I support the OP
Discussion Open Letter to Frontier Developments
- Thread starter AnthorNet
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Even in 1984 I had out of game trade tools. I used pen and paper to record the prices at every different economy type I visited and once I had enough data (not as much as you might think) I compiled what we would now call a spreadsheet of the average price of every commodity for each economy. When I docked at a new system I would compare the market prices with my spreadsheet and buy whatever was under the average price for that economy type. I would then check the map for a nearby system whose economy type would pay more for those goods and make that my next destination. I almost always made money.
But this is not 1984, the economy in ED is more complicated and so should my out of game tools be more complicated than they were then.
wolverine2710
Tutorial & Guide Writer
I undertstand your concerns but I don't think supplying us with an API has to be expense for FD - at least NOT a stop gap solution. A copy/paste from post #105. Since last year multiple authors have created threads were we basically stated: We know creating a good official API takes time/resources increases cpu usage and bandwidth on the FD servers BUT we have a suggestion. A stop gap solution. One which creates basically NO extra cpu usage on the FD servers, does NOT increase bandwidth usage and is really quite easy to implement. My words as someone who makes a living as a Java software engineer. Basically dump the information seen on screen when opening it in an XML/JSON file and let the third party tools collect it and distribute it. For more and detailed information see the thread "Open letter to FD - Please DO actively support third-party tools".
A disadvantage of that dump API ifs ofc that the data is available only on the machine where you run ED. That data can ofc be distributed by for example EDDN to websites and then used. But what if we want to display data on a smartphone? To keep things simple as an example, what if a tool author wants to create an android app which shows the same information as the official iPhone app. Tool authors have already thought about that. Gen.Fussypants has created two programs, an Android app "AndDiscovered - Android exploration tracking tool modeled after EDDiscovery" and a method to send data from a PC to that Android smartphone "EDProxy - Netlog proxy server" . The prosxy is oipen source and iirc the author is open to extend it for other uses. For example sending data to an android smartphone received from the dump API. Iḿ pretty sure it can be extended to gather all smartphones. Just my 2 euro cent.
Bottom line: The eco sytem to distribute is online since approx a year (EDDN), lots of sites use that distributed data, there are methods to send data directlly to (a) smartphone(s) . All we need is data from FD. Data which is sanctioned by them. Its amazing what have been done so far by scraping the (debugging) netlogs, OCR-ing and the companion API. Imagine what can be done if we have real data - say all data now available on the menus in the cockpit. The eco sytem would explode with new and brilliant tools. Its up to FD to decide what direction they want to go in the near and long ternm. Tool authors will adapt.
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Here's an idea just so shocking it might work. If you want to use 3rd party sites, then do so. If you don't want to use them, don't.
Personally, without Inara making trading bearable, dare I say it - fun, I'd not have returned to Elite even with Horizons. So please Frontier, commit to a an API developers can count on. Think of them as content creators you don't have to pay.
Personally, without Inara making trading bearable, dare I say it - fun, I'd not have returned to Elite even with Horizons. So please Frontier, commit to a an API developers can count on. Think of them as content creators you don't have to pay.
I don't use any 3rd party tools currently as they are, well, what they are, which is mostly concerned with trading and how to make a profit quickly, something that's always been very much against the way things are purposely designed in the Elite games.
I WOULD appreciate a 3rd party tool that let me keep track of my exploration however, as the game doesn't give me that information in an easy to access manner(clicking on each system to see if I've been there already works, but with 400,000,000,000 systems, it's rather slow). Currently, unless something has changed recently that I'm not aware of with the 3rd party exploration tools(quite possible), I have to manually enter the information in a 3rd party tool to track where I've been. I'm sorry, excuse me, why the hell should I be bothering to download a tool that requires me to manually input the information? I've GOT Notepad and Word already to do that with, or I can just screenshot system maps as I go along and save myself the effort.
This isn't a dismissive statement against the people making the 3rd party tools, they are working with the restrictions the game places on them, I understand this. I don't foresee that really changing however, security issues alone preclude it. And again, it doesn't fit with lore nor with the way the games have always worked which that lore is based on.
'But it's just a game' I see some of you saying....yes, it is a game, and like ALL games it has it's own rules and structures it follows. This isn't your house version of Monopoly or Chutes and Ladders however, so you making up house rules doesn't apply. FD makes the rules, they enforce the rules, you don't like the rules, well, tough. You go to Las Vegas or Monaco, you don't get to tell the casinos how the games get played do you? You try that and you get asked to leave by large men in ill fitting suits. FD doesn't have any large men in ill fitting suits, well, ok they may have those, but they aren't asking you to leave. Instead they don't allow you access to information they don't feel you need to have access to, such as prices of commodities around the galaxy. One of those rules of the game thing, one you don't get to change via house rules because FD is the house, not you.
I'd love to see some way to keep track of where I've been, and beyond that, not much use for the rest of the array of 3rd party tools that have been created, almost all of which deal with trading in an attempt to bypass the very limits placed on trading BY FD in the first place. Normally such things are called hacks, not 3rd party tools...just saying....
I WOULD appreciate a 3rd party tool that let me keep track of my exploration however, as the game doesn't give me that information in an easy to access manner(clicking on each system to see if I've been there already works, but with 400,000,000,000 systems, it's rather slow). Currently, unless something has changed recently that I'm not aware of with the 3rd party exploration tools(quite possible), I have to manually enter the information in a 3rd party tool to track where I've been. I'm sorry, excuse me, why the hell should I be bothering to download a tool that requires me to manually input the information? I've GOT Notepad and Word already to do that with, or I can just screenshot system maps as I go along and save myself the effort.
This isn't a dismissive statement against the people making the 3rd party tools, they are working with the restrictions the game places on them, I understand this. I don't foresee that really changing however, security issues alone preclude it. And again, it doesn't fit with lore nor with the way the games have always worked which that lore is based on.
'But it's just a game' I see some of you saying....yes, it is a game, and like ALL games it has it's own rules and structures it follows. This isn't your house version of Monopoly or Chutes and Ladders however, so you making up house rules doesn't apply. FD makes the rules, they enforce the rules, you don't like the rules, well, tough. You go to Las Vegas or Monaco, you don't get to tell the casinos how the games get played do you? You try that and you get asked to leave by large men in ill fitting suits. FD doesn't have any large men in ill fitting suits, well, ok they may have those, but they aren't asking you to leave. Instead they don't allow you access to information they don't feel you need to have access to, such as prices of commodities around the galaxy. One of those rules of the game thing, one you don't get to change via house rules because FD is the house, not you.
I'd love to see some way to keep track of where I've been, and beyond that, not much use for the rest of the array of 3rd party tools that have been created, almost all of which deal with trading in an attempt to bypass the very limits placed on trading BY FD in the first place. Normally such things are called hacks, not 3rd party tools...just saying....
The exploration logs exists, EDDiscovery and EDSM sync in mind. And I'm sure there is more...
They use a dump FD provide in his verboseLoggin, not the easiest way to track things, but it works!
Same goes with EDMC which can track where you've gone, because the unofficial API returns the system you are.
With those informations, a lot can be done for explorers!
On EDSM we even saves them in our database so you can share them with other tools, have 3D maps, public profile, first discoveries, and more!
wolverine2710
Tutorial & Guide Writer
Let me concentrate on the exploration part of your post. Might I suggest having a look at the "Logbook" section of EDCodex. There are tools there which WILL do what you are looking for. As I want to give all tool authors an equal change I'm not going to tell you which tools fit. If you read back a couple of pages a well known tool is mentioned. It uses your netlog to get the system name BUT you will have to enable debugging for that.. As you are concerned about security this might not be the right thing for you. Because with debugging enabled the logs also contain your ip-address for example. Its a (small) price you have to pay because ED does not give us the system/station where you are by default. Its not (in) the house they have built for us. Tool authors have to be creative to get the needed data ;-) Hope this helps.
Ninja-ed by AnthorNe t
Edit: All tools mentioned by AnthorNet are in EDCodex - which is a third party tool itself......
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I'd like to see most of the third party tools in game. I use Coriolis and think it's functionality should already be available within the game so I'm of the mind that ED should be including these types of things already as part of the interface.
I think the same should be true for commander logs (journeys), regular note taking and market snapshots (trade computer).
That they are not in the game has always been something that irked me.
So I'm in support of the idea in the OP but I would much prefer ED actually include these types of tools in game.
I think the same should be true for commander logs (journeys), regular note taking and market snapshots (trade computer).
That they are not in the game has always been something that irked me.
So I'm in support of the idea in the OP but I would much prefer ED actually include these types of tools in game.
Yeah, and people should not be allowed to speak with each other, because they could share prices by accident.
Is that by any chance the true reason why in-game chat was barely functional in the initial release?
Please don't tell me all this "cheating" . If a game is based heavily ONLY on finding stuff out yourself...well...maybe it is really wrong game to play then.
Also...
If a game is marketed as "multiplayer", but at the same time actively resists any kinds of player cooperation - well...maybe it is really wrong game to play then.
I think the main reason behind the simple communication was the believability of it in the Universe (no FTL communication).
I have to say, I got to use the voice comms in game recently and found the comms disappearing after a certain distance through whizz bangs and pops to be really cool.
A shame it took me 12 months to have any voice communication with anyone.
Yes please, I would love to see more support from ED for third party tools as well.
The community tools can help provide some depth to the game where some feel it is lacking. If the demand is there, the community will create it.
And if a tool is successful FD could even be inspired to develop this functionality properly for E: D in the future.
About cheating yay or nay: isn't that irrelevant? Using tools is optional so it allows everyone to enjoy the game the way they want it.
It's a big game, find what works for you, have fun. I think that is very much in the spirit of Elite Dangerous.
The community tools can help provide some depth to the game where some feel it is lacking. If the demand is there, the community will create it.
And if a tool is successful FD could even be inspired to develop this functionality properly for E: D in the future.
About cheating yay or nay: isn't that irrelevant? Using tools is optional so it allows everyone to enjoy the game the way they want it.
It's a big game, find what works for you, have fun. I think that is very much in the spirit of Elite Dangerous.
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I'm fitting out an Asp for the Distant Worlds event. Now I can do that in game by going to outfitting and actually swapping out different parts to see what effect it has on range, energy etc; but it's a slow process and you can't guarantee that a station will have all the modules. Or I can go to Coriolis and do it with a few clicks of a mouse. It doesn't give me an advantage in game, it's not pay-to-win, it just means i can use my limited play time to actually Play.
You have my full support
You have my full support
so to summarize, you want the things you want and everything else is hacking.
Captains log, isn't mentioned for some reason and I personally use it, finding it the best of the offered, amongst other things can track what is in a system with notes and whatnot.
Hey,
It appears to me that there is really two parts to this discussion. I would encourage the authors of the letter in the future to be a little more clear in what they are specifically asking for if only to help focus the discussion of threads like this.
The two requests from this discussion that I see are as follows:
The primary focus of the OP seems to be asking Frontier for general support but the discussion seems to focus on the market data. There are many forms general support from Frontier can come but the biggest is just getting data from the game to third-party developers. This data could be market data or not. It could also be information about power play, item stats, universe data, and much more. This of course if done amazingly right could be expanded to more such as chat and even inventory management.
As market data seems to be the focus of most the debate in this thread it is probably a good idea for Frontier to avoid that for a while if they were to officially support an external API of some kind. Launching an API is work enough, trying to also balance the design challenges is something that should come later once the basics are working.
If the discussion is really about requesting support from Frontier for third-party developers I would find it hard to do anything but agree and encourage that.
Before I go a bit further I feel it is important to clarify what third-party support can mean. Here is how I break it down myself:
I don't know how I feel about in-client APIs. It tends to change the game to much for my liking and generally leads to situations where you have to have certain things installed or others are just going to be better than you.
External APIs though offer a LOT of potential. Here are some examples of what external APIs can do for a game when the company supports them:
Game: Destiny
API: Inventory management
Access: Read and write
URL: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...anager/apghicjnekejhfancbkahkhdckhdagna?hl=en
Description: Because Bungie has exposed a read and write API for Destiny third-party developers are able to create applications that allow players to adjust their inventory from outside the client. This can be done in real time. I don't have a console myself so am going off of what my friends who do play Destiny have told me but from what I understand this works while you are playing the game as well. So you can have the game open, adjust your inventory from your laptop or phone, and the change applies right away to your character.
Game: EVE Online
API: Fitting management
Access: Read and write
URL: https://community.eveonline.com/new...e-from-kill-boards-and-external-applications/
Bonus URL: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68768/1/fitting_import_demo.webm
Description: A really important aspect of EVE Online is saving and managing large numbers of what they call fittings. A saved collection of items that should go on specific ships. For a long time third-party developers have offered tools for EVE players that allow you to play around with fits from outside the client without having to actually have the ship or items. Just to sort of see what it does to the stats for a ship. With the addition of this API it made it incredibly easy for players to get fits from outside the client, often from one of those fitting tools, into the EVE client in real time.
Game: EVE Online
API: Universe data, corporation data, and more
Access: Read only
URL: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/
Description: Dotlan is considered a very popular tool for EVE players. Dotlan takes the same information you can get in the client and just presents it in a different way that players often prefer when planing. The format used by Dotlan often makes it easier to try and plan invasions and track how they are going. Dotlan does more though in that they try and track the history of things. So you can see the history of who owns a solar system, how many members a corporation (the EVE version of a guild) has and has had over time in nice graphs. There is a lot more but that should give you a general idea.
Game: League of Legends
API: Not sure of the exact APIs used
Access: Read only
URL: http://champion.builder.gg/
Description: By pulling stats of champions sites are able to build really awesome graphs showing how a champion does in different areas of the game over times. Often including things such as popular item set choices. Admittedly I don't know LoL well enough to pull up better examples of API usage and there are a lot so I just sort of picked one.
I could go on listing examples for a long time but the point I am trying to make is that there is a lot that could be offered to third-party developers without being a game design challenge. With that in mind I think the discussion in the thread could be a little different. There are a number of posts that seem to be against any kind of API because they immediately link it to market data and think that is the only thing that would be offered. Which again if I understand the OP correctly is not what they are asking for. I doubt they would complain if the market data was included but is not the specific goal of the letter.
I don't know how I feel about the idea of market data being more accurate or readily available as I never spent enough time hauling to really understand that. I do however fully support the request from third-party developers in asking Frontier to officially support them in some fashion with some data. There are so many things that could be offered and would make this game so much more amazing. True a lot of it could be built into the game but Frontier doesn't have an unlimited amount of money and I actually like having something to do related to the game I play while not at my computer.
Anyways bottom line is I whole heartily support this request!
It appears to me that there is really two parts to this discussion. I would encourage the authors of the letter in the future to be a little more clear in what they are specifically asking for if only to help focus the discussion of threads like this.
The two requests from this discussion that I see are as follows:
- General support from Frontier for third-party developers.
- Specifically support from Frontier for more easily getting market data from Elite to third-party developers.
The primary focus of the OP seems to be asking Frontier for general support but the discussion seems to focus on the market data. There are many forms general support from Frontier can come but the biggest is just getting data from the game to third-party developers. This data could be market data or not. It could also be information about power play, item stats, universe data, and much more. This of course if done amazingly right could be expanded to more such as chat and even inventory management.
As market data seems to be the focus of most the debate in this thread it is probably a good idea for Frontier to avoid that for a while if they were to officially support an external API of some kind. Launching an API is work enough, trying to also balance the design challenges is something that should come later once the basics are working.
If the discussion is really about requesting support from Frontier for third-party developers I would find it hard to do anything but agree and encourage that.
Before I go a bit further I feel it is important to clarify what third-party support can mean. Here is how I break it down myself:
- External APIs: These are generally HTTP APIs that allow third-party developers get information about the game out, and even sometimes into the game, via external applications.
- In-Client APIs: These are more like mods. You see a lot of it in WoW where you can download scripts that change the way your UI looks, adding features, and more.
- Static data: This is generally data that doesn't change between patches or expansions packaged together and given out. Really awesome for mobile apps.
I don't know how I feel about in-client APIs. It tends to change the game to much for my liking and generally leads to situations where you have to have certain things installed or others are just going to be better than you.
External APIs though offer a LOT of potential. Here are some examples of what external APIs can do for a game when the company supports them:
Game: Destiny
API: Inventory management
Access: Read and write
URL: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...anager/apghicjnekejhfancbkahkhdckhdagna?hl=en
Description: Because Bungie has exposed a read and write API for Destiny third-party developers are able to create applications that allow players to adjust their inventory from outside the client. This can be done in real time. I don't have a console myself so am going off of what my friends who do play Destiny have told me but from what I understand this works while you are playing the game as well. So you can have the game open, adjust your inventory from your laptop or phone, and the change applies right away to your character.
Game: EVE Online
API: Fitting management
Access: Read and write
URL: https://community.eveonline.com/new...e-from-kill-boards-and-external-applications/
Bonus URL: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68768/1/fitting_import_demo.webm
Description: A really important aspect of EVE Online is saving and managing large numbers of what they call fittings. A saved collection of items that should go on specific ships. For a long time third-party developers have offered tools for EVE players that allow you to play around with fits from outside the client without having to actually have the ship or items. Just to sort of see what it does to the stats for a ship. With the addition of this API it made it incredibly easy for players to get fits from outside the client, often from one of those fitting tools, into the EVE client in real time.
Game: EVE Online
API: Universe data, corporation data, and more
Access: Read only
URL: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/
Description: Dotlan is considered a very popular tool for EVE players. Dotlan takes the same information you can get in the client and just presents it in a different way that players often prefer when planing. The format used by Dotlan often makes it easier to try and plan invasions and track how they are going. Dotlan does more though in that they try and track the history of things. So you can see the history of who owns a solar system, how many members a corporation (the EVE version of a guild) has and has had over time in nice graphs. There is a lot more but that should give you a general idea.
Game: League of Legends
API: Not sure of the exact APIs used
Access: Read only
URL: http://champion.builder.gg/
Description: By pulling stats of champions sites are able to build really awesome graphs showing how a champion does in different areas of the game over times. Often including things such as popular item set choices. Admittedly I don't know LoL well enough to pull up better examples of API usage and there are a lot so I just sort of picked one.
I could go on listing examples for a long time but the point I am trying to make is that there is a lot that could be offered to third-party developers without being a game design challenge. With that in mind I think the discussion in the thread could be a little different. There are a number of posts that seem to be against any kind of API because they immediately link it to market data and think that is the only thing that would be offered. Which again if I understand the OP correctly is not what they are asking for. I doubt they would complain if the market data was included but is not the specific goal of the letter.
I don't know how I feel about the idea of market data being more accurate or readily available as I never spent enough time hauling to really understand that. I do however fully support the request from third-party developers in asking Frontier to officially support them in some fashion with some data. There are so many things that could be offered and would make this game so much more amazing. True a lot of it could be built into the game but Frontier doesn't have an unlimited amount of money and I actually like having something to do related to the game I play while not at my computer.
Anyways bottom line is I whole heartily support this request!
I'll take another look, but last I time checked, I had to manually enter the data even with the verbose logging enabled.
And the security I'm talking about isn't on MY end, it's on FD's end.
I don't use any 3rd party tools, I WANT some way to know where I've been, something the game should actually be telling me in the first place, and if someone has a working 3rd party tool that does that without me having to manually input the information, great! Getting commodity prices from all over the bubble is quite a bit different from keeping track of where I'VE been personally, and if you can't see that difference...well...ain't no making you understand it, so I won't bother.
Xondk, yeah, I've familiar with that one, it's actually my preferred option if it does it all automatically now, Genar PM'd me and I'm taking another look to see if it does that now, otherwise, I'll just start taking screenies my next trip out. Annoying, makes it a pain, but it's easy and painless, as storage space isn't a problem for me.
wolverine2710
Tutorial & Guide Writer
Slight OT but part of preparing a post to put things in perspective wrt market data distribution by the EDDN and how up to date prices really are in the trading tools which are receiving EDDN market data. Perhaps I have the time to finish it this evening - if not it will be next year I'm afraid. Anyway a couple of nice tools which monitor/visualize EDDN data distribution.
I know for a fact there are more tools but these come to mind - the others are cool as well. You can find the others (16) in the EDDN category of EDCodex.
- Official EDDN monitor. EDCodex entry. Status page - keep it open as it refreshes. Schemas page - Market, shipyard and outfitting distribution
- EDDN RealTime Feed. EDCodex entry . Website. Shows a 3D map of the Galaxy and which systems have submitted data.
- ROSS eddb backend. EDCodex entry. Eddn Message Log and Database Change History. Shows also manual entries by commanders.
I know for a fact there are more tools but these come to mind - the others are cool as well. You can find the others (16) in the EDDN category of EDCodex.
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If FD wanted you to know where you had been obviously they would have put it in game. Your use of screenshots to keep track is immersion breaking and really tantamount to cheating. I mean your enthusiasm for an automatic export of your travels to a third party tool, without the need for manually and tediously inputting the data is obviously hacking. But then again I wonder why I bother reasoning with the inherently unreasonable.
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