New Module(to improve Quality of Life for long play sessions)

[CaptainCaboose]

Morning all

While I sit here at work shirking all responsibility, I had a thought:

Kinetic Ammo Racks as optional internal modules.

If, as a PVE combat-oriented T-10 player, I wanted to sacrifice some HRP slots to ensure I was carrying extra ammo for extended runs through the HazRez, I should be able to, right?

From a balance perspective: Mass obviously increases with module class. I don't believe it would imbalance PVE or PVP, NPC's already have unlimited ammo as far as I've seen, and other players would have the same access to the modules, so no issues there.

I feel like separating the ammo modules between weapon types would just unnecessarily increase complexity/number of modules needed(1 for ordnance, 1 for projectiles, 1 for guardian, 1 for Experimental, plus all the different sizes)

I think just a flat % increase to ammo for all kinetic weapons would probably be best.

Percentages wouldn't be hard to figure out:

Class 1= 225% increase to all ammo carried
Class 2= 250%
Class 3= 275%
Class 4= 300%
Class 5= 325%
Class 6= 350%
Class 7= 375%
Class 8= 400%

A multi-cannon carries 2200 rounds(100 preloaded), a Class 8 Ammo rack with 400% increase would mean 11000 extra ammo for that single cannon. More cannons = more ammo. 9 multi-cannons would each have an additional 11000 rounds.

For Torpedoes: 3 ammo total(1 in the chamber, 2 in reserve), a class 8 ammo rack would increase that to 12 rounds, making it a viable weapon choice for once.

Give me your thoughts!

 

[Jimbodiah]

Euhm, you can synthesize as much ammo as you need with materials

 

[RamirezKurita]

Rather than simply multiplying the existing capacity, I'd rather if they carried fixed amounts of ammunition depending on their class and with each weapon class requiring a certain amount of storage for a reload. Multiplying all weapons' ammunition capacities doesn't really make much sense, plus it encourages loading up on a single weapon type rather than padding out your kinetic weapons with some energy weapons to make your ammunition reserves last.

For example, if we assume that most weapons are 50% weapon and 50% ammunition, this means that a class 1 Multicannon would have it's 2000 rounds capacity weighing in at 1 tonne while a huge multicannon would carry 8 tonnes of ammunition. A class 1 module with 2 tonnes capacity would therefore be able to fully reload a pair of small weapons or a single medium weapon. Meanwhile, a class 4 magazine with its 16 tonnes of capacity would be able to reload a small multicannon 16 times, a huge multicannon twice or reload all the weapons on a FDL once. A class 7 magazine with its 128 tonne capacity would almost contain 5 complete reloads for a Corvette's entire weapon bank if it is using entirely kinetics, or could be used to reload the main huge mounts' reserves a full 8 times, or you could just reload a single small cannon 128 times.

Some weapons, such as missile launchers and torpedo launchers, would have relatively heavier ammunition, perhaps with effectively their entire weapon mass being put into their ammunition. These weapons could also be balanced further with extra ammunition reserves by making reloading from the main ship magazines a long process to prevent endless torpedo spam from larger ships.

Another alternative would be to make a ammunition synthesis module (probably replacing the current in-game synthesis that makes basically zero sense) that is able to draw canisters of material from the main cargo bays to be processed into workable ammunition, similar to how limpet controllers launch limpets from the cargo. A ship would be able to buy canisters from stations which would be converted into ammunition as the weapons run dry, possibly with different weapon types requiring different prefab canisters to be reloaded.

 

[Stealthie]

Give me your thoughts!

I think that carrying ammunition as cargo would open up a whole can of worms related to weight, as well as requiring some kind of limpet-style buying/selling mechanic in the UI.

I guess some people might prefer buying extra ammo' to scavving for mat's and then synthesising it but I'd rather FDev didn't devote time to fixing a problem that nobody has.

 

[CaptainCaboose]

I guess some people might prefer buying extra ammo' to scavving for mat's and then synthesising it but I'd rather FDev didn't devote time to fixing a problem that nobody has.

It's definitely still a problem. Casual players(those who can't devote more than a couple hours per week, ie: the vast majority) have to make a choice: Either spend their valuable playtime scavenging mats for synthesis to have extra ammo capacity onboard(farming) or actually engaging in combat(not farming).

We're not talking about carrying ammo in a cargo rack. We're talking about an all new module who's sole specific use is to increase carried ammo. It won't be cargo, can't be jettisoned/can't be traded.

Their time in a Rez/CZ is limited by either running weapons without ammo(negating a majority of weapon loadout schemes), or running back to station every 15 minutes to reload(wasting that valuable playtime).

By allowing the purchase of an ammo rack, their combat playtime is increased, potentially to an hour straight, and farming/shuttling ammo time is decreased. For a combat oriented player with limited playtime, it's an issue that could be easily fixed. Again, it's a QOL improvement across the board for the hardcore as well.

Instead of running back to a station 4 times an hour because you're out of ammo, you would be returning once. It's an increase in fun gameplay while reducing tedium.

 

[Caldric]

As good as any idea on the subject. The idea that my Corvette or even your T10 can only carry 2100 rounds per gun is outdated and silly.

 

[CaptainCaboose]

Rather than simply multiplying the existing capacity, I'd rather if they carried fixed amounts of ammunition depending on their class and with each weapon class requiring a certain amount of storage for a reload. Multiplying all weapons' ammunition capacities doesn't really make much sense, plus it encourages loading up on a single weapon type rather than padding out your kinetic weapons with some energy weapons to make your ammunition reserves last.

When writing up the post, the reason I started with a 225% increase was due to running some guesses on ammo weight, then factoring in that raw weight in a size 4 slot against a size 4 cargo hold's carrying capacity, to make them close to equal.

To clarify what I was suggesting, let's say you have a type 10 with a spread of weapon types, let's say, 4 Large MC's, 3 Medium Beams, and 2 Small Torpedo launchers. You fit a single Class 8 Ammo rack for funzies.

Class 8 rack would increase kinetic weapon ammo by 400%.

The MC's would now each have 8800 ammo each. Not game-breaking

The Beams are unaffected

The Torpedos would go from 2 rounds each to 8, giving you 16 torps.

Even if you decided to do an insane build, like a full-torp T10, you're looking at a base capacity of 25 Torp's, with a max of 100 total. Now, I can definitely agree that a boat running 100 Torpedoes would be insane, but as you said, with longer reload times and massive heat generation, not unbeatable. With silent running, PDD, and evasion, you could survive long enough to get your own shots off. Additionally, that boat sacrificed a class 8 shield, or similar class 8 Hull/SCB, making them weaker.

I'm seriously tempted to go run a full torp build now just to see how it fares.

As good as any idea on the subject. The idea that my Corvette or even your T10 can only carry 2100 rounds per gun is outdated and silly.

Agree 100%, I can run a full weapons build with room for 500 tons(1 MILLION LBS) of cargo, but I can't put some extra ammo in the glove box is ridiculous.

 

[Caldric]

Agree 100%, I can run a full weapons build with room for 500 tons(1 MILLION LBS) of cargo, but I can't put some extra ammo in the glove box is ridiculous.

Yes and you can pull stuff from your magic wizard bag and insta poof some ammo if you bother with gathering all the stuff to instantly create 1200 rounds of ammo... but no reloads in the cargo hold. Strange what these devs come up with.

 

[Autoculto]

Some of these weapons are twice the size of a family car. How small do you think the rounds are ? Modern day battle tanks only carry around 40 rounds of main ammo.
I don't feel the problem is related to cargo capacity though. Unless a major overhaul and conversion was done to the internals there would be no way to feed the ammo from the cargo hold to the weapons. From an engineering perspective I feel that a lot of the weapon placements would not benefit from such a large alteration without drastically reducing the structural integrity of the vessel and vessel wide decompression if the hull was breached.

 

[Caldric]

Some of these weapons are twice the size of a family car. How small do you think the rounds are ? Modern day battle tanks only carry around 40 rounds of main ammo.
I don't feel the problem is related to cargo capacity though. Unless a major overhaul and conversion was done to the internals there would be no way to feed the ammo from the cargo hold to the weapons. From an engineering perspective I feel that a lot of the weapon placements would not benefit from such a large alteration without drastically reducing the structural integrity of the vessel and vessel wide decompression if the hull was breached.

Yet we can magically pull out our wizard wand and create ammo from nothing? But having a module that reloads the ammo is a no go?

 

[Caldric]

Ammo has to be in some kind of magazine so you eject the empty one into space and the module rams the new one home and reloads.

 

[CaptainCaboose]

Yes and you can pull stuff from your magic wizard bag and insta poof some ammo if you bother with gathering all the stuff to instantly create 1200 rounds of ammo... but no reloads in the cargo hold. Strange what these devs come up with.

I get why Synthesis needed to happen, kind of, specifically for explorers/miners and as a QoL thing, and why they made it so anybody can magically synthesize anything, sure. But 99% of combat operations take place within jump-range of stations, I think they could take away ammo synth for kinetics and just utilize my idea instead. Less lore-breaking.

 

[Autoculto]

Yet we can magically pull out our wizard wand and create ammo from nothing? But having a module that reloads the ammo is a no go?

Very good point, let's get rid of synthesis as well
Everyone would benefit from less grind.

 

[CaptainCaboose]

Some of these weapons are twice the size of a family car. How small do you think the rounds are ? Modern day battle tanks only carry around 40 rounds of main ammo.

It's not the size of the rounds that matter, it's the size of the ship that counts. The Type 10 can carry 1,000,000lbs of cargo. 1 million pounds. Thats 8 M1 Abrams, fully loaded. There's definitely room in that body for an ammo reloading station and spare magazines.

 

[Caldric]

Very good point, let's get rid of synthesis as well
Everyone would benefit from less grind.

I never said get rid of anything no need to get dramatic, just add some common sense items to the ships like I don't know magazine reloads not like have to reprogram the game considering they already have magic synthesis that is my point and only point on the magic wizard bag of stuff.

 

[CaptainCaboose]

Very good point, let's get rid of synthesis as well
Everyone would benefit from less grind.

Everyone except explorers and miners. Running out of limpets sucks as a miner, and for explorers, being able to synth repair is a lifesaving, creditsaving feature that absolutely needs to stay.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Support this idea. For pve, ballistic ammo is pretty much a cosmetic decision. One that penalizes you for using it.

Also this wouldn't make synthesis redundant at all. Synthesis doesn't even fill the same role. It's a feature you use in an emergency due to the cost of using it, and the time needed to gather material.

 

[CaptainCaboose]

Support this idea. For pve, ballistic ammo is pretty much a cosmetic decision. One that penalizes you for using it.

Also this wouldn't make synthesis redundant at all. Synthesis doesn't even fill the same role. It's a feature you use in an emergency due to the cost of using it, and the time needed to gather material.

Couldn't have said it better

 

[RamirezKurita]

When writing up the post, the reason I started with a 225% increase was due to running some guesses on ammo weight, then factoring in that raw weight in a size 4 slot against a size 4 cargo hold's carrying capacity, to make them close to equal.

To clarify what I was suggesting, let's say you have a type 10 with a spread of weapon types, let's say, 4 Large MC's, 3 Medium Beams, and 2 Small Torpedo launchers. You fit a single Class 8 Ammo rack for funzies.

Class 8 rack would increase kinetic weapon ammo by 400%.

The MC's would now each have 8800 ammo each. Not game-breaking

The Beams are unaffected

The Torpedos would go from 2 rounds each to 8, giving you 16 torps.

Even if you decided to do an insane build, like a full-torp T10, you're looking at a base capacity of 25 Torp's, with a max of 100 total. Now, I can definitely agree that a boat running 100 Torpedoes would be insane, but as you said, with longer reload times and massive heat generation, not unbeatable. With silent running, PDD, and evasion, you could survive long enough to get your own shots off. Additionally, that boat sacrificed a class 8 shield, or similar class 8 Hull/SCB, making them weaker.

I'm seriously tempted to go run a full torp build now just to see how it fares

The part that doesn't make sense to me here though is that 256 tonne module carrying wildly different amounts of ammunition depending on your loadout. Sure, your suggested build would have the magazine containing 32K large multicannon rounds and 12 torpedoes, but if you were to swap out the lasers for a trio of medium cannons then the magazines would magically find space for an additional 1440 medium cannon shells. This overall means that an identical module can have a capacity ranging from 8000-odd small multicannon cartridges all the way up to 72k multicannon cartridges in a variety of sizes (including large and huge mounts that likely weigh 4+ times as much per shell).

Alternatively, a tiny 2 tonne class 1 module could contain entire reloads for a whole set of different weapons, including large and huge mounts.

Not to mention how a 128x increase in module size only yields slightly more than a doubling in capacity.

Hence my suggestion about making them mass based rather than a simple multiplier to ammunition. If massive capacities thanks to class 7-8 modules pose a problem, they could quite easily be limited to class 5 bays (maximum military slot size) which would only allow 32 tonnes of ammo to be carried each. Smaller capacities would probably work better than larger ones anyway, as it would make selecting the weapons to have spare ammunition feasible at the outfitting stage rather than the resupply stage. Sure, a T-10 could load up on 128+ torpedoes by using all of its smaller slots and military slots for magazines, but that would leave it lacking in HRPs, MRPs and GSRs.

 

[kurush]

Euhm, you can synthesize as much ammo as you need with materials

Except that farming those materials takes more time than just finding a place to dock. Being able to buy these materials for credits would obviously solve the problem.