New Planet Tech is KILLER of Exploration (all terrain is tiling/repeating/not procedural/random)

[LoneTech]

I beg to differ... The desire for every object to be indistinguishable from the other billion approachable objects is what is being aimed at here. The fidelity has to be compromised otherwise... (see below)


I... LOVE... Orbiter. For realism and having to use your noggin, it's just the bees knees.

However, to get the kind of fidelity that works in Orbiter, it's somewhere in the region of half a terabyte JUST for the solar system.

The first claim appears to be inconsistent to the degree of incoherence. We don't want objects to be indistinguishable; that would make them perfect clones. This is precisely the opposite of what we want. Right now we have objects with major and common features that are patently repeated, not just similar. We want the system to be flexible enough that even if it does reuse static assets it isn't obvious.

The second is also mistaken. We do not need immense datastores for notable differentiation; we only need a sufficiently wide procedural generation function that no seeds produce obvious repetition. The counting argument reveals that this requires that there are enough seeds to uniquely identify the objects, which is easily accomplished (for starters, they all have unique names and placements as is). But more than that, we don't want it to just present a particular unrepeated pattern of just a handful of easily distinguished surface features. The features must mutate or blend sufficiently. In many of the examples shown, merely rotating the rocks a little would likely have sufficed.

The Book of Shaders provides a large number of decent starting points, particularly in the chapter on generative designs.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

The first claim appears to be inconsistent to the degree of incoherence. We don't want objects to be indistinguishable; that would make them perfect clones. This is precisely the opposite of what we want. Right now we have objects with major and common features that are patently repeated, not just similar. We want the system to be flexible enough that even if it does reuse static assets it isn't obvious.

The second is also mistaken. We do not need immense datastores for notable differentiation; we only need a sufficiently wide procedural generation function that no seeds produce obvious repetition. The counting argument reveals that this requires that there are enough seeds to uniquely identify the objects, which is easily accomplished (for starters, they all have unique names and placements as is). But more than that, we don't want it to just present a particular unrepeated pattern of just a handful of easily distinguished surface features. The features must mutate or blend sufficiently. In many of the examples shown, merely rotating the rocks a little would likely have sufficed.

The Book of Shaders provides a large number of decent starting points, particularly in the chapter on generative designs.

Yes, I used the incorrect word. Should have been distinguishable.

I was referring to the referenced Orbiter, for which the exquisite textures are altogether around half a terabyte to achieve - being something that someone pointed to as a sort of "would like this" even in jest. So no, not mistaken, just misunderstood. Did you not read the referenced post? Perhaps then you would have realised what I was referring to.

The same thing applies though - at some point you need to balance between universal access to the Game and Fidelity - which in this case, is down to on foot level - something Horizons and the old tech could not and did not handle.

 

[Erei]

Yes, I used the incorrect word. Should have been distinguishable.

I was referring to the referenced Orbiter, for which the exquisite textures are altogether around half a terabyte to achieve - being something that someone pointed to as a sort of "would like this" even in jest. So no, not mistaken, just misunderstood. Did you not read the referenced post? Perhaps then you would have realised what I was referring to.

The same thing applies though - at some point you need to balance between universal access to the Game and Fidelity - which in this case, is down to on foot level - something Horizons and the old tech could not and did not handle.

We just want the strings to be hidden and the obvious bug fixed.
Asset recycling is as old as gaming, but the important part is to hide it. The game doesn't even try.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Bugs aside, the obviousness of the asset reuse isn't so obvious in all my travels. There are a handful of objects that do come up from time to time, but most of the time I am playing the game - so they slip by me quite easily because I am looking elsewhere.

I have seen 1, just 1, time where the repeating pattern almost appears in the organic overlay, but not in the actual ground textures.

Saying that, I don't fly around the galaxy looking for patterns in the background noise.

If people spent half the time they spend griping on the forums actually playing the game, rather than looking for a reason to hate it, they might actually find that these 'problems' aren't really problems. The intent of the game is to enjoy yourself.

For crying out loud, how did we survive in the 80's will all that wireframe and solid colours. It seems like the more advanced things get, the less imaginative people are. What gives?

 

[Amy Pendergast]

Bugs aside, the obviousness of the asset reuse isn't so obvious in all my travels. There are a handful of objects that do come up from time to time, but most of the time I am playing the game - so they slip by me quite easily because I am looking elsewhere.

I have seen 1, just 1, time where the repeating pattern almost appears in the organic overlay, but not in the actual ground textures.

Saying that, I don't fly around the galaxy looking for patterns in the background noise.

If people spent half the time they spend griping on the forums actually playing the game, rather than looking for a reason to hate it, they might actually find that these 'problems' aren't really problems. The intent of the game is to enjoy yourself.

For crying out loud, how did we survive in the 80's will all that wireframe and solid colours. It seems like the more advanced things get, the less imaginative people are. What gives?

That's what I ask myself when people can't read threads anymore but start the same discussion every day again and again and again...

A bit like Groundhog day...

 

[Erei]

That's what I ask myself when people can't read threads anymore but start the same discussion every day again and again and again...

A bit like Groundhog day...

Perhaps if we learn to play piano, save everyone's life, and successfully seduce the pretty girl in a single day, while learning about humility, we might be able to stop the time loop ? There is still hope.

 

[Chankk Saotome]

That's what I ask myself when people can't read threads anymore but start the same discussion every day again and again and again...

A bit like Groundhog day...

I know I'm absolutely guilty of this myself but taking a bit of time to step outside myself I think I know why we're all doing it too. It's shock and coping with accepting it. We're all along various stages of it, but there it is. We really do care about this game that much and... dare I say it... maybe that's the biggest problem from the start.

 

[Chankk Saotome]

^ This actually hurt to type out and acknowledge it.

Maybe that's just part of the process.

 

[Erei]

I know I'm absolutely guilty of this myself but taking a bit of time to step outside myself I think I know why we're all doing it too. It's shock and coping with accepting it. We're all along various stages of it, but there it is. We really do care about this game that much and... dare I say it... maybe that's the biggest problem from the start.

She was talking about the people who come to this thread, which is made to report issues and problem related to the planet gen, and say the same thing that were answered countless time already.
Especially the one who came to say "it's not true" and post a random picture of some planet.

It is quite tiresome.

The game is not dead yet. And they are working on it. We report issues in the hope it will be fixed.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

She was talking about the people who come to this thread, which is made to report issues and problem related to the planet gen, and say the same thing that were answered countless time already.
Especially the one who came to say "it's not true" and post a random picture of some planet.

It is quite tiresome.

The game is not dead yet. And they are working on it. We report issues in the hope it will be fixed.

You say that now (what this thread it for) but if you look at the grand title and the first 50 or so pages, it's almost all exaggerated, filled with hyperbole and hijacked by hooners pushing for the community to jump up and beat FDev verbally into submission over the planet tech, which, as demonstrated with random pictures of 'many different' planets, works quite well for some players/for some worlds - quantity undefined.

I will say what I see and I'm no shrinking violet to call out stuff. I have joined in with the issue reporting and created a number of issue reports myself.

If that's tiresome to you >shrugs< why interact in the first place.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

You say that now (what this thread it for) but if you look at the grand title and the first 50 or so pages, it's almost all exaggerated, filled with hyperbole and hijacked by hooners pushing for the community to jump up and beat FDev verbally into submission over the planet tech, which, as demonstrated with random pictures of 'many different' planets, works quite well for some players/for some worlds - quantity undefined.

So where is the exaggeration and hyperbole? If anything, the problem is white knights or the ignorant trying to downplay the issues - both the severity and frequency. I'm also a plain talker and say it as it is, and to that end:

EVERY landable planet has repeating pre-generated "terrain shapes". Those repeating tiles can be anywhere from planetary scale, seen from high orbit, down to kms or hundreds of metres in size, seen from 20+ km altitude. And anywhere in between.

My challenge from early in this thread still stands:
Find a landable planet that doesn't have these repeating terrain tiles. Post it here so that anyone can check. I'll wait.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Where is the Hyperbole?

You do realise that you are defining procedural generation and then asking for it to be shown you in a procedurally generated galaxy?

Fine!

Before I do, I just want to quote a favourite author:

Spoiler: How to fly

According to the Guide, the main thing that flying requires is the ability to throw yourself at the ground and miss. It says to throw yourself forward with all your weight and "the willingness not to mind that it's going to hurt", however it will surely hurt if you fail to miss the ground. The difficulty is in missing the ground, and doing so accidentally, as "deliberately intending to miss the ground" does not work.

“You have to have your attention suddenly distracted by something else then you're halfway there, so that you are no longer thinking about falling, or about the ground, or about how much it's going to hurt if you fail to miss it.”
—The Guide

Flying is notoriously difficult, which is why the majority of people fail and become disillusioned with this particular sport. However, flying can be accomplished if you find yourself distracted at the crucial moment of missing the ground, by things such as "a bomb going off in your vicinity", or "suddenly spotting an extremely rare species of beetle crawling along a nearby twig".

If you find yourself missing the ground completely and "bobbing just a few inches above the ground in what might seem to be a slightly foolish manner", then this is the moment that requires great concentration. The Guide says to "ignore all considerations of your own weight" and to "simply let yourself waft higher" as you float above the ground.

The Guide advises not to listen to what others may say, as they could say something such as: "Good God, man, you can't possibly be flying!". It is vitally important not to believe them or they will suddenly be right, and you will find yourself failing to miss the ground once again.

The final piece of advice that the Guide offers is to "try a few swoops". and then to drift above the treetops, breathing regularly. It is also heavily emphasised to not wave at anybody.

The Guide gives only a small amount of information about how to land; saying that landing is something which can only be learnt properly with experience, and that you will almost certainly "screw up" your first attempt.

Perhaps the reason you see the mirrors and the man behind the curtain, is that you believe someone who has told you "you cannot fly!"

Now - pictures you say. I don't store many full planet screenshots online because they are not relevant to my 'story' or my journey in ED, but I do have shots on my PC at home, which I may take time to trawl through and post for you to do your terrain shape word search with.

These are across all my travels from Alpha to where I am next to the NCG whatever Nebula. I have not filtered them or restricted any of them. You can see why they don't fit in with the story if you visit the Odyssey screenshot thread, the last of which is here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/the-great-big-odyssey-screenshots-thread.568114/post-9353206 and previous ones are linked, chain fashion.

Wait over!

Spoiler: Bet you missed it!

I am going to bet that you missed the spectacular first discovered name because you were too busy looking for patterns! I hope not, because it's burned into my memory now, and I hope you share my pain!

 

[Mack Winston]

For crying out loud, how did we survive in the 80's will all that wireframe and solid colours. It seems like the more advanced things get, the less imaginative people are. What gives?

The problem is that it's a regression. In Horizons, you could explore and any planet you found had a unique geography. In Odyssey, the uniqueness is gone - the planets all consist of the same heightmaps just rearranged a bit.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Where is the Hyperbole?

You do realise that you are defining procedural generation and then asking for it to be shown you in a procedurally generated galaxy?

Saying this, you're a perfect example of the ignorance. Procedurally generated terrain would result in no repeating terrain at all. That's the whole point of generating terrain mathematically/algorithmically using for example fractal noise.

Before I do, I just want to quote a favourite author:

Perhaps the reason you see the mirrors and the man behind the curtain, is that you believe someone who has told you "you cannot fly!"

Are you drunk? Trolling? Misdirecting?

Now - pictures you say.

No. I didn't ask for pics, especially with you redacting their names. That's just you being disingenuous. Give me the NAME(s) of system(s) you believe have no repeating terrain of the type described in this thread. If you think it's not a big issue and not frequently encountered, it should be easy for you, no? I'll wait.

 

[hunvagy]

Oh right ,the omax planet Also saying all planets have it is a bit of a hyperbole, but saying it doesn't exist is as well. That's what gets tiresome in my opinion.

Some planets (mostly non atmo) have serious problems in EDO, that wasn't perceived in Horizons. A lot of planets also suffer from extreme pop-in, at different graphical levels. Which ofc is hard to show in screenshots, but if you watch videos posted by either proponents or defendants of the EDO tech, you can see the inflatable mountains.

That's the problem. And the reason why there was hyperbole at the first part of the thread is because.. well land on Farseer and see how bad it looks compared to what you are used to, you probably lose your composure.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

As I have said before - not denying there are problems. It's not as bad as our friend who put out a challenge, then reneged, has said.

I have come across overlays with repeating patterns, but the underlying planet did not. I have the shot at home somewhere. I occasionally have pop-in at low levels, but not often, and usually I'm looking in another direction anyway. I'm looking for a flat spot to land my cow.

The reason I have names blurred is because I have not handed in the data and I would like to keep the first discovered bonus, thank you!

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Also saying all planets have it is a bit of a hyperbole...

I said all landable planets have it. Happy for you to prove otherwise. My challenge still stands. Tell us the name of a landable planet that doesn't have repeating tiles of the type described in this thread.

 

[hunvagy]

As I have said before - not denying there are problems. It's not as bad as our friend who put out a challenge, then reneged, has said.

I have come across overlays with repeating patterns, but the underlying planet did not. I have the shot at home somewhere. I occasionally have pop-in at low levels, but not often, and usually I'm looking in another direction anyway. I'm looking for a flat spot to land my cow.

The reason I have names blurred is because I have not handed in the data and I would like to keep the first discovered bonus, thank you!

It would be hilariously tragic, if most problems happen with planets in the bubble, that most people see, and not random stars 10-20k out. And seriously, I personally only found problems on non EDO planets, as in non atmo old time rocky, ice and HMCs. Especially some rocky ice planets are horrible at times.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

As I have said before - not denying there are problems. It's not as bad as our friend who put out a challenge, then reneged, has said.

I'm still waiting for you to name a landable planet that you believe doesn't have repeating tiles of the type described in this thread. You're the one reneging. Posting MB of irrelevance is all you've done so far.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

It would be hilariously tragic, if most problems happen with planets in the bubble, that most people see, and not random stars 10-20k out. And seriously, I personally only found problems on non EDO planets, as in non atmo old time rocky, ice and HMCs. Especially some rocky ice planets are horrible at times.

I wonder if that is a serious possibility.

There are additional constraints in the Bubble because of existing settlements and stations!