On Improving The Safety of Commanders In Game

[Cmdr Esteban]

We need a chosen one to bring balance to the galaxy.

 

[Valorin]

I have no sympathy for people who min\max their jump range at the expense of defense or anything else in a game with open and unrestricted PvP. If you want to do that, you should not be in Open. Sure, escorting is great and I would love to see more of that sort of gameplay, but in the end, the onus is on the individual to prepare even if it means you get 10ly less per jump.

Okay.

 

[Bigmaec]

That's because FDev has provided no reason to play the good guy. You can't claim enough in bounties to make rebuys back, and it's just not as fun.

At least you give good build advices on reddit to survive. Don't you wanna lead the good guys for a while?

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I don't even understand what being a "good guy" would entail in open.

When I asked about what the fleet "combat" escort did I learned they mostly protect the paper airplanes in PG from NPCs. I'm not even that good at PvP, but that sounds very dull and frustrating. I didn't buy an mmo(ish) to primarily interact with NPCs. And hand holding other players who can't do basic stuff doesn't really seem like interaction to me either, although I actually do occasionally do that because I'm 4% carebear.

And in open you can't keep the paper airplanes alive. You just can't. There is no way. Maybe every once in a while kill a ganker, but probably never unless they suck. And you'd die a lot.

I beat my head against the powerplay mechanics for two months before I quit. I will never play ED in an uphill-not-fun mode again.

 

[Jonuss]

I don't even understand what being a "good guy" would entail in open.

When I asked about what the fleet "combat" escort did I learned they mostly protect the paper airplanes in PG from NPCs. I'm not even that good at PvP, but that sounds simultaneously dull and frustrating. I didn't buy an mmo(ish) to primarily interact with NPCs. And hand holding other players who can't do basic stuff doesn't really seem like interaction to me either, although I actually do occasionally do that because I'm 4% carebear.

And in open you can't keep the paper airplanes alive. You just can't. There is no way. Maybe every once in a while kill a ganker, but probably never unless they suck. And you'd die a lot.

I beat my head against the powerplay mechanics for two months before I quit. I will never play ED in an uphill-not-fun mode again.

And this is why people turn to being "bad guys". Because it's more fun than whatever alternative there is as a "good guy". Because you end up getting dozens of massive salt posts, because it's fun to just randomly do "bad" .

 

[Bigmaec]

I don't even understand what being a "good guy" would entail in open.

When I asked about what the fleet "combat" escort did I learned they mostly protect the paper airplanes in PG from NPCs. I'm not even that good at PvP, but that sounds simultaneously dull and frustrating. I didn't buy an mmo(ish) to primarily interact with NPCs. And hand holding other players who can't do basic stuff doesn't really seem like interaction to me either, although I actually do occasionally do that because I'm 4% carebear.

And in open you can't keep the paper airplanes alive. You just can't. There is no way. Maybe every once in a while kill a ganker, but probably never unless they suck. And you'd die a lot.

I beat my head against the powerplay mechanics for two months before I quit. I will never play ED in an uphill-not-fun mode again.

I did some "CAP" at the Gnosis event, went there in my FdL and attacked ryan_m, yamato & co. Although I obviously stood no chance, the time it takes to kill a 3000 mj FdL is considerable, even for a wing of four. I equipped my FdL with phasing lasers to annoy them at least a bit and cause some hull damage, as the nearest starport was several hundred LY away. Didn't kill one of them, of course, but for the five minutes or so I lasted, no other explorers could be ganked. Doing that in a wing of four would up the time even more. So while you can't defend the explorers/traders, you can buy them time, and you can theoretically take some of them out. If all the top pilots are on the bad side, chances are bad though. Oh, and for me, I got a lot of experience against wings in that one. And two rebuys

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

But the folks that INSPIRED those people to be in that particular barrel of fish can’t seem to be bothered. Too many just want to sing the old song and dance bemoaning ‘the griefers.’

Do we not see a problem there? Too many of us have simply thrown our hands in the air and given up when in truth the solutions are not that difficult.

Indeed.

Private group.

Solved.

 

[Riverside]

Indeed.

Private group.

Solved.

This does seem to be the obvious solution. Perhaps this is the aim of the attacks, to act as an advert for private groups?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This does seem to be the obvious solution. Perhaps this is the aim of the attacks, to act as an advert for private groups?

They are doing a bang up job showing why Open only stuff is a really bad idea.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I once read a story about a Commander who flew out to the Beagle Point area, and then called for a fuel rescue (not to the Fuel Rats, some other group).

That Commander flew all the way out there, and then waited until the rescuer arrived, and then very promptly destroyed the rescuer.

That's what SDC does. They need awesome CMDRs like those in Fuel rats or Corgies and through them they want to draw attention to themselves. As they did now. DWE2 is a great event, so it will draw them out of the woodwork, trying to piggyback some attention of them.

They're a sideshow. Always were, always will be.

I'll be watching for it, and I sincerely hope that Frontier restores no one.

Not because of anything malicious on my part, but because everyone on this Expedition, especially the organizers, should have known.

They know, but what are they going to do? Ask every 11,000 CMDRs if they are a sleeper agent?

Frontier won't restore CMDRs who fly into the sun. But if some gankiewanker goes all the way to Beagle Point, destroys a CMDR, it will be glorious when Frontier just reinstates the CMDR. All that effort of flying across the galaxy, and all they can achieve is a slight inconvenience.

I could be a DW2 admin.

[haha]

No, you really couldn't.

 

[NeilF]

This is a balance issue, isn’t it? The difference between Elite and, say, COD, is that in COD you are expecting to get killed fairly often, and the game is balanced to make virtual deaths little more than a slight inconvenience. In Elite, though, as you rightly point out, virtual death is much more inconvenient to the victim than the attacker. The way insurance works is a large part of the problem, but for a trader, there is loss of cargo, maybe of a mission too, and players with limited credits don’t enjoy it. I very much suspect this is one of the reasons why Frontier have opened up the financial taps lately, because the more liquid a player is, the less they are likely to resent being ganked or pirated-it just becomes part of the game.

Ultimately, people will only play the game if it is fun. Piracy is enough fun that plenty of players do it and there is no easy way of stopping it, not that Frontier want to do it anyway . One solution would therefore be to tackle the other end of the problem and make it so that players who are clean and get killed by other players in PVP get a full ship and cargo refund (but are maybe shifted ten jumps or more further away from their destination to stop folk running really stupid risks). In the case of the expedition that sort of solution wouldn’t be difficult to deal with and the players that get ganked get a chance to learn from it and have a better chance of survival the next time.

Just to pipe up here with a comment or two...

Piracy and mindless destruction should not be confused. Piracy should be about stealing cargo etc, and the destruction of a victim should generally be a bad outcome for a pirate.

The game mechanics need to orchestrate the desired outcomes. So piracy mechanics should allow the stealing of cargo in a fun/fair way. And PvP gameplay should be offered and orchestrated so it's fun and easy to find. After four years PvP is still not even approaching this position.

Repeat illegal destruction should be heavily penalised so as to rein it in. And this includes in all systems except true anarchy government systems. So yes, it should be illegal to destroy other CMDRs in the 99.9% of the systems in the galaxy where it's currently ignored. ie: "No Government" should just mean no security, NOT that crime are not reported! The illegal destruction of another CMDR at Beagle Point should not be ignored!

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

And this is why people turn to being "bad guys". Because it's more fun than whatever alternative there is as a "good guy". Because you end up getting dozens of massive salt posts, because it's fun to just randomly do "bad" .

I'd prefer my bad to be not random, but this game sure makes it hard to do anything cohesive or anything spontaneous. Hell I can't even find anyone to rob. Or when I do, they're so completely and utterly clueless it's not even fun (the in game training is atrocious).

The salt posts aren't part of the fun for me, that's more like a car crash I can't look away from, some I can barely comprehend.

Zarek Null is literally the only plot in this game that's entertaining to me. At all. The only plot in the whole ED galaxy that made me laugh or care was some dude making an utterly hilarious caricature, and he's reviled by so many players, which just leaves me confused. How can you not find it funny?

Powerplay plot is basically just players calling each other names over 9 thin, often contradictory character sketches. (The mechanics even worse than the plot)

Module shopping makes PP tags useless (even misleading) for trying to have plot meaningful encounters, and the clunky UI makes the Squadron tags too slow to be of use before deciding how to comms.

The BGS procedural generated stuff in dock is just an irritation (more nonsense to wade through in a cluttered UI).

Gal net wholly disconnected from actual game play.

CGs mostly cookie cutter and also in conflict with other "plot" (e.g. aisling commanders hauling imp slaves for previous imp vs. fed)

There are a few drops of plot here and there (new codex KB isn't bad, sometimes the message series you find 13747349823748328 ly out at mat farming sites have plot in a sort of random fallout 4 way) but not much to go on.

Blah blah blah. Another boring list from some ED rando.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Piracy should be about stealing cargo etc, and the destruction of a victim should generally be a bad outcome for a pirate [...] game mechanics need to orchestrate the desired outcomes. So piracy mechanics should allow the stealing of cargo in a fun/fair way. And PvP gameplay should be offered and orchestrated so it's fun and easy to find. After four years PvP is still not even approaching this position.

You are correct that CMDR destruction is not the desired outcome for a pirate, barring rival pirates and would-be police.

The thing about piracy loot is that the cargo is just a token by which to have a meaningful/entertaining/funny/whatever encounter with another player that isn't just "hey hai guys let's wing up and move some bits from one station to another" or "hey let's try to murder each other". And have a bit of roleplay identity. Most CMDRs I play with care much more about materials than about credits/commodities. For an experienced player, any activity that doesn't have fun value is worthless since void opal mining/R2R/passenger runs/etc pay overwhelmingly better.

I've tried reverse piracy, by which I interdicted a player and "forced" them to scoop up and deliver narcotics to a station and sell on black market. That was novel but ended up being mostly a training exercise for the baby seal. It has potential if I can find less squishy victims, especially if I can direct them to a large station that might scan them so they're forced to pilot well and quickly through that mailslot or die. Maybe that's griefing but drug mules are a thing and I'm a pirate right? For the record on that one I was in a cobra with no engineering except FSD reset dumbfires which I never even used.

I'm also considering demanding cargo and then just dropping mines around it after they jettison, to see if they'll scoop it (not allowing limpets). Or even simply blowing it up in front of them. Which when I say it sounds sadistic, but would be valid role play (i'm a filthy rich pirate who just wants to watch the world burn. Basically Health Ledger Joker) This would also more accurately reflect the literal value of the stolen cargo since like pretty much any other player who's done the requisite grinds to play competitively I have a ridonkulous amount of credits. It's not worth my time to haul it back to the station to sell, I'd rather spend that time looking for another player interaction.

Some would find that horrible, "oh Feros you're just blowing up hours of another players' time" but the fact of the matter is I've invested 10 (probably 100) x as many hours to reach the ability to do that. And the board is full of complaints about how void opals are too easy anyway.

I tried two months to find a fun way to play the good guy and it just doesn't exist in ED if you find NPC/BGS interactions inconsequential and/or there's any chaos to your character whatsoever.

 

[NeilF]

The thing about piracy loot is that the cargo is just a token by which to have a meaningful/entertaining/funny/whatever encounter with another player that isn't just "hey hai guys let's wing up and move some bits from one station to another" or "hey let's try to murder each other". And have a bit of roleplay identity. Most CMDRs I play with care much more about materials than about credits/commodities. For an experienced player, any activity that doesn't have fun value is credit worthless due to time sink if it's not void opal mining/R2R/passenger runs/etc.

I've tried reverse piracy, by which I interdicted a player and "forced" them to scoop up and deliver narcotics to a station and sell on black market. That was novel but ended up being mostly a training exercise for the baby seal. It has potential if I can find less squishy victims, especially if I can direct them to a large station that might scan them so they're forced to pilot well and quickly through that mailslot or die. Maybe that's griefing but drug mules are a thing and I'm a pirate right? For the record on that one I was in a cobra with no engineering except FSD reset dumbfires which I never even used.

I'm also considering demanding cargo and then just dropping mines around it after they jettison, to see if they'll scoop it (not allowing limpets). Or even simply blowing it up in front of them. Which when I say it sounds sadistic, but would be valid role play (i'm a filthy rich pirate who just wants to watch the world burn. Basically Health Ledger Joker) This would also more accurately reflect the literal value of the stolen cargo since like pretty much any other player who's done the requisite grinds to play competitively I have a ridonkulous amount of credits. It's not worth my time to haul it back to the station to sell, I'd rather spend that time looking for another player interaction.

Some would find that horrible, "oh Feros you're just blowing up hours of another players' time" but the fact of the matter is I've invested 10 (probably 100) x as many hours to reach the ability to do that. And the board is full of complaints about how void opals are too easy anyway.

I tried two months to find a fun way to play the good guy and it just doesn't exist in ED if there's any chaos to your character.

You are correct that CMDR destruction is not the desired outcome for a pirate

Piracy is a bit of a mess IMHO. First, I can't comment on pirating NPCs, so I'll just have to park that aspect of the game

But with general piracy (& PvP piracy in particular) a number of things concern me:-

1. Why is there no piracy reputation/career? Why can't a player progress as a pirate gaining access to new locations (I'd always hoped asteroid bases would be thes nefarious places). Why don't pirates gain access to more and more rewarding missions as their reputation improves? Note: Some of these missions could even offer to cover up the crime itself so the resultant gameplay is orchestrated, easy and fun!
2. Why don't these pirate related missions (eg: to steal X) tie into the BGS or indeed even into some OPEN only CG? ie: To get the game to orchestrate PvP gameplay for those interested in it?
3. The day FD changed hatch limpets to ignore shields was a bad one. It removed depth and gameplay. IMHO? A pirate should have to reduce shields down to say 50% or 25% before a hatch breaker can lock on.
4. C&P just seems like hammer to break a nut. Try being a "good pirate", never even damaging a victims hull, and see how well it works for you. ie: Should a pick pocket get that level of C&P levelled at them!

 

[ryan_m]

Piracy is a bit of a mess IMHO. First, I can't comment on pirating NPCs, so I'll just have to park that aspect of the game

But with general piracy (& PvP piracy in particular) a number of things concern me:-

1. Why is there no piracy reputation/career? Why can't a player progress as a pirate gaining access to new locations (I'd always hoped asteroid bases would be thes nefarious places). Why don't pirates gain access to more and more rewarding missions as their reputation improves? Note: Some of these missions could even offer to cover up the crime itself so the resultant gameplay is orchestrated, easy and fun!
2. Why don't these pirate related missions (eg: to steal X) tie into the BGS or indeed even into some OPEN only CG? ie: To get the game to orchestrate PvP gameplay for those interested in it?
3. The day FD changed hatch limpets to ignore shields was a bad one. It removed depth and gameplay. IMHO? A pirate should have to reduce shields down to say 50% or 25% before a hatch breaker can lock on.
4. C&P just seems like hammer to break a nut. Try being a "good pirate", never even damaging a victims hull, and see how well it works for you. ie: Should a pick pocket get that level of C&P levelled at them!

Because FDev doesn't know how to design it and combat logging needs to be fixed before piracy can be made viable. If your opponent can just magically remove themselves from the danger, there's no point to any of it.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Piracy is a bit of a mess IMHO. First, I can't comment on pirating NPCs, so I'll just have to park that aspect of the game

But with general piracy (& PvP piracy in particular) a number of things concern me:-

1. Why is there no piracy reputation/career? Why can't a player progress as a pirate gaining access to new locations (I'd always hoped asteroid bases would be thes nefarious places). Why don't pirates gain access to more and more rewarding missions as their reputation improves? Note: Some of these missions could even offer to cover up the crime itself so the resultant gameplay is orchestrated, easy and fun!
2. Why don't these pirate related missions (eg: to steal X) tie into the BGS or indeed even into some OPEN only CG? ie: To get the game to orchestrate PvP gameplay for those interested in it?
3. The day FD changed hatch limpets to ignore shields was a bad one. It removed depth and gameplay. IMHO? A pirate should have to reduce shields down to say 50% or 25% before a hatch breaker can lock on.
4. C&P just seems like hammer to break a nut. Try being a "good pirate", never even damaging a victims hull, and see how well it works for you. ie: Should a pick pocket get that level of C&P levelled at them!

Pirating NPCs is basically the ability to kit a shield tank and launch limpets. It's correct to ignore it.

You're kind of missing the sort of piracy to which I refer, and which almost all the pirates I hang out with want. It is exclusively against other CMDRs. There is no fun for us in the mission board, even if the mission board wasn't terrible. I don't care about station locked systems except for shinrarta because I can buy all my toys there.

At this point, I don't even carry hatch breaker limpets. If I can't get what I want through comms and threat/use of force, I don't really care, because like I said, the cargo is literally worthless to me.

I'm probably an outlier with respect to not carrying limpets, but that's also because I like to use small/medium ships where slots are limited. I'd probably stick on a hatchet if I flew a big 3 or python.

I'm sure there are PvE pirate CMDRs but they pose no threat to "the safety of other commanders in the game", aside from if they get themselves killed. I and my cutthroat squadron mates do, however.

 

[Strangepork]

There's an incredible way to improve the safety of our fellow Pilots Federation members in game right now. In fact, it doesn't even require any action on the part of Frontier!

Use foresight and plan ahead.

Let's take this past weekend as an example. Who on earth thought it was a good idea to encourage thousands of explorers in ships not Bubble ready to converge on a Low Security System and not provide any protection whatsoever beyond, 'Sure hope you signed up for the Private Group!' I love what folks are trying to do with Distant Worlds 2 but leadership has got to stand up and accept responsibility for their role in yesterday's shenanigans. Lots of you have been playing Elite for ages. It's known for players finding all kinds of creative ways to get at each other. This is hardly a new thing. How did you screw this up so badly?

Like I've said before there's shooting fish in a barrel and then there's the fish building the barrel.

Elite is what it is. Way past time we all recognize that fact and plan accordingly. If you don't through either neglect, entitlement, or some other foolishness and pay the price you've got no one to blame but yourself.

Well I did burn my tongue on some hot tea, while in VR the other day. Maybe something SHOULD be done!

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Because FDev doesn't know how to design it and combat logging needs to be fixed before piracy can be made viable. If your opponent can just magically remove themselves from the danger, there's no point to any of it.

Yes, as with pretty much any unscripted and not pre-allied CMDR interaction, combat logging renders it all toothless. Combat logging in open is the worst thing in the game. The. Worst. Thing. At least for the "MO" part of MMO.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I really like this idea of dropping mines around jettisoned void opals and seeing if they'll scoop it.

That would really advance some CMDR's narratives.

 

[NeilF]

To this point, I don't even carry hatch breaker limpets. If I can't get what I want through comms and threat/use of force, I don't really care, because like I said, the cargo is literally worthless to me.

...and here lies a clear example of one of the core issues with piracy...

So again, consider if the game orchestrated scenarios where cargo WAS of worth to you? eg: An OPEN only CG where a number of specific locations were wanting Void Opals. And these were more frequent in a couple of newly discovered regions. Pirating those mining ships would not be worthwhile... Or where missions could pop up at pirate bases in conjuction with this giving the added bonus of covering up the crime etc.

ie: The game/BGS actually trying to orchestrate PvP (piracy) gameplay...