slower with the new system. You're gonna have to do a full system scan (or close to anyway) :/

Has it been verified that we need to fly to planets to launch probes? Afaik we haven't seen the prob launching interface. For all we know, that's what the zoomed in surface view is for: aiming probes. This does raise questions about the speed of probes.

Tbh, there are very few ways in which the old system map reveal and the new active filters could be reconciled. Knowing anything about all about the bodies (except the basic layout with no distances or surface details) would make the active filters included in the new mechanic completely pointless.

Glad that you agree about the new mechanic being better in the actual cockpit HUD. Seems there is general agreement about that, but no idea if it's even feasible.

This bit of the OP in the reveal

"To allow for skilled play you can aim probes away from the planet, allowing them to arc around it, potentially letting you hit the surface on far side of the planet. If you aim too far away, the probe will fly right past and miss, but by using mass and size information displayed on the HUD you will be able to lob probes and get full coverage without having to fly around the planet."

reads to me like we're gonna have to be close enough to at least determine the planet is a sphere - not a wee dot. Especially the "get full coverage without having to fly around the planet" suggests to me that we're expected to be close enough for flying around the planet to be a consideration. I think we're gonna need to be a lot closer than is needed for the current DSS, but we'll see.

 

[racer1]

I will answer to your question because in my opinion the process is clear

1. You jump into a system

2. You press the Scanner button and the new interface will pop-up. I suppose there is now a "honk" that provides a full scan of the main star and detects all signals in the systems.

This is the problem with the way FD drip feed info. Rampant speculation and multiple interpretations.

To you cmdr it is pretty clear, but for me from what I've read I disagree about point 2. From what I read you still honk and then open the new interface.

I also read that at a glance, once learnt, you can tell what type of planets are present. Just as quickly as now. Adam did respond somewhere confirming that was the idea.

So all these threads are largely pointless when we don't really know how it will work because FD didn't demo it...

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

While I think that there may be some benefits built into the new approach, if it takes longer and more involvement to get exactly the same information I'm not sure how this is a net benefit to us. Four years ago, sure. This would have been great back then. But this feels like taking something away and then giving the same thing back to us, but impeded by some additional repetitive gameplay.

Again, I hope to stand corrected. But if it's close to what I've got pictured in my mind, it'll threaten to make playing the game impractical for me. I'm not altogether succeeding in my attempt to not prejudge, but I'm trying.

FDev could really do a lot to clarify all of this.

It should be quicker to get the same information. The new DS is the old ADS and DSS rolled into one and getting all of that information should be much quicker then the old way. The main issue is that the old ADS got you some information instantly. Personally I don't mind that.

Saying that, if you can tell what planets are what from the wave forms, then you will have similar information available to you instantly. How easy that is, how fast it is and whether it is good enough is another question.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

...and how exactly do you still safely pilot your ship in SuperCruise whilst doing all these wonderful new things? You have to be in SC to use the scanner.

You have to be in SC to use the probes. As to the new DS I fail to understand why we would need to be in SC to use that.

Frontier obviously created the new scan mechanic as a TIME SAVER.

How do we know this?

Think about it. The current time sinks for exploration are as follows:

1) travel to object
2) scan object

Under the proposed system we have:

1) scan object
2) lob probes at object

But if we kept the old scan mechanic and added the new probes, we'd have:

1) travel to object
2) scan object
3) lob probes at object


From this vantage point it's easy to see that keeping the old mechanic and adding the probes would dramatically slow down exploration. Ergo it seems painfully obvious that one of the reasons that Frontier created the new scan mechanic was to SAVE TIME in order to make room in the time budget for the new Probe Mechanic.

From my understanding we still need to travel to the planet to lob probes at it, but at least it will give us reasons to travel their and lob probes at it.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Well I'm keeping an open mind on how it will effect MY way of exploration, until I start testing it in Beta.

It may well quicken how I decide if a system is 'worth my time' investigating further OR it may well slow it down.

It then also depends on how much of this POI is REALLY worth investigating. I'll be at bit miffed if I'm seeing these POI signatures in EVERY system & they just turn out to be burnt out SRV's or cargo being guarded by skimmers.

The new system would be a wasted exercise without PROPER content to go out & find!

They have already said that surface POI found by probes and hinted by on the main scan would be permanant, so it would be unregistered outposts, it would be thargoid or guardian ruins, it would be geological things such as the fumerols and other stuff that FDev are injecting into the game which we haven't seen yet as well as the space phenomenon.

Thinks like skimmers I suspect will be the same as the current method, the blue circle which I am fine about, you need to be closer to pick up the signature.

 

[gooddoc]

They have already said that surface POI found by probes and hinted by on the main scan would be permanant, so it would be unregistered outposts, it would be thargoid or guardian ruins, it would be geological things such as the fumerols and other stuff that FDev are injecting into the game which we haven't seen yet as well as the space phenomenon.

Thinks like skimmers I suspect will be the same as the current method, the blue circle which I am fine about, you need to be closer to pick up the signature.

I certainly hope so.

I also hope that the new scanner will tell which one it is. I'd still be miffed if I was having to scan a system full of Ice/Rock worlds, because 1 contains an interesting permanent POI, launching shedloads of probes, just for a forest of Brain Trees!!!!! - that would get old VERY quickly for me!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I certainly hope so.

I also hope that the new scanner will tell which one it is. I'd still be miffed if I was having to scan a system full of Ice/Rock worlds, because 1 contains an interesting permanent POI, launching shedloads of probes, just for a forest of Brain Trees!!!!! - that would get old VERY quickly for me!

They have already told us that whenever you scan/find a planet it will give you a hint of what can be found on that planet whether it is geological, biological, technological or something else or a mixture of the all of them. What we will have to do to find the location and what it is, is use the surface probes. You will not have to probe every planet to find the POI. So most planet you can safely ignore if you so wish or ignore all of them if you are not interested in seeing what the POI is.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

There needs to be caches of G5 Materials out there to be found. Like 50 Data-mined Wake Exceptions etc....

We need some treasure...……...

 

[gooddoc]

They have already told us that whenever you scan/find a planet it will give you a hint of what can be found on that planet whether it is geological, biological, technological or something else or a mixture of the all of them. What we will have to do to find the location and what it is, is use the surface probes. You will not have to probe every planet to find the POI. So most planet you can safely ignore if you so wish or ignore all of them if you are not interested in seeing what the POI is.

What I'm saying is, should in a system there be 40 Rock/Ice planets showning in the ADS scanner, but there's also a POI signal from one of these planets, you would have to find out by scanning until you found which planet this was on.
When found, it may well just be Brain Trees, but I may not know until I hit the right Planet in the scanner, before I then decide to fly to it or not with surface probes!

Would this be better in the long run?

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

I certainly hope so.

I also hope that the new scanner will tell which one it is. I'd still be miffed if I was having to scan a system full of Ice/Rock worlds, because 1 contains an interesting permanent POI, launching shedloads of probes, just for a forest of Brain Trees!!!!! - that would get old VERY quickly for me!

They have already told us that whenever you scan/find a planet it will give you a hint of what can be found on that planet whether it is geological, biological, technological or something else or a mixture of the all of them. What we will have to do to find the location and what it is, is use the surface probes. You will not have to probe every planet to find the POI. So most planet you can safely ignore if you so wish or ignore all of them if you are not interested in seeing what the POI is.

Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOcBIuvH7fo&feature=youtu.be&t=44m45s

 

[shreddog]

There needs to be caches of G5 Materials out there to be found. Like 50 Data-mined Wake Exceptions etc....

We need some treasure...……...

Not a bad idea actually. Some people need more incentives to explore.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

What I'm saying is, should in a system there be 40 Rock/Ice planets showning in the ADS scanner, but there's also a POI signal from one of these planets, you would have to find out by scanning until you found which planet this was on.
When found, it may well just be Brain Trees, but I may not know until I hit the right Planet in the scanner, before I then decide to fly to it or not with surface probes!

Would this be better in the long run?

Which is far better then what we have now, which is scan system, have no hints what so ever (there could be a lot of interesting things on these planets that we will never know), if you find the system interesting, start scanning them with the DSS, this can take a lot of time. This will tell you if it has geological stuff on it, but not pinpoint it, but nothing else. You can hope it has something else on it and then start to eyeball the planet just on the off chance it has something.

This method and currently the only method we have to find anything can literally take one person days in one system and then you may not find anything worth investigating.

The new system is far better then what we have now as we do not have anything now. As to the long term, well it can only get better as I can see them introducing more stuff with each future update and then it would be even more usefull when/if we get atmoshperic planets.

Yes, long term, I can see this being a massively important update that will only make exploration much much more interesting when more planets become available.