No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[Wolframium]

Ok, this I can understand

Thank you, I appreciate that. I mean it.

We have to move with the times no matter how much we dislike that part of the process in order to keep things alive in a much broader scope. These days, it's all about the online, social, teamwork fun. A group or gathering, shall we say.

I politely disagree. Look at Skyrim: it was as old fashionedly single player as they come, didn't even offer co-op multiplayer, and it sold by the buckets. Fallout would be another nice example. I agree that multiplayer/social/whatever gaming is on the rise, but that doesn't mean that there still isn't a big market out there for single player games.

EDIT: I also don't think we necessarily have to "move on with the times". If Lady Gaga is the most popular musician today, by all means let her fans enjoy her music and her concerts, but no one should be expected to drop their Mussorgsky, their Pink Floyd or their Iron Maiden because "times have changed". /EDIT

I've never said what others feel are invalid, but to throw it all away on mere prinicipal or pouting, come on.

But see, it's not on a mere principle. I'm not trying to "make a point" here. This isn't an ideological battle, it's just me asking for my money back because they have made the game into something that is as far from my gaming tastes as Hello Kitty. It isn't a matter of pride, ideals or anything of the sort.

 

[Shoklar]

After alot of pages here i learned, that only few care for the other and it's pointless to try to explain something to someone who does'nt want to listen.

Perhaps I can find a new way to motivate them:

"Youuu want offline mode don't you. *evil cackle*."

"Take your ship! Strike me down with all your hatred."

There, now get on-line and hunt me down for this outrage.

Shok.

 

[Oddball]

Thats like you guys acting because of your offline mode, so just stop it.

I wish people would try and discuss sensible solutions to a problem rather than just put silly youtube video's up.
It doesn't really help anyone does it?

 

[Ecks Theory]

See, that's the thing: I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, except that last part. It's a problem that I think is generally underestimated: not everyone is shaking their heads at FD. The gaming industry is unfortunately different from any other kind of business because there is always a sizeable portion of customers who will justify and defend gaming companies always no matter what.

If a fast food company made a mistake like that and told your girlfriend to "just eat it", not only would that end up in the news (as our problem did), but customers would most likely desert the place, a few heads would roll, and eventually someone high up would take one worried look at the negative customer influx figures pouring in, issue a formal apology and try to make it right, not because they actually cared about your girlfriend's hurt feelings, but because it would be the necessary move to save their business. Gaming companies on the other hand don't have to bother with any of that because, unfortunately, they know that they can always count on hordes of fanatical supporters.

Unfortunately I have to concede that you are correct. Its the reason why we still get broken games at launch, that are promised to be fixed down the road, yet they had the time to create loads of day one dlc to inflate the price of the base game.

Don't you go a little far with that?
We all are entangled in this issue and therefore way more sensitive to those news.
But others?
Did your hear about the "Assassins Creed - Unity" outcry?
Did your hear about the "Missing Editor in Far Cry 4" outcry?
Just to name a few, happened this and last week.

Not everyone is interested in this game or any other FD has to offer. "It is just one other game from one other game company, why should I care?"
Some even say, "Hey it's not even released, let's first see what tests will say."
Stuff like that happens everywhere, everytime, if it is games, cars, household products, you name it.
The internet community and media reporting became so oversensational and people got so used to it, that it just became normal to many and kind of a constantly flowing backgroundnoise.

Id say that certain things like broken games (unity) have become the norm, but from what Ive seen around the web the majority is looking very negatively at this issue. I suppose its because its yet another kickstart failure. There was a big cheer when kickstarter started, because it gave an avenue for things that the likes of EA and ubisoft deemed unsellable. But the first big profile kickstarter was an abject failure. Even on its release it was a laughing stock. Im talking of course about ouya. Then we move on to steam and its early access program. SO many promising games, that at this point have proven to be little more than scams. I think it was reported that in the past 3 years only 25% of games have been completed.

So the point is that while ED will sell and may even be a good game, its reputaion in the gaming community is forever tarnished as the same way the people still and moan about x rebirth. That game has come on leaps and bounds but it will never get a 2nd chance, and the makers will have a far more difficult time getting the next game sold because of that. And so it goes that ED might well have a great game but their next will have to rely solely on the good will of those that dont mind the off line being removed. They are little more to me and others as "that company that cant be trusted". More over the reputation of this community has been tarnished. What was here before was a group of people eager to experience a new generation of a classic game. Where as now we that most are pretty repugnant. They amount of hate an abuse the offline people have received is ridiculous. You would think it would be straight forward, change of description, offer a refund. Its pretty simple, yet a lot of people here are twisting anything they can to push the blame on us, for being either bored of the game and using the change of description as an excuse to get a refund, using the description change as an excuse to get a refund and then buy again at the cheaper price, or being reactionary to a principle and should just shut up. It cant possibly be that we paid for an off line mode that we arent getting and would like a refund, it must be that we are somehow trying to con poor ED out their hard earned cash. Being called spoiled brats and the like simply because we dont want to support something that we didnt want.

AS someone else said, if they had removed the on line part of the game I would have supported them. The way they react youd think we were calling them fat. We're just not interested in an online game. Doesnt matter how good an online game it is, its not what we paid for and we shouldnt be forced to "deal with it" just because we tried out the beta for 5 minutes.

The outrage may disappear but the memory of what happened wont. The real damage done here is to future kickstarters. If ED can get away with changing the final product at the last minute then so can anyone else. No one is going to support something that might end up being nothing like what was described.

 

[enbeekay]

So I guess what it comes down to is that we are just renting the game? Isn't that what it means for everyone now?....Technically I mean.

To be honest, that's what software has been like for many a year.
You don't OWN software, you merely purchase a license to use it.

 

[Adept]

The counter argument to that is there is always a sizeable portion of people who will try and cause trouble for trouble sake as well. And generally those people tend to be heard more then the defenders.

Yup. There are a subset of people who are basically motivated by negative feelings and thoughts about revenge and getting even, and not much else. The various revenge themed groups and other hate-groups on the net are ample evidence of this unfortunate psychological trait.

 

[Ecks Theory]

Not touching this... it would go way too far into psychological analysis. I think you may have some pretty deep seated issues there mate.

So you say youre not touching this, yet in doing so you just did. It doesnt take a phd to see when someone acts out of misplaced loyalty. For example victims of spousal abuse. Women or men who are abused by their partner yet dont leave and in most cases defend the actions of the abuser. And if youre trying to derail my point by suggesting I have some personal experience of abuse and should therefore be ignored or made fun of, well shame on you.

 

[enbeekay]

So you say youre not touching this, yet in doing so you just did. It doesnt take a phd to see when someone acts out of misplaced loyalty. For example victims of spousal abuse. Women or men who are abused by their partner yet dont leave and in most cases defend the actions of the abuser. And if youre trying to derail my point by suggesting I have some personal experience of abuse and should therefore be ignored or made fun of, well shame on you.

You're comparing computer game development to acts of serious physical and psychological harm?

 

[Edward Lewis]

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for posting your feedback and thoughts on the offline matter over the last few days. It's been an amazing week, and I've seen just how passionate people can be about this game (this thread being 'part 2' is a fine example). Sorry we haven't been as vocal on the threads as we should've been - we've been waiting on a collected official word to put in the newsletter to make sure the message is as clear as it can be. All the information in one place is better than putting scattered responses everywhere.

I can only apologise for the frustration that all of this has caused. David's said it best himself before - it was a hard decision to make, and not one that was made lightly. Unfortunately, it was the right decision to make - this is the Elite for 2014, and dropping offline was the only way to make the best version of the game.

I agree, we should've mentioned this to everybody sooner, but the development team genuinely thought they would be able to find a suitable solution in time. From my perspective, as somebody new to the company, I can honestly tell you that the decision was not taken lightly. I am lucky enough to be spending time with talented game developers, and I was in meetings with David B and Michael B when these decisions were being made. You could see how hard this one was for them, because they value the community, and the community's opinions on the product, more than you realise. The game couldn't be as good as it is without your support, and the many hours you've put in to testing, and they know that.

Also, the moderators have been pulling 24 hour shifts looking through these threads - so a big thanks to them, too! Please give them the respect they deserve... it's important to note that they weren't any part of this decision, and they didn't know about it before we announced it on Friday.

This community is the best, and I'm honoured to be a part of it. Send me an email at elewis@frontier.co.uk, or send me a PM on here if you want a faster response. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Ed

 

[Adept]

I get that, but having played the previous versions of elite onwards, they were rather stagnant and boring when nothing really changed no matter what missions I took or how many I killed. It was lifeless and lacked soul.

Shok.

The only offline adventure that has really felt alive for me was Ultima Underworld. All the Elder Scrolls games I tried were dead. I felt like an actor moving around in on a film set.

I keep being surprised by the fundamental rejection of a living galaxy as well. I guess if these people are stubbornly against even trying the game as it will finally be when it comes out, there is nothing to be done about that. I do feel that they are missing out on something great due to being too stubborn to give it a proper chance.

But it is what it is. I do feel bad for them, and I find the unnecessary drama very unfortunate and stupid.

The ones who literally can not play due to having no access to the internet should get compensated. The ones who are just stubbornly against even solo mode... I think they are just confused.

 

[Baragoon]

Video

This is a perfect representation of what is going on. The customer is the offline people upset at what is going on. The pawnbroker is FD using legal technicalities to deny a refund. And the security guy is lawers/white knights defending the pawn broker.

 

[Dejay]

Can someone explain to me why an offline mode would lead to an "empty game"? What content besides other players is there in multiplayer? Why would I NEED other players to influence economy and factions? If I want to play offline, I WANT to be the only one to influence the galaxy. It's actually one of my main reason for wanting an offline mode so I don't work towards a goal and suddenly 10 other players come in and work against the goal I have set for myself. And I wouldn't even know that other players have undermined my gameplay goals!

The whole "living breathing galaxy" is a very nice idea and good background, but how can it be the foundation for missions and story? Why would lack of online lead to an "empty" game? I really don't get this. You could have the same story and mission elements on the locally hosted galaxy server.

And besides, the game doesn't even have guilds / corps or chat channels, player to player text messaging in atrocious with the menu, there are no coop missions or "party" sized groups to tackle stuff. The game really has no multiplayer content except sandbox pvp atm. The announcing of "trading but no stolen cargo" in the newsletter does little to disuated my concerns that the multiplayer part of ED with be very lacking. It seems to me David Braben and the other designers never actually played an MMO and have no clue on how to build social features to create online emergent gameplay.

 

[Shoklar]

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for posting your feedback and thoughts on the offline matter over the last few days. It's been an amazing week, and I've seen just how passionate people can be about this game (this thread being 'part 2' is a fine example). Sorry we haven't been as vocal on the threads as we should've been - we've been waiting on a collected official word to put in the newsletter to make sure the message is as clear as it can be. All the information in one place is better than putting scattered responses everywhere.

I can only apologise for the frustration that all of this has caused. David's said it best himself before - it was a hard decision to make, and not one that was made lightly. Unfortunately, it was the right decision to make - this is the Elite for 2014, and dropping offline was the only way to make the best version of the game.

I agree, we should've mentioned this to everybody sooner, but the development team genuinely thought they would be able to find a suitable solution in time. From my perspective, as somebody new to the company, I can honestly tell you that the decision was not taken lightly. I am lucky enough to be spending time with talented game developers, and I was in meetings with David B and Michael B when these decisions were being made. You could see how hard this one was for them, because they value the community, and the community's opinions on the product, more than you realise. The game couldn't be as good as it is without your support, and the many hours you've put in to testing, and they know that.

Also, the moderators have been pulling 24 hour shifts looking through these threads - so a big thanks to them, too! Please give them the respect they deserve... it's important to note that they weren't any part of this decision, and they didn't know about it before we announced it on Friday.

This community is the best, and I'm honoured to be a part of it. Send me an email at elewis@frontier.co.uk, or send me a PM on here if you want a faster response. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Ed

Thank you, Edward.

I am glad you's at Frontier Developments had the forsight to recognize this loss and stop wasting resources on it and continue with the game without blundering through release with more disruption, patches and angry people. A big heart felt thankyou for sparing us that.

Shok.

 

[Bust Nak]

Just want to register at my displeasure at the recent revelation. Not angry enough to ask for a refund, but angry non the less. Those who wanted an offline mode knew that the universe would be essentually static. "Offline mode would compromise our vision of a dynamic universe" is not a good excuse. In fact I am not that bothered about the online part, and more angry about the fact that other players' action would still affect my singleplayer game.

 

[foxpur]

I've played plenty of games where they changed things after purchase making it not the game i bought. Can i claim refunds on all those as well?!

World of Warcraft comes to mind

 

[Xenonclouds]

To be honest, that's what software has been like for many a year.
You don't OWN software, you merely purchase a license to use it.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong as I understand that. The trouble I'm having is that it all seems so......temporary? The pure love of the original Elite games is the only thing keeping me going at this point, but at least I can play them still...This is my ONLY concern now....and sorry if this has already been mentioned a Zillion times already! I fully understand most of the reasons regarding the 'dynamic' galaxy aspect...I really do.
If ANYONE has group full of friendly online players, please invite me. I'm a 40 something die-hard Elite fan, who is a little upset by recent events, but willing to move with the times if needs must?

 

[Baragoon]

It doesnt take a phd to see when someone acts out of misplaced loyalty.

It does appear to be a bit of stockholm syndrome going on around here. :|

 

[Only]

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for posting your feedback and thoughts on the offline matter over the last few days. It's been an amazing week, and I've seen just how passionate people can be about this game (this thread being 'part 2' is a fine example). Sorry we haven't been as vocal on the threads as we should've been - we've been waiting on a collected official word to put in the newsletter to make sure the message is as clear as it can be. All the information in one place is better than putting scattered responses everywhere.

I can only apologise for the frustration that all of this has caused. David's said it best himself before - it was a hard decision to make, and not one that was made lightly. Unfortunately, it was the right decision to make - this is the Elite for 2014, and dropping offline was the only way to make the best version of the game.

I agree, we should've mentioned this to everybody sooner, but the development team genuinely thought they would be able to find a suitable solution in time. From my perspective, as somebody new to the company, I can honestly tell you that the decision was not taken lightly. I am lucky enough to be spending time with talented game developers, and I was in meetings with David B and Michael B when these decisions were being made. You could see how hard this one was for them, because they value the community, and the community's opinions on the product, more than you realise. The game couldn't be as good as it is without your support, and the many hours you've put in to testing, and they know that.

Also, the moderators have been pulling 24 hour shifts looking through these threads - so a big thanks to them, too! Please give them the respect they deserve... it's important to note that they weren't any part of this decision, and they didn't know about it before we announced it on Friday.

This community is the best, and I'm honoured to be a part of it. Send me an email at elewis@frontier.co.uk, or send me a PM on here if you want a faster response. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Ed

Thanks for the update, I think most people agree this could have been handled better but the past is the past on that one.

I don't know if you are planning to reply to the refund thread but I'm sure a lot of people would like to know the reasoning behind only pre-orders getting a refund.

A lot of people seem to feel ripped off by this policy and feel that they only played/used beta with the understanding offline would eventually be an option.

I understand you may not be able to comment on refunds maybe for legal reasons but if that's the case could you please say so.

Thanks

PS I don't want to get into the why anyone would want offline discussion, as I don't think people should have to justify it since it was going to be an option at the time they purchased.

 

[Adept]

I understand. It may be best to just leave the game for a while until you feel you have calmed down. I can totally understand strong reactions, and how they can poison the fun even in an objectively fun activity.

I hope it works out for you.

I don't disagree with any of your 3 points as a software developer of 16 years for a small firm, I am not blind to these difficulties and the especially where a higher ups are shall we say too enthusiastic vs the realities.

It is a cash driven decision, business always is. It has been considered to be not worth the expense to the business.

But businesses should not over promise and under deliver more so when they are accepting the public's money in advance. They may not of intentional gone out to mislead but that is the result.

I do say that the coders, artists and sound engineers have created a truly beautiful work. But even the thought of starting up the client is bringing a mix of nausea and rage. This whole thing they way it has been handled has kind of wrecked my fondest childhood gaming memories.

I'm not completely adverse to online multi-player gaming, played and enjoyed EvE online for many years. Some games I enjoy a more shall we say personal and enclosed rather than anti-social experience as the gated experience can be shared and enjoyed through conversation with others.

With the newsletter and the terms of service being as they are I may have no option but to keep it, not sure I'll ever be able to enjoy it again as I'd started too.

 

[jabokai]

You could see how hard this one was for them, because they value the community, and the community's opinions on the product, more than you realise. The game couldn't be as good as it is without your support, and the many hours you've put in to testing, and they know that.

Thanks for posting, I know it's not an easy topic!

Sadly, they don't care enough to offer unconditional refunds... if they'd actually offered them, you know what, I suspect the value would not have been that crippling and very much worth the good will and genuine (rather than just words on a forum) recognition of the value of the community.