Occlusion Culling and the hardware survey: question to the tech comunity

[Morbad]

The variable is the personal bias response to such low framerates

Personally i'm not that fussed about it, for me it is playable, but others are more sensitive to the fact that they are getting only 30fps on rigs better than recommended specs

I was excited to have a GPU that can run Horizons at 5k (5120*2880) ultra on my 1440p 144Hz display cause four times the number of pixels as native is just enough to make the aliasing mostly go away. Then Odyssey comes along and I'm busted back down to native res, for worse performance!

Playable, sure. Acceptable? Not even close.

 

[Muetdhiver]

They are looking for a quick bandaid to score a "win".

Because the renderer problem they got it not going to be a quick fix away from doing a proper job.

 

[Northpin]

Nope, i dont think the performance issue nor the lighting issue are going to be fixed soon.
But hopefully they will be doing it by Autumn when the Console Launch is expected - assuming it will not get delayed.
Nor MS nor Sony will take a failed console launch...

 

[LKx]

Nope, i dont think the performance issue nor the lighting issue are going to be fixed soon.
But hopefully they will be doing it by Autumn when the Console Launch is expected - assuming it will not get delayed.
Nor MS nor Sony will take a failed console launch...

Yeah, considering they are planning to merge the clients for the autumn's console launch, i think they already know it will take them AT LEAST six months to get things right... and i fear that even that might be wishful thinking...

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Hi, i don't know anything about graphic rendering, so i might be totally wrong about this, but i'm a bit confused about their hardware survey when a lot are pointing out the alleged lack of optimizations and rendering issues with odyssey:

• no occlusion culling in the rendering
• excessively dark areas due to something happening with colors in the rendering process

So, i'm wondering what's the point of an hardware survey in those conditions, and my question is, since as i said i'm clueless about it, am i wrong and the lack of this occlusion culling might be not such a problem as it sounds it is?

Excellent question, this popped up into my mind straight after I watched the live stream where they asked for "more information". Was thinking of making a thread about it but thanks for doing this already

 

[hunvagy]

I was excited to have a GPU that can run Horizons at 5k (5120*2880) ultra on my 1440p 144Hz display cause four times the number of pixels as native is just enough to make the aliasing mostly go away. Then Odyssey comes along and I'm busted back down to native res, for worse performance!

Playable, sure. Acceptable? Not even close.

Especially with the horrible (and mostly non working) AA options we have.

 

[Scoob101]

Nope, i dont think the performance issue nor the lighting issue are going to be fixed soon.
But hopefully they will be doing it by Autumn when the Console Launch is expected - assuming it will not get delayed.
Nor MS nor Sony will take a failed console launch...

I think you're right that the optimisation work will take a hell of a lot longer than people want it to.

Unfortunately, the fallout from CP2077 and all the analysis after the event taught us is that platform holders are not at all interested at all in sub-par performance unless it gets to headline news levels of bad. There were lots of examples of other games which have been terrible performance-wise like GTA5 on the previous-gen (it was a cross-gen release)

I used to think that the certification process would do basic performance checks - but nope - there's a very clear line between platform testing (certification) and the studio QA testing the game.

 

[Morbad]

Especially with the horrible (and mostly non working) AA options we have.

Yeah, it's supersampling or bust.

 

[hunvagy]

Yeah, it's supersampling or bust.

Slightly off topic, but when my hardware can emulate a whole console with all bells and whistles at 2k internal res, I do expect a bit more from a 2014 game engine

 

[ferus]

I did notice one thing:

When I am flying in space in Horizons my GPU fans are quiet, there is not much GPU load.
When I touch down on a planet their RPM increases a lot.
But when I leave the planet and fly to space again the GPU load decreases again, the fans go quiet.
(and that's in 1440p with SS x1,25)

In Odyssey my GPU fans are only quiet when I start in space. When I land on a planet or at a station and the GPU load increases it never goes down even if I go back to space - or the main menu for that matter.
It seems to me that Odyssey is indeed rendering unnecessary things even in space.

 

[LoneTech]

While the culling is incomplete, it's simply not enough to explain the degree of slowdowns. They appear to have synchronisation issues resulting in a variety of wonderful features, such as lifts remaining low level of detail models several seconds after walking inside them (there's not much reason for that version to exist; it looks like crap if you can see it at all) and planets winking out completely to black as you approach them (again a LOD threshold, but not falling back to the one that can be rendered). I've also once hit a threshold while approaching a planet where it snapped to full brightness for a frame or two before going back to night. These are things appearing out of order; those that are unnecessarily forced into order instead cause delays. I suspect someone sold someone else on the hype of the instant loads for some generation of consoles, and thus claimed it was a waste of time to try getting it working well.

The current version of Odyssey is way too aggressively unloading detail levels. I have 16 GiB VRAM and 32 GiB main RAM; what precisely does it need to reuse memory for to swap out the lift model? And it has user interface sequencing issues as well; you're not allowed to open the lift door until the taxi has loaded, and that opening itself is a multi step procedure for no reason at all. Yes I sound repetitive going on about the lift. Fdev made the choice to have that lift be the core unavoidable thing in all of Odyssey. Also, we have interconnected menus that should not be (e.g. cancelled a taxi? now all taxi calls start out with a confirmation that you really mean to cancel). I've been stuck in a loop where trying to talk to Apex led to a screen telling me Missions were unavailable. The veneer over the menu system is thin.

 

[hunvagy]

While the culling is incomplete, it's simply not enough to explain the degree of slowdowns. They appear to have synchronisation issues resulting in a variety of wonderful features, such as lifts remaining low level of detail models several seconds after walking inside them (there's not much reason for that version to exist; it looks like crap if you can see it at all) and planets winking out completely to black as you approach them (again a LOD threshold, but not falling back to the one that can be rendered). I've also once hit a threshold while approaching a planet where it snapped to full brightness for a frame or two before going back to night. These are things appearing out of order; those that are unnecessarily forced into order instead cause delays. I suspect someone sold someone else on the hype of the instant loads for some generation of consoles, and thus claimed it was a waste of time to try getting it working well.

The current version of Odyssey is way too aggressively unloading detail levels. I have 16 GiB VRAM and 32 GiB main RAM; what precisely does it need to reuse memory for to swap out the lift model? And it has user interface sequencing issues as well; you're not allowed to open the lift door until the taxi has loaded, and that opening itself is a multi step procedure for no reason at all. Yes I sound repetitive going on about the lift. Fdev made the choice to have that lift be the core unavoidable thing in all of Odyssey. Also, we have interconnected menus that should not be (e.g. cancelled a taxi? now all taxi calls start out with a confirmation that you really mean to cancel). I've been stuck in a loop where trying to talk to Apex led to a screen telling me Missions were unavailable. The veneer over the menu system is thin.

Also I have no idea what uncompressed monsters those textures have to be, that you see them load on GDDR5. I watched an advert load for almost a minute after loading into a concourse from main menu.

 

[Lance Corrimal]

Nope, i dont think the performance issue nor the lighting issue are going to be fixed soon.
But hopefully they will be doing it by Autumn when the Console Launch is expected - assuming it will not get delayed.
Nor MS nor Sony will take a failed console launch...

cyberpunk 2076 just called, they would like to get their epic fail back.

 

[BluePilot]

I'm pretty sure it is not just the culling, but it has to be a big part. I went back, wiped my graphic settings again, and went with High, with the only change being ground textures to ultra and switching OFF blur. So it shouldn't impact space, right? Ryzen 7 2700X, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM Took off from a platform. So far so good, actual Horizons style 100+ frame rates. Fly over to a Coriolis. Arrive at Coriolis from the back 70fps. Go to door and face inside, where the concourse is in the back.. 50fps.

This really sounds like a memory leak somewhere to me.

 

[dannysquid]

I would have thought with settlements, occlusion culling would be less of an issue than LOD. It's all very well having 200fps standing by a perimeter wall, but if you jump 50ft in the air and see the whole thing from above and get 10fps then that change is going to be annoying in a twitchy shooter or just add more calculations than you need. Would it take more frames to calculate which chairs are visible through the window in that Habitation area on the other side of the map than it would be just to render very low detail version of them? No expert, just asking!

It's not a corridor layout like Doom where you can steer people into carefully calculated views.

 

[hunvagy]

I would have thought with settlements, occlusion culling would be less of an issue than LOD. It's all very well having 200fps standing by a perimeter wall, but if you jump 50ft in the air and see the whole thing from above and get 10fps then that change is going to be annoying in a twitchy shooter or just add more calculations than you need. Would it take more frames to calculate which chairs are visible through the window in that Habitation area on the other side of the map than it would be just to render very low detail version of them? No expert, just asking!

It's not a corridor layout like Doom where you can steer people into carefully calculated views.

It's not just the characters though. Right now we suspect ED renders everything. So say you jump up, look down and the game renders every shot glass, plate, cutlery, bedsheet, their shadows, everything. Even though you don't see 95% of it.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

And the Concourse is not even a good datapoint anymore, as you don't have to do FPS there. CZs in big settlements with lots of actors (PC or NPC), large tourism hubs, that's where the chugging really begins.

Would you be so kind as to help explain how you find these CZs, and I will go there to test one also? I have been to settlements, etc., but everytime I talk to the lady who gives out combat missions (I think it's the right person) they say "Oh, nothing for you today" so I must be in the wrong sectors?

 

[hunvagy]

Would you be so kind as to help explain how you find these CZs, and I will go there to test one also? I have been to settlements, etc., but everytime I talk to the lady who gives out combat missions (I think it's the right person) they say "Oh, nothing for you today" so I must be in the wrong sectors?

They are pretty easy to find, the planet that has ground CZs has a two giant yellow clashing swords on it. You don't need a mission, just find the icon, the navigation should have the CZ in the list. Fly there and when you get close enough, you get the option to choose a side.

War state in the system helps, that always generates conflict zones if I recall correctly.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

They are pretty easy to find, the planet that has ground CZs has a two giant yellow clashing swords on it. You don't need a mission, just find the icon, the navigation should have the CZ in the list. Fly there and when you get close enough, you get the option to choose a side.

Ahhh, so that's what that icon means ... jolly good - thank you Hunvagy.

 

[dannysquid]

It's not just the characters though. Right now we suspect ED renders everything. So say you jump up, look down and the game renders every shot glass, plate, cutlery, bedsheet, their shadows, everything. Even though you don't see 95% of it.

With stuff like that I'd have thought (again, no expert) it would be quicker to just not draw small things that are X distance away than do lots of ray-casting to determine which shot glass is visible. So LODs rather than occlusion culling. It used to be that rendering was always the most expensive thing (in my ancient days coding this sort of thing) but I'm not sure that's the case any more.