Oddyssey Abandoned In Favor of Colonisation

[anShpan]

The problem, IMHO, is not about the balance, but broken actions exchange between in-ship and on-foot "worlds". Basically those on-foot can only shoot a ship with firearms and ship can only respond with unguided weapons, like dumbfire or flack launchers (BTW former are very effective from 1-2 kilometers). That is all the actions exchange possible. Personally, no matter how hard I tried, I can't find no balance nor immersion in that exchange.

BTW, taking into account that after intro of PP2.0 that is pretty typical that settlement in power-down are filled not only with scavengers but with clean-status armed(!) guards it would be really immersive to know who will be a target of ship's weapon before shot and other way than kill bounty issued on me after.

Not even dreaming about S&R of PowerPlay Person or simply rescue somebody from settlement under pirate attack with a ship.

 

[metatheurgist]

I have to wonder if PP agents on the ground is just a cack-handed attempt to fix people in ships cheesing ground missions.

 

[Frankymole]

• Releasing MVP and then leaving it for a few good years (or never touching it again, see smuggling or piracy gameplay) is a pretty standard modus operandi for fdev, so nothing new there.

What is MVP?

 

[Vedmo]

What is MVP?

Minimum Viable Product

 

[Frankymole]

It's cool to hear that you share the criticism about their tendency to abandon features. However, I think we’re interpreting Frontier’s recent efforts differently. While PP and the Thgargoid war have seen some attention, I wouldn’t call them fully fleshed out. PP is still niche,

Is it?

Everyone and his dog was playing it on Twitch. Like the Thargoid war, it was incredibly rare to find any streamer player who was not doing the new PP all the time.

You want niche, look at CQC.

 

[Frankymole]

Minimum Viable Product

Don't think that applies in this case. They're providing way above the minimum.

Before Odyssey, most of us speculated that "space legs" would be walking around a few shops, in a station, and talking to your fellow players in the bar. Not missions and combat zones and exobiology and other complexity.

 

[Kira Goto]

And that's exactly the point, because most Odyssey missions aren't, only the ones that specifically tell you to go somewhere and kill the invading scavs or whatever enemy is there. As Darkfyre99 says, most missions can be done without killing everyone, but if your mindset is on the FPS "kill everyone" pattern then that's fine as long as you can actually achieve that, go for your life, but that's mostly a choice not a requirement.

I'd also argue that the "Bash anarchy settlements for 'optimal material grind'" stick waved by YouTube [channels] contributed a lot to the image that it's all shooting and not much else.

Though I haven't done the stealth and/or stealing mission types (and currently have no intention to), I also have not really made settlement massacres any particular part of my playstyle on either account. Only done them on one occasion where it was justified by RP (well, justified to me, those who found themselves on the other end would have argued differently). Besides shooting scavengers at reactivation missions there wasn't much shooting to be done with how I played, even if some of it was setup for the high intensity ground CZs.

I would say the main purpose of the engineering loop still seems to be toward those conflict zones, but of course it has its utilities in the other aspects as well. If, upgrading an Artemis is largely redundant when there's nothing angry at you in exploration unless you're hopping around a spire site (which are currently all inactive). (And as FPS experiences go, frankly, I'd just play other games for it - don't find the Odyssey gunplay or movement very engaging, especially those unbelievably slow globs of plasma pretending to be sniper rounds, nevermind the Oppressor... the settlement assaults outside of CZs and the other mission types look a lot more interesting but I'm sadly not really into them.)

 

[Jmanis]

FD never capitalise on, expand and "keep fresh" their existing mechanics, only introduce new mechanics.

Megaship and outpost interactions, xeno biopsies, dangerous cargo, reputation, USS (both surface and space), criminal careers, military careers, smuggling, chain and dynamic missions, tip offs, rare goods... they all welcome Odyssey to the club with open arms.

Edit: oh, scenarios too!

 

[rootsrat]

FD never capitalise on, expand and "keep fresh" their existing mechanics, only introduce new mechanics.

That's not true at all. We've seen many first iterations overhauled over the 10 years. During Odyssey DLC - twice so far: Thargoid War, which did in fact added quite a few on foot activities, on top of overhauling the main system; and Powerplay, which added less new gameplay, but was a massive overhaul nonetheless.

Earlier we've had overhauls of:

• mining
• exploration
• trading
• BGS (long term and slow but still)
• C&P
• Engineering (x2)

There are still plenty of stuff that could be expanded on, but to say fdev never refreshes their game mechanics is frankly not true.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Earlier we've had overhauls of:

• mining
• exploration
• trading
• BGS (long term and slow but still)
• C&P

There are still plenty of stuff that could be expanded on, but to say fdev never refreshes their game mechanics is frankly not true.

...yes but at least 3 (if not four) of the above IMHO have not improved QoL/gameplay experience to the players' base (i.e. core mining LTD/VO nerfed / killed most of PvP-piracy, profitable trading is reduced to 3-4 commodities [agronomic treatment/gold&silver/bauxite/...], C&P is borked with PP2 complexities..).

Engineering rework has been, on the other side, well received (besides storage needs to be upsized to at least 2000 items, and bartender to min 5000).

 

[rootsrat]

...yes but at least 3 (if not four) of the above IMHO have not improved QoL/gameplay experience to the players' base

That's an opinion though. Anyone can have one and it's ok. It has nothing to do with the context of my post too

It also does not change the fact that FDEV did indeed keep their game refreshed and they did update many gameplay loops - which was a factually incorrect statement I was referring to.

Engineering rework

Ah yes of course, we've also had two (!) engineering reworks too.

 

[Jmanis]

That's not true at all. We've seen many first iterations overhauled over the 10 years. During Odyssey DLC - twice so far: Thargoid War, which did in fact added quite a few on foot activities, on top of overhauling the main system;

Honestly? Calling the Thargoid War a capitalisation on Odyssey is a bit of a long bow to draw. It's like calling the Thargoid War capitalisation on the game, because the game existed. It's such a broad overreach of the term.

The Thargoid War in and of itself was the feature, and it was brand new, just like FCs, just like Odyssey.

...and Powerplay, which added less new gameplay, but was a massive overhaul nonetheless....

Earlier we've had overhauls of:

• mining
• exploration
• trading
• BGS (long term and slow but still)
• C&P

Overhauls are not, to use my specific terminology, "capitalising on, expanding or 'keeping fresh' your existing mechanics". They're a replacement of those mechanics, or just a new system outright because they're not fit for purpose.

Even then, the things you call out still have major issues, C&P in particular which is not far off this at the moment.

To specifically call out a really great example of this; the Thargoid War. You know what would've been great capitalisation of existing mechanics? Not using all these AX-specific modules... using subsurface missile launchers to get the pods, not the "I can't believe it's not a subsurface missile". For all intents, they're now distinct systems that just happen to use distinct modules that are very similar. It's not capitalisation on existing mechanics; it's sheer duplication and an awful, kludgy implementation... a major own-goal tbh.

FD don't use the things in the game available to them.

There are still plenty of stuff that could be expanded on, but to say fdev never refreshes their game mechanics is frankly not true.

To be very clear here, I never said "refresh"... I said "keep fresh"... that is... hey, we have mining. It gives us seismic charges and subsurface missiles. Oh look, now we have Crystalline Structures in space... wouldn't it be good if cracking them with a seismic charge was an option. Nope? Oh well. Thargoid War was a great opportunity to employ the Recon Limpet... but nope.

Refresh is a change to the existing mechanics.... "keep fresh" means to make sure your existing mechanics stay relevant within the new features (looking at you here, SCO/Standard FSD). These are two very different things. It's all about the synthesis of your existing mechanics into new features, not retooling every time you make a new feature. It goes a long way to demonstrating the lack of vision.

Engineering rework has been, on the other side, well received (besides storage needs to be upsized to at least 2000 items, and bartender to min 5000).

The HGE change is the best exploitation of accidental gaslighting i've ever seen

 

[rootsrat]

Honestly? Calling the Thargoid War a capitalisation on Odyssey is a bit of a long bow to draw. It's like calling the Thargoid War capitalisation on the game, because the game existed. It's such a broad overreach of the term.

The Thargoid War in and of itself was the feature, and it was brand new, just like FCs, just like Odyssey.

Overhauls are not, to use my specific terminology, "capitalising on, expanding or 'keeping fresh' your existing mechanics". They're a replacement of those mechanics, or just a new system outright because they're not fit for purpose.

Even then, the things you call out still have major issues, C&P in particular which is not far off this at the moment.

To specifically call out a really great example of this; the Thargoid War. You know what would've been great capitalisation of existing mechanics? Not using all these AX-specific modules... using subsurface missile launchers to get the pods, not the "I can't believe it's not a subsurface missile". For all intents, they're now distinct systems that just happen to use distinct modules that are very similar. It's not capitalisation on existing mechanics; it's sheer duplication and an awful, kludgy implementation... a major own-goal tbh.

FD don't use the things in the game available to them.

To be very clear here, I never said "refresh"... I said "keep fresh"... that is... hey, we have mining. It gives us seismic charges and subsurface missiles. Oh look, now we have Crystalline Structures in space... wouldn't it be good if cracking them with a seismic charge was an option. Nope? Oh well. Thargoid War was a great opportunity to employ the Recon Limpet... but nope.

Refresh is a change to the existing mechanics.... "keep fresh" means to make sure your existing mechanics stay relevant within the new features (looking at you here, SCO/Standard FSD). These are two very different things. It's all about the synthesis of your existing mechanics into new features, not retooling every time you make a new feature. It goes a long way to demonstrating the lack of vision.


The HGE change is the best exploitation of accidental gaslighting i've ever seen

Ok fair enough, I misunderstood the context of your post then.

 

[Knuttin Atoll]

Is it?

Everyone and his dog was playing it on Twitch. Like the Thargoid war, it was incredibly rare to find any streamer player who was not doing the new PP all the time.

You want niche, look at CQC.

I guess it depends on what the motivation of the player is to engage in PP2.0. Is it:

1. Progression grind to unlock PP modules
2. Genuine interest in the PP mechanics and play it as it was intended without 1. playing into it at all

I know I'm firmly in the first category... and as I was finishing my weekly assignments this week (players with a completionist OCD will likely engage just for this alone) with not much else at all in terms of merit grinding done, the game told me that I'm #380ish of Kaine's supporters, that doesn't sound like much at all when considering total player numbers. If it wasn't for the module I would've already unpledged, as PP2.0 doesn't offer truly new gameplay. Just some repackaged existing gameplay loops with a basic progression system. They didn't even expand on new artwork for the existing powers, and the paintjobs for power ships seem to be taken from the Vibrant Arx skins range...

Don't think that applies in this case. They're providing way above the minimum.

Before Odyssey, most of us speculated that "space legs" would be walking around a few shops, in a station, and talking to your fellow players in the bar. Not missions and combat zones and exobiology and other complexity.

Everyone has different expectations, sure, but I expected more diverse and deeper on-foot mechanics.

• Station concourses being larger than one room, more diverse based on station type, more interaction (you can't even jump there! let alone having a shoot out with local police/gangs etc.), certainly for ground stations the ability to leave it planetside on-foot would've been kinda nice.
• Horizons settlements/locations were not upgraded at all with on-foot content
• Odyssey planetary POIs are very barebones with very basic scripted NPC spawns
• Not even basic ship interiors (as in, the cockpit), instead we got the placeholder-like blue-circle-of-immersion.
• No space feet (we got ground-feet only) unless you glitch the game into it. No EVA in a space game isn't great.
• Suit and weapon choice is severely lacking, and engineering/module options is very basic. Was never expanded on in almost 4 years now, in true Frontier fashion.
• Interior spaces (FC, settlements, concourses) appear to be built from a rather basic, shared asset set. Everything looks the same everywhere. Like a Lego set collection.
• No interactivity with NPCs beyond mission giving/completion. No ability to talk with NPCs. 20 y/o Bethesda games offered the ability to talk yourself out of a situation. None here.
• Even 27 y/o Metal Gear Solid (yes, the Playstation One game) is running circles around the stealth mechanics in Elite, which often involve waiting for minutes (!) in order to avoid aggro-ing NPCs. Too many glitches with NPC behaviour means it's often just easier/quicker to murder the entire settlement to get stuff done.
• Remember when Exobio had the minigame during the early access phase? That was never replaced with something else in its place to make the exo gameloop a little more engaging beyond 'hold button for seconds x 3'.
• The very basic ground-CZ set up feels very arcadey with all the blue circles and ... why? Gameplay design from the 90s.

I'm deliberately not going into the more advanced ideas of what-could've-been-included, nor the absolute technical state of it even now, with performance improvements over the years being achieved by aggressively culling visual detail/quality.

MVP is spot on when it comes to Odyssey.

 

[Knuttin Atoll]

To specifically call out a really great example of this; the Thargoid War. You know what would've been great capitalisation of existing mechanics? Not using all these AX-specific modules... using subsurface missile launchers to get the pods, not the "I can't believe it's not a subsurface missile". For all intents, they're now distinct systems that just happen to use distinct modules that are very similar. It's not capitalisation on existing mechanics; it's sheer duplication and an awful, kludgy implementation... a major own-goal tbh.

This design choice is what eventually made me stop engaging with the war entirely. Way too many one-trick-pony modules, with inconsistent ways to unlock/obtain them to boot.

In a meta kind of way it fits so well into our modern consumerist throw-away culture though, lol.

 

[Jmanis]

• No interactivity with NPCs beyond mission giving/completion. No ability to talk with NPCs. 20 y/o Bethesda games offered the ability to talk yourself out of a situation. None here.

Tangent, but HOLY HECK was the opportunity to roll T2 NPCs and commoditise reputation missed in this. Instead, it's just a glorified double-or-nothing gamble.

The on-foot contacts in stations and in bases were prime opportunity to have a personal rep system, where sure, every man and their dog in the Federation wants you dead, except this one guy in a Federal backwater, who you did the righty by many times gone by, and would begrudgingly call in a major favour to get just enough heat off you just this once so you can go somewhere without being shot in the face.

Or maybe, thanks to your allied rep, your regular contact can hook you up every now and then with a primo G5 engineered piece of kit from a small selection, "just as thanks for your ongoing support", or maybe they heard a rumor of an undiscovered something in a small, distant region of space. Or maybe, they just happen to have a large shipment of Kamitra Cigars on hand, which they'll pass on to you for a good price.

Then the engineers could be a source of very specific and likely difficult activities, which help curry favour with them in a variety of ways.

Oh well.

EDIT: To the rest of your post... Odyssey delivered no surprises as far as I'm concerned. It was always going to be "the space game, but on foot", and it's exactly what we got.. MVP does sum it up nicely.

 

[Cosmo]

Everyone has different expectations, sure, but I expected more diverse and deeper on-foot mechanics.

1. Station concourses being larger than one room, more diverse based on station type, more interaction (you can't even jump there! let alone having a shoot out with local police/gangs etc.), certainly for ground stations the ability to leave it planetside on-foot would've been kinda nice.
2. Horizons settlements/locations were not upgraded at all with on-foot content
3. Odyssey planetary POIs are very barebones with very basic scripted NPC spawns
4. Not even basic ship interiors (as in, the cockpit), instead we got the placeholder-like blue-circle-of-immersion.
5. No space feet (we got ground-feet only) unless you glitch the game into it. No EVA in a space game isn't great.
6. Suit and weapon choice is severely lacking, and engineering/module options is very basic. Was never expanded on in almost 4 years now, in true Frontier fashion.
7. Interior spaces (FC, settlements, concourses) appear to be built from a rather basic, shared asset set. Everything looks the same everywhere. Like a Lego set collection.
8. No interactivity with NPCs beyond mission giving/completion. No ability to talk with NPCs. 20 y/o Bethesda games offered the ability to talk yourself out of a situation. None here.
9. Even 27 y/o Metal Gear Solid (yes, the Playstation One game) is running circles around the stealth mechanics in Elite, which often involve waiting for minutes (!) in order to avoid aggro-ing NPCs. Too many glitches with NPC behaviour means it's often just easier/quicker to murder the entire settlement to get stuff done.
10. Remember when Exobio had the minigame during the early access phase? That was never replaced with something else in its place to make the exo gameloop a little more engaging beyond 'hold button for seconds x 3'.
11. The very basic ground-CZ set up feels very arcadey with all the blue circles and ... why? Gameplay design from the 90s.

Seconded. Exobio is fine without a mini-game imo. They sell more suits via cosmetics. Those should be in-game too with specs.

I'm deliberately not going into the more advanced ideas of what-could've-been-included, nor the absolute technical state of it even now, with performance improvements over the years being achieved by aggressively culling visual detail/quality.

Right, higher graphics settings should be optional, not removed from the settings.

MVP is spot on when it comes to Odyssey.

Fdev has gone well beyond the initial MVP at launch. Lots of stuff has been added and improved. On foot, Concourse got few improvements though and I agree with your suggestions.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

...profitable trading is reduced to 3-4 commodities [agronomic treatment/gold&silver/bauxite/...]

Personally I prefer Cryolite and Pyrophyllite, but to each their own...

 

[Darkfyre99]

I guess it depends on what the motivation of the player is to engage in PP2.0. Is it:

1. Progression grind to unlock PP modules
2. Genuine interest in the PP mechanics and play it as it was intended without 1. playing into it at all

I know I'm firmly in the first category... and as I was finishing my weekly assignments this week (players with a completionist OCD will likely engage just for this alone) with not much else at all in terms of merit grinding done, the game told me that I'm #380ish of Kaine's supporters, that doesn't sound like much at all when considering total player numbers. If it wasn't for the module I would've already unpledged, as PP2.0 doesn't offer truly new gameplay. Just some repackaged existing gameplay loops with a basic progression system. They didn't even expand on new artwork for the existing powers, and the paintjobs for power ships seem to be taken from the Vibrant Arx skins range...

Everyone has different expectations, sure, but I expected more diverse and deeper on-foot mechanics.

• Station concourses being larger than one room, more diverse based on station type, more interaction (you can't even jump there! let alone having a shoot out with local police/gangs etc.), certainly for ground stations the ability to leave it planetside on-foot would've been kinda nice.
• Horizons settlements/locations were not upgraded at all with on-foot content
• Odyssey planetary POIs are very barebones with very basic scripted NPC spawns
• Not even basic ship interiors (as in, the cockpit), instead we got the placeholder-like blue-circle-of-immersion.
• No space feet (we got ground-feet only) unless you glitch the game into it. No EVA in a space game isn't great.
• Suit and weapon choice is severely lacking, and engineering/module options is very basic. Was never expanded on in almost 4 years now, in true Frontier fashion.
• Interior spaces (FC, settlements, concourses) appear to be built from a rather basic, shared asset set. Everything looks the same everywhere. Like a Lego set collection.
• No interactivity with NPCs beyond mission giving/completion. No ability to talk with NPCs. 20 y/o Bethesda games offered the ability to talk yourself out of a situation. None here.
• Even 27 y/o Metal Gear Solid (yes, the Playstation One game) is running circles around the stealth mechanics in Elite, which often involve waiting for minutes (!) in order to avoid aggro-ing NPCs. Too many glitches with NPC behaviour means it's often just easier/quicker to murder the entire settlement to get stuff done.
• Remember when Exobio had the minigame during the early access phase? That was never replaced with something else in its place to make the exo gameloop a little more engaging beyond 'hold button for seconds x 3'.
• The very basic ground-CZ set up feels very arcadey with all the blue circles and ... why? Gameplay design from the 90s.

I'm deliberately not going into the more advanced ideas of what-could've-been-included, nor the absolute technical state of it even now, with performance improvements over the years being achieved by aggressively culling visual detail/quality.

While I agree, in principle, with pretty much everything you wrote here, I disagree with this assertation:

MVP is spot on when it comes to Odyssey.

I've tried a few games that were genuinely a minimum viable product over the years, and I wouldn't describe Odyssey as that. On a scale of one to ten, where one is minimum viable product, and ten is the the best game ever, I'd rate Odyssey on-foot gameplay around a six on average. Not the best, but not terrible either. Given that I primarily play the game for the spaceships, having the on-foot portions of the game acceptably average is fine with me.

 

[Rebel Yell]

That's an opinion though. Anyone can have one and it's ok. It has nothing to do with the context of my post too

...and BGS! https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...t-for-fdev-communication.632031/post-10524135