No Single Player offline Mode then?

[HeadClot]

Most definitely. If it's a multiplayer game with a centralised server, then a mod could offer an unfair advantage to a single or group of players (the one running the mod). Since the argument used by the developers for not having an offline mode is that they don't want to compromise their vision of the game, even if they COULD offer modding capabilities in a multiclient system, I very much doubt they will, lest if pollute their ideals.

So they cannot release a mod kit with some form of dedicated server back end?

Because it is already multi client like most MMOs and Server client games. Just saying

 

[Perrial]

Most definitely. If it's a multiplayer game with a centralised server, then a mod could offer an unfair advantage to a single or group of players (the one running the mod). Since the argument used by the developers for not having an offline mode is that they don't want to compromise their vision of the game, even if they COULD offer modding capabilities in a multiclient system, I very much doubt they will, lest if pollute their ideals.

Would all mods be harmful though? UI mods or skins surely would be nice to see for example and not really give an advantage. I know that WoW took ideas from some mods and created their own 'official standard' versions, it may be a great creative ideas outlet for FD to utilise in the future. Especially as the game lacks user friendly areas in the interface.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

What happens when you sync YOUR version of the universe with FDs? Do you expect to keep your changes and also FDs updates? What if they changed something vital and it wipes out your single player stats or something. Now FD has to keep track of every users SP bugs/whining too aside from all the other stuff. Aint gonna happen.

You don't sync. The point about an offline version is that it would operate on a sandboxed galaxy, and you would not carry over anything into the persistent online game. Mods would be "at the users own risk", yada yada. It's not hard to patch in expansions to be content agnostic either, not when you're dealing with a galaxy on a predefined seed and then the SP modes running on the same core ruleset albeit on random seeds.

 

[Silanda]

So they cannot release a mod kit with some form of dedicated server back end?

Because it is already multi client like most MMOs and Server client games. Just saying

They could, yes. There's no indication that they will at present.

 

[Hermit]

That doesnt make any sense, surely a formal apology would alleviate some of the bad blood this has caused, FD looks bad now why make it worse?

I think they've taken the decision to say little and hope that it will all blow over. That could be a bit of a problem seeing as the premiere event to launch the game is on the 22nd.

 

[vonFelty]

Most definitely. If it's a multiplayer game with a centralised server, then a mod could offer an unfair advantage to a single or group of players (the one running the mod). Since the argument used by the developers for not having an offline mode is that they don't want to compromise their vision of the game, even if they COULD offer modding capabilities in a multiclient system, I very much doubt they will, lest if pollute their ideals.

Oh good lord. Its not a centralized server. It uses P2P code which has issues whereas EVE uses a centralized server clusters. I suppose the universe information might be on one server, but the multiplayer part of it is not.

 

[psyron]

Just stop. Please, just stop. If you know anything about procedural generation, if you know anything about random seeding and how to generate content based on procedural code and rulesets, just stop making these comments. If you do not, then please stop making comments upon topics that you -really- have no idea about.

I can assure you that not only is it quite feasible to pack a proceedurally generated galaxy onto a computer with pseudo random generated missions, NPC's and whatnot, but it's also very much possible to keep the vast bulk of them persistent in a database with the relevant lookups. This is not even technically difficult. Elite's -done- it in their previous games, so has the entire X series, along with a lot of other games in the meantime. So, just stop.

OH PLEASE, YOU STOP!

Don't talk to me like this! Of course i know about PG, but you are forgetting the essential part of ED.
It's not only about PG! FD want to create a galaxy with real interactions, a galaxy that is dynamic!!
You can create a random world with PG but you can't create a dynamic galaxy based on PG alone. If you really want to create a dynamic world PG has its limits.
What FD want to create is a galaxy that changes over time. To create a galaxy with PG is one thing but to make it appear dynamic based on PG is completely another story - or you go with completely random behavior of the NPCs. But if you want to create a world where players and NPCs dynamically affect a world based on their current status then you get something that is very much like a neural network: A system that changes over time based on the signals passing through this system. It may be possible to create even this with PG, but this would mean a completely different kind of PG, much more complex, not at all comparable to what they have now.

Study some computer science and neurology and come back to me when done so!

Edit:
To make an example: There might be a formula that explains the whole universe from the start to the end and it would include every one who is right now chatting in this forum. Yes, this also could be done with PG, but this would mean you have not only to understand the formation of stars and planets in a galaxy but you would need to create a formula that also includes all behavior of NPCs and the dynamically changing markets.
Think about games like Sim City or Civilization. They create starting points and then the game computes the AI behaviors to create all those cities and the rest going on. But it's a different thing to find a formula that will include all those transitions at once!

 

[synchromesh]

To be honest pretty much everything about offline has been contained to this thread..... And what it does show is the forums are still very active and Healthy and seem normal...
Most are still just enjoying the game and looking forward to Thursday...

Take a look outside guys ... ED Life is normal ... I think this is just going round and round until it just gets boring and the posts dry up...
I would have liked offline mode as much as anyone.... but I still love what I have and I wouldn't even consider a refund....In fact I will probably buy more addons..
I think the forum is cleared....Everything's tidied up by the mods and put in its box......Its turned into an entertainment thread........Time to give it up maybe ?
Lots for FD to do on sorting the refund issue but I think that's all that's going to happen..

 

[JiminyJickers]

One business day gone in the UK, haven't received a refund or even a response to my request. Hopefully tomorrow.

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

Can't definitively answer that but perhaps they simply don't think they've done anything "wrong" and see it as just another design decision. Perhaps they just don't give a damn! That's certainly the impression I got when I saw DB's retweet and read the writer's blog.

The people who bought into the game believing there was going to be a viable offline mode were certainly wronged. (myself included)

 

[GnGn]

I imagine from homosapiens, he doesn't like people. Hence the wish for offline.

So, wish to have an offline game = not liking people? I guess playing a single-player game and going for a walk or for a drink in a pub with your friends afterwards (and sharing/comparing details on your play sessions with them) does not constitute a social behavior? Oh yes, it's not done online with acquaintances or total strangers, it must be something awkward!

 

[Obsidian Ant]

If it saves a single position - where you are in the galaxy - then it will generate the entire star system around you on the fly... based on this position and the universe "seed".
Every time you spawn there, it will look the same. If you go elsewhere, this piece of the galaxy completely ceases to exist.
(it's a bit more involved but that's the principle)

Exactly that...sorry I was trying to make a (bad) joke of the situation regarding procedural generation. But yes - it all fits into small spaces, hence the lack of need for "powerful" servers.

Starbound does this too if I remember correctly...

 

[Zuikaku]

Can't definitively answer that but perhaps they simply don't think they've done anything "wrong" and see it as just another design decision. Perhaps they just don't give a damn! That's certainly the impression I got when I saw DB's retweet and read the writer's blog.

Unfortunately Elite Dangerous smells like Sim City spirit... such a dissappointment from the legend.

 

[Cutter]

Frontier: Elite 2 had millions of star systems and the entire game fit into the 500 kilo (not mega!) bytes of an Amiga. That's everything. Sound, graphics, code... and... the milky way.

It's how procedural generation works.
You don't compute every star or NPC actor. You compute the potential sum of the effects they might have if they were there.

Psyron,

What Gazz is saying is kilo as in kilobytes (kbs). Elite 2 was on one 3.5 inch floppy for the amiga computer.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier:_Elite_II

Looks like crap now, but that game still surpasses ED. ED will catch up, and that is what early backers are waiting for. We do not give a rats @ S S about online mode...solo or multiplayer, we just want a Elite 4. FYI, we waited longer for Elite 4 than DB and FD.

Cutter

 

[BazzaLB]

Select rare and exciting mission.... Collect cargo.... Prepare for takeoff... Door bell rings unexpectedly.... Next thing you know.. Mission failed, cargo now tagged as stolen, heavy fine. There is no pause in always online.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

OH PLEASE, YOU STOP!

Don't talk to me like this! Of course i know about PG, but you are forgetting the essential part of ED.
It's not only about PG! FD want to create a galaxy with real interactions, a galaxy that is dynamic!!
You can create a random world with PG but you can't create a dynamic galaxy based on PG alone. If you really want to create a dynamic world PG has its limits.
What FD want to create is a galaxy that changes over time. To create a galaxy with PG is one thing but to make it appear dynamic based on PG is completely another story - or you go with completely random behavior of the NPCs. But if you want to create a world where players and NPCs dynamically affect a world based on their current status then you get something that is very much like a neural network: A system that changes over time based on the signals passing through this system. It may be possible to create even this with PG, but this would mean a completely different kind of PG, much more complex, not at all comparable to what they have now.

Study some computer science and neurology and come back to me when done so!

Oh dear. Would you like a shovel?

I shall demonstrate how you create a dynamic galaxy using some events that can be scripted in say, LUA, and an implied database, it's not hard.

Seed generates procedural galaxy with stations, planets, stars and NPC's, this is all saved to a database with appropriate lookups.
Player then goes around in galaxy, computer simulates a basic economy and generates missions based on economy changes using fudge factors.
Player then takes on a bounty with a Named NPC who they have to hunt down and kill, they engage the NPC, but the NPC gets away and the mission fails. The database increments the rank of the NPC by one.
The next game hour, a newsflash appears in the station where the mission happened as well as the neighbouring stations alerting all pilots that the pirate such and such has preyed on a major cargo hauler and has made off with a large quantity of valuable goods, the database now updates his ship so next time he's in a bigger better ship.
Now the NPC no longer flies say, an eagle, but he's in a Viper.

Congratulations, I've just created a dynamic galaxy.

All of this can be achieved with some rules and code. There's nothing at all in what I've done which requires anything hand coded or neural or special, that's all simple code, rules, processes.

Please, stop digging, before you make this worse for yourself.

 

[vonFelty]

To be honest pretty much everything about offline has been contained to this thread..... And what it does show is the forums are still very active and Healthy and seem normal...
Most are still just enjoying the game and looking forward to Thursday...

Take a look outside guys ... ED Life is normal ... I think this is just going round and round until it just gets boring and the posts dry up...
I would have liked offline mode as much as anyone.... but I still love what I have and I wouldn't even consider a refund....In fact I will probably buy more addons..
I think the forum is cleared....Everything's tidied up by the mods and put in its box......Its turned into an entertainment thread........Time to give it up maybe ?
Lots for FD to do on sorting the refund issue but I think that's all that's going to happen..

Eh. I told a friend today that ED will be online only and he used an curse word and say he wouldn't be buying it. I just stated the facts that it was offline and didn't go into the part about how it was promised in the KS and so on.

Also the people on face book have all been saying that they won't be playing the game because it requires online connectivity all the time. People do not want to buy a single player game or one with pseudo multiplayer and have to support online all the time.

People don't like that in these modern times. I already have my copy and I don't think I will get a refund since I got ED for the Oculus Rift, but I can see people mad about it.

 

[joejett]

OH PLEASE, YOU STOP!
What FD want to create is a galaxy that changes over time. To create a galaxy with PG is one thing but to make it appear dynamic based on PG is completely another story - or you go with completely random behavior of blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Study some computer science and neurology and come back to me when done so!

Then they should've stated, prior to accepting donations, that they had a vision for the game that might preclude the possibility of always-offline-singe-player.

 

[moonsword]

Oh dear. Would you like a shovel?

I shall demonstrate how you create a dynamic galaxy using some pseudocode and a database, it's not hard.

Seed generates procedural galaxy with stations, planets, stars and NPC's, this is all saved to a database with appropriate lookups.
Player then goes around in galaxy, computer simulates a basic economy and generates missions based on economy changes using fudge factors.
Player then takes on a bounty with a Named NPC who they have to hunt down and kill, they engage the NPC, but the NPC gets away and the mission fails. The database increments the rank of the NPC by one.
The next game hour, a newsflash appears in the station where the mission happened as well as the neighbouring stations alerting all pilots that the pirate such and such has preyed on a major cargo hauler and has made off with a large quantity of valuable goods, the database now updates his ship so next time he's in a bigger better ship.
Now the NPC no longer flies say, an eagle, but he's in a Viper.

Congratulations, I've just created a dynamic galaxy.

All of this can be achieved with some rules and code. There's nothing at all in what I've done which requires anything hand coded or neural or special, that's all simple code, rules, processes.

Please, stop digging, before you make this worse for yourself.

*yawn* Look we have an expert

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

*yawn* Look we have an expert

I'm not even a skilled coder these days, my l33t skills are caked in rust, but I've spent enough time as of late helping people with their designs and their work at the very early stages to know damn well that all of this is essentially smoke and mirrors. We deserve a better explanation.