New Planet Tech is KILLER of Exploration (all terrain is tiling/repeating/not procedural/random)

[dannysquid]

There was a lot more wrong than just repeating textures but I think the poor use of tiling said more about the direction Frontier went with Odyssey planet gen (and illustrated it more starkly) than any of the other (harder to put into words) problems.

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Edit: in case people don't quite "get it" - I don't know how many of you are explorers, but I know you'll all be aware that it's a big part of this game ... heading out into the galaxy for weeks, months or even years, boldly going where no man (or woman) has gone before, in search of something new. Well try to imagine what a blow it would be to discover that the arrangement of star systems throughout the galaxy (and bodies within those systems) was all just tiling ... repeated patterns stamped across the galaxy. In an instant it would basically render the act of exploration utterly pointless.

I think there's a thing where if you're aiming at atmospheric worlds, you're going to run up against the weaknesses of using procedural noise to generate your landscapes.

The main magic trick of the planet generation isn't so much the realism or variety, it's that it's generating it all basically instantaneously. And once you start looking at the complexity of the landscapes on Earth, it's not something that simple noise functions are going to be very good at. More sophisticated code might get you closer, but it will slow everything down. I think the current code isn't actually rotating the features, and I wonder if it's one of those things where the maths works 10x as fast if you ditch rotation. The tricks they're using to create this stuff so fast has shortcomings we're not aware of.

What we have feels a bit rushed to me. I don't really notice or care about the tiling, but I don't like the way a lot of the mountains look -- like they've been added in a hurry without time to get them right.

Personally, I'd quite like them to have another look and regenerate the galaxy again before console release. Although this would no doubt make a different group of people very cross!

 

[Andro]

I don't like the way a lot of the mountains look -- like they've been added in a hurry without time to get them right.

This has probably become my main issue. I really hope they're also improving on the planet generation tech and not just looking into tiling. That would be a waste, to just "fix" tiling and not improve on anything else after having months of player feedback.

 

[Rat Catcher]

This has probably become my main issue. I really hope they're also improving on the planet generation tech and not just looking into tiling. That would be a waste, to just "fix" tiling and not improve on anything else after having months of player feedback.

A proper response was mentioned some months ago to the Planetary Tech. I guess it might happen once performance of EDO is to Frontier's satisfaction.

 

[Andro]

A proper response was mentioned some months ago to the Planetary Tech. I guess it might happen once performance of EDO is to Frontier's satisfaction.

My thoughts too. We were expecting a few things by the end of the year (statement on planet tech, anti-aliasing) that we didn't get. I'm guessing it all hinges on how much performance headroom they think they can make for those things before we get anything concrete.

 

[Rat Catcher]

My thoughts too. We were expecting a few things by the end of the year (statement on planet tech, anti-aliasing) that we didn't get. I'm guessing it all hinges on how much performance headroom they think they can make for those things before we get anything concrete.

Update 10 is allegedly performance focused (which will be interesting to see if it is 'substancial') and may even be the one that determines the future of the console version of EDO.

The impression I got when work on revising the new planetary tech was a reluctance to have to 'bake' all of the thousands of hand-placed Odyssey Surface assets along with the existing Horizons ones. (would be nice if the 'old' Horizons assets were updated for Odyssey also!)

The colouration changes have helped to conceal some of the tiling issues, but there still remains no outliers discovered in EDO, as well as the Horizons existing assets being 'flattened & rounded' noticably.

 

[Gauntlet]

I think there's a thing where if you're aiming at atmospheric worlds, you're going to run up against the weaknesses of using procedural noise to generate your landscapes.

The main magic trick of the planet generation isn't so much the realism or variety, it's that it's generating it all basically instantaneously. And once you start looking at the complexity of the landscapes on Earth, it's not something that simple noise functions are going to be very good at. More sophisticated code might get you closer, but it will slow everything down. I think the current code isn't actually rotating the features, and I wonder if it's one of those things where the maths works 10x as fast if you ditch rotation. The tricks they're using to create this stuff so fast has shortcomings we're not aware of.

What we have feels a bit rushed to me. I don't really notice or care about the tiling, but I don't like the way a lot of the mountains look -- like they've been added in a hurry without time to get them right.

Personally, I'd quite like them to have another look and regenerate the galaxy again before console release. Although this would no doubt make a different group of people very cross!

My main gripe was the wholesale loss of the complex, interesting terrain we had in Horizons. Odyssey added, what, 5% more landables in the form of tenuous atmospheric worlds but wiped the landscape of everything that had been found to date.

Whilst Oddy tech may be more interesting at foot level it cleared years of edge case oddball worlds, unique discoveries, interesting racing terrain, and challenging srv terrain.

I just wish they had left Horizon's landables alone and just employed the new tech on tenuous worlds instead, although I guess that may not have been technically possible

 

[Codger]

Here are just a few (it only lets me attach 10) of the screenshots I have personally taken in Odyssey in recent weeks. I honestly don't see any tiling or repetition in these. Perhaps I'm just oblivious to it. But to me, the planet tech looks excellent right now, and FD hasn't even finished with it according to their own admission.

I did see tiling when Odyssey was first released. Now, not so much. And I think some of these look very much like the pre-alpha stuff FD showed us way back when.

I know, opinions vary. But this is mine Exploration has definitely not been killed, for me.

 

[Andro]

the planet tech looks excellent right now

The mountains in last one and third from last (still stunningly good images just like the rest of yours, kudos) have that noise heighmap look to them though, those spire mountains need to be adjusted IMO. If you get close you can see the textures stretching very far on them

Compare that to your image #2 where the mountains + textures look so much more realistic.

would be nice if the 'old' Horizons assets were updated for Odyssey also!

Agreed!! The Horizons bases could actually be where that sphere of combat can really shine for missions and even conflict zones, which currently don't exist for Horizons POIs. They are big enough to have huge interior spaces, room for big SRV fights outside if NPCs can ever drive them, and they usually have air patrols that a wingmate could dogfight with. Instead of a normal ground conflict zone. I think a scenario like space Installations have would probably be the best fit.

 

[whothe]

It is a fact, not an opinion, that there is still quite a bit of obvious tiling out there. That doesn't mean you can't take pretty screenshots. It also doesnt mean that it hasnt improved quite a bit. But it is still a problem.

Using DSS to scan planets is probably the easiest way to see the tiling repetition still. The heatmap from space examples are not the worst ones for me though.

I don't explore tons but I have spent a few days recently doing just that. I would say as a rough guess I DSS mapped maybe 150ish planets and landed on about 50 to do exo samples. In that small sample group I came across 2 glaring examples of tiling. I dont take a ton of SS so I don't have any to show. But I would wager from my description that someone in here has a SS of exactly that, or has seen them.

1. On two planets I noticed some very conical shaped mountains, all over the surface, not as parts of a mountain range, but stand alone mountains on otherwise flat terrain with a lot of space between them. These mountains all had the same shape in varying sizes. So what? They also ALL had these deep conical shaped 'pits' on them. Basically you had the same mountains, with the same 'pits', the variation being the number of and placement of the pits on each mountain. Remember I probably only went down to the surface of about 50 planets, and I found the same thing on 2 of them...

2. The other example was a rock. When I first saw it, I thought wow, look at that unique rock! It had two flat sides jutting upwards and a hollowed out core, very cool. But then as I began to roam around looking for exo targets, I saw it again, and again. This same rock was everywhere, not very unique at all, I could see it multiple times just by turning around in one spot.
And I have seen that exact same 'unique' rock on several other planets as well. With the same problem, being that its quite clearly the same rock all over the place in slightly different size and orientation.

It's there. The problem with the tiling is that as soon as you design an 'item' to look stunning or cool and it becomes attention grabbing, unique, or has any kind of a standout feature.... anywhere it is repeated becomes painfully obvious. This is the inherent flaw with the new system.

 

[Alec Turner]

The other example was a rock. When I first saw it, I thought wow, look at that unique rock! It had two flat sides jutting upwards and a hollowed out core, very cool. But then as I began to roam around looking for exo targets, I saw it again, and again. This same rock was everywhere, not very unique at all, I could see it multiple times just by turning around in one spot.
And I have seen that exact same 'unique' rock on several other planets as well. With the same problem, being that its quite clearly the same rock all over the place in slightly different size and orientation.

Oh god, I know the exact rock you mean, it's like a badly worn cotton reel on its side, somewhat reminiscent of a desert rose if people know what those are.

 

[Rat Catcher]

desert rose if people know what those are.

Yep! Gottit!

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTHCwU9rUdY

(Sorry Alec!)

 

[Prof Horatio Hafnaugels]

The mountains in last one and third from last (still stunningly good images just like the rest of yours, kudos) have that noise heighmap look to them though, those spire mountains need to be adjusted IMO. If you get close you can see the textures stretching very far on them

Compare that to your image #2 where the mountains + textures look so much more realistic.

I 100% agree with you on this.
I'm not a geologist, but all those spikes look really weird to me...

 

[Codger]

The mountains in last one and third from last (still stunningly good images just like the rest of yours, kudos) have that noise heighmap look to them though, those spire mountains need to be adjusted IMO. If you get close you can see the textures stretching very far on them

I agree with you there. Some of the height maps are pretty bad. I don't mind a bit of stretching if the results are still interesting. But, I dislike the "melted cheese" planets. Used to see a lot more of those than now, but they are really ugly.

Also, the anti-aliasing on some planets is just awful.

But we were talking about tiling and repeating textures, which is a different issue than those.

Hopefully, they can improve at least the anti-aliasing. I'd like to see that.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Here are just a few (it only lets me attach 10) of the screenshots I have personally taken in Odyssey in recent weeks. I honestly don't see any tiling or repetition in these. Perhaps I'm just oblivious to it. But to me, the planet tech looks excellent right now, and FD hasn't even finished with it according to their own admission.

I did see tiling when Odyssey was first released. Now, not so much. And I think some of these look very much like the pre-alpha stuff FD showed us way back when.

I know, opinions vary. But this is mine Exploration has definitely not been killed, for me.

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It seems the only point to this post is to show that if you take screenshots at ground level, or at a very acute angle to the surface, the repeating terrain is not very noticeable. It's almost like you've gone out of your way to make sure your viewing angle avoids the issue.

Having said that, the 3rd screenshot is at a sufficiently large angle in the lower left corner to show repeating terrain, despite your attempts to avoid it.

Edit: Turns out I'm only about 2000 Ly from that first system. Might hop on over to take a look.

 

[Codger]

It seems the only point to this post is to show that if you take screenshots at ground level, or at a very acute angle to the surface, the repeating terrain is not very noticeable. It's almost like you've gone out of your way to make sure your viewing angle avoids the issue

Nah. These are just screenies I took along the way. Not for this thread, certainly. I have a folder full of screenshots because I like to take screenshots.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

The same goes for the other side of the fence: You get what you are looking for. Odyssey certainly has its warts and wrinkles, but from certain angles it can be simply beautiful.

Which misses the main point of this thread entirely. This thread is not about whether Odyssey is beautiful or produces great screenshots. Just read the OP.

What BlackMaze, Alec Turner (above), myself and many others have outlined in this and other threads is that we've gone from Horizons procgen where every planet has unique terrain (excepting craters perhaps?), to Odyssey where terrain tiles are repeated thousands (in fact I assume millions) of times for each landable planet. And those same tiles are repeated across all the landable planets in the galaxy.

Some explorers have already left the game because of this, as exploration to them is an expectation that what is being explored parallels reality - ie. unique terrain across the galaxy. We had that in Horizons. We don't in Odyssey. Of course there are many other issues too. The homogeneity of the terrain now is disappointing, the lack of high mountains/canyons, the outliers.

But I can take beautiful screenshots now, especially on foot.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

But are we emotional again. I don't know where this glorification of Horizons is coming from, maybe from those who were mainly interested in the orbital view. It's basically all about the orbital view in this thread, I know your OP all too well. And also your ignorance of what Odyssey actually has to offer:

I don't generally respond to ad hominem attacks, but on this occasion I'll just point it out for what it is and move on. Good day.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

I don't know where this glorification of Horizons is coming from, maybe from those who were mainly interested in the orbital view. It's basically all about the orbital view in this thread,

I can now also confirm this is correct. Its a very serious issue. Makes you wonder why they didn't stick to procedural generation for the greater terrain features and used the texture mapping stuff only at ground where it does work well.

There are a few degrees of bad in odysee though, which maybe if its only partially improved it might be enough to register a pass.

The repeating from space color structures are bad. The weird pixel / sand effect, considering color combinations, can also be very bad.

Im running ultra blending and high terrain and terrain material as settings.

Ps. the ground perhaps is technically worse than horizons, maybe just the repeating texture itself needs more iteration, but the lighting covers up the deficiency and makes it good.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Everyone has their own pet peeve or is mainly interested in a particular part of Odyssey. For some it is (and always has been) the orbital views. For me, it's always been the regions near the ground, and there I find the still persistent LOD issues a far more intrusive problem than the more cosmetic problems with repeating structures (which quite often you have to actively search for to even notice them). But to each his own, I guess...
In the end, what counts is where the priorities are set and, above all, by whom.

To illustrate my point, watch this video (very fresh from last night, not edited). The first 4 minutes are an approach to a surface with a boring orbital view (which gets even uglier near the ground). I'm pretty sure if I wanted to, I could easily find some repeating patterns here. But I know what I'm looking for, and that's what you see after 4:00: Planetary walkabout in all its splendour, something I was strictly against at first, by the way. Today I'm a big fan of that aspect of Odyssey.

Yes okay okay, I love my Cobra...

Well luckily there are no canyons to go boosting in so lod issues…

To my eyes the planet you found was a better / more convincing example. The defect planets are far, far worse.. generally the measure I use is does the object still qualify within the fantasy of being a planet? Yes, it’s okay. If it’s just a badly textured marble or worse, then care has been missed.

 

[thistle]

Everyone has their own pet peeve or is mainly interested in a particular part of Odyssey. For some it is (and always has been) the orbital views. For me, it's always been the regions near the ground, and there I find the still persistent LOD issues a far more intrusive problem than the more cosmetic problems with repeating structures (which quite often you have to actively search for to even notice them). But to each his own, I guess...
In the end, what counts is where the priorities are set and, above all, by whom.

To illustrate my point, watch this video (very fresh from last night, not edited). The first 4 minutes are an approach to a surface with a boring orbital view (which gets even uglier near the ground). I'm pretty sure if I wanted to, I could easily find some repeating patterns here. But I know what I'm looking for, and that's what you see after 4:00: Planetary walkabout in all its splendour, something I was strictly against at first, by the way. Today I'm a big fan of that aspect of Odyssey.

Yes okay okay, I love my Cobra...

I watched your most recent video, that looks like the old Horizons-style fogging in the middle of the asteroid crater? I'm not sure I've seen that in EDO?

Good video btw, that planet looked great, and weird.