Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Darkfyre99]

I would say the same could have been true of PP1, but then we had to abandon power based subreddits because other players would undermine any system we mentioned in solo…

How do you know they were doing it in Solo, as opposed to the alternative: That this game’s netcode is designed (poorly) to facilitate cooperative play, rather than antagonistic play.

I’m not saying that nobody was playing in Solo/OG, but my experiment at George Lucas was consistent with previous experiments at CGs. Namely that most (60-80%) players are in Open, a tiny percent of which are actually hostile to other players, and the stars need to align (or active cooperation has to happen) for two hostile players to encounter each other.

 

[Jockey79]

Has anything been suggested to bring Open up to the efficacy level of solo/pg 'players'?

Well if you're not playing Open Mode for the interactions of other players, put all players you bump into on block and carry on.

But then I'd question why you're in Open Mode because the whole point of Open Mode is the interactions with other players.

 

[orrainne57100]

.


Hello, for A lavigny Duval why can I no longer sell my "pilot circle" bonuses so that she can multiply them by 2,
I can only sell her the pirate bonus this is a bug or it is no longer possible

.

 

[anShpan]

While being a relatively rookie in ED on PC (joined this August, ~600h) I'm only now beginning to realize how brilliant this solution with 3 modes was and is now.
Understanding the fact that Galaxy is shared among every of us and in the same it is mine (because is it up to me do I want to see other people or not) bring feeling of endless space, immersion and excitement. I have no words to describe how cool it is to see that a Planet was first discovered by some Commander at 2019, first mapped in 2022 by another and now in 2024 I'm doing First footfalls on that. Bravo, FDev!

Another cool thing is that during last couple months I'm not even fitting anti-ship weapons on anything other than built and engineered to purpose Pmk2. iCourier for on-foot missions has only 1 c1 adv. dumb-fire missiles (G5 rapid fire), mining T-8 only mining gear, shield-tank Mandalay explorer has empty hardpoints at all. Again: Bravo, FDev!

 

[Lateralus]

While being a relatively rookie in ED on PC (joined this August, ~600h) I'm only now beginning to realize how brilliant this solution with 3 modes was and is now.

Yes and no.

While on one hand it lets players play in the way they wish to and allowing them to avoid potential negative experiences... The mode system also hamstrings potential large-scale player-driven scenarios like group warfare.

The mistake they made was making everything open to all modes... they should've gone down the road of allowing personal achievements and progress to be made in solo/private and wider galaxy impacting actions restricted to open play. This would've allowed the mmo side of the game to flourish properly.

Everyone grinding away in different modes to make progress bars go up and star map dots change colour is as dull as dishwater.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The mistake they made was making everything open to all modes... they should've gone down the road of allowing personal achievements and progress to be made in solo/private and wider galaxy impacting actions restricted to open play. This would've allowed the mmo side of the game to flourish properly.

From a different perspective it's not a badly designed PvP game, it's a PvE game where every single player experiences and affects the mode shared galaxy (which may result in competition between players) and where other players, and therefore PvP, are optional.

While some players no doubt consider that all players affecting game features regardless of game mode was a mistake, for others it's a welcome feature of a game where they don't need to get involved in in-the-same-instance PvP ever if they don't want to.

 

[anShpan]

Actually, same

Yes and no.

Applies to:

The mistake they made was making everything open to all modes... they should've gone down the road of allowing personal achievements and progress to be made in solo/private and wider galaxy impacting actions restricted to open play. This would've allowed the mmo side of the game to flourish properly.

First of all: no such restrictions possible nor should be ever done in already purchased product (hopefully, that is obvious).
Wider Galaxy impact boils down to what is exactly each of us mean by that. Concerning PPx.0, IMHO, which is solely background activity then it is more natural for Solo/PG than for Open. IMHO, would be a huge exaggeration to say that IRL Politics and Economy works in Open-Only. And that not supposed to be any different in ED, even in year 333x.

IMO, even bigger exaggeration would be to call ED an MMO. To me that is more like open-world simulator of how life might be in 13 centuries in future.

 

[Jockey79]

While on one hand it lets players play in the way they wish to and allowing them to avoid potential negative experiences... The mode system also hamstrings potential large-scale player-driven scenarios like group warfare.

This isn't EVE Online, the game wasn't built for that style of gameplay.
Even if it were an Open Only game, it's too heavily instanced and you still wouldn't see everyone and have the same problems.

The mistake they made was making everything open to all modes... they should've gone down the road of allowing personal achievements and progress to be made in solo/private and wider galaxy impacting actions restricted to open play. This would've allowed the mmo side of the game to flourish properly.

Nope, the only mistake made is the people who refuse to understand this isn't call of duty in space.
And while I don't agree with the game having an "MMO" tag, by definition it is one and it works fine in that sense.

Everyone grinding away in different modes to make progress bars go up and star map dots change colour is as dull as dishwater.

Yet that was the advertised game from the start, so why buy it and why stick around for it?

 

[Jockey79]

IMO, even bigger exaggeration would be to call ED an MMO. To me that is more like open-world simulator of how life might be in 13 centuries in future.

It wasn't sold as an "MMO" to begin with, that tag was added a few weeks after it was released.
I disagree with the decision, as it was just a marketing stunt to sell more copies. But by the definition it does fit.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I've played in open the last few nights as I'm currently working with friends to flip a system and we're seeing active resistance. We haven't encountered a player in our CZ instances, but we have seen a lot of bugs - progress bars that stop moving when a wingmate arrives after the instance has started; instances that only spawn ships from one side (these are pretty challenging and fun when it only spawns baddies); dropping into different instances from our wingmates.

In such circumstances, playing in open makes your game experience worse without adding any value. Solo/PG is far more coherent.

 

[anShpan]

In such circumstances, playing in open makes your game experience worse without adding any value. Solo/PG is far more coherent.

Sound like a common ground becoming visible...

 

[ethelred]

Welcome to winter.

To flip it somewhat - those CMDRs who play in Solo and/or PG - could there be an Open only activity (that for arguments sake would not be doable in Solo/PG and also somehow within the technical restraints of the game) that would tempt you to take part?

If so, what would it have to look like?

 

[Robert Maynard]

What would be the fundamental reason for limiting any activity designed for groups of players to Open only?

Are there players out there who strongly suspect that if the feature was available in Private Groups that they would be left out because they aren't fun to play among?

 

[varonica]

Welcome to winter.

To flip it somewhat - those CMDRs who play in Solo and/or PG - could there be an Open only activity (that for arguments sake would not be doable in Solo/PG and also somehow within the technical restraints of the game) that would tempt you to take part?

If so, what would it have to look like?

Would it be an activity where another player couldn't possibly attack you?

 

[ethelred]

What would be the fundamental reason for limiting any activity designed for groups of players to Open only?

Are there players out there who strongly suspect that if the feature was available in Private Groups that they would be left out because they aren't fun to play among?

It's a thought experiment @Robert Maynard - perhaps to give PvP something exclusive other than CQC.

Don't worry about why, think about what would make you want to join in. Or not.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Yes and no.

While on one hand it lets players play in the way they wish to and allowing them to avoid potential negative experiences... The mode system also hamstrings potential large-scale player-driven scenarios like group warfare.

It’s not the mode system that does that. It’s this game’s netcode that does that. While it is technically possible to get large groups of players to instance together, it requires active cooperation, including 3rd party programs, to do so. Without that, even the busiest in-game location will splinter into numerous small instances, primarily based on location and friends lists.

What the modes do is allow players to control who they interact with. A significant majority of the playerbase voluntarily chooses open to play in, because it’s fun. The few that choose Solo/PG, for a variety of reasons, doesn’t hamper that kind of gameplay. It only hampers the type of player who is simply not fun to play with.

The mistake they made was making everything open to all modes... they should've gone down the road of allowing personal achievements and progress to be made in solo/private and wider galaxy impacting actions restricted to open play. This would've allowed the mmo side of the game to flourish properly.

One person’s mistake is another person’s brilliant design, because the mode system keeps the population of the usual suspects down to a minimum. As a rare suit, a significant majority of players voluntarily choose Open to play in, and the amount of unsportsmanlike behavior is refreshingly low. Allowing the usual suspects to flourish is what kills an MMO… unless it makes said unsportsmanlike behavior a selling point (see EVE Online.)

Everyone grinding away in different modes to make progress bars go up and star map dots change colour is as dull as dishwater.

That’s what the situation is typically in Open as well. Even at an explicitly blockaded station like George Lucas, your odds of encountering an actively hostile player was slim. More players are participating in PP2.0 because the much wider variety of PvE activities appeals to many more players than PP1.0’s extremely limited selection.

As to whether the extremely slim risk of a hostile player makes things more exciting, that’s a YMMV situation. Some players simply have no interest in PvP, so they choose Solo/PG. A significant majority of players feel otherwise, and choose Open for its many benefits. If any player is naturally an inclined towards Open, but chooses Solo/PG for an ephemeral advantage, then they’re likely to use unsportsmanlike behavior to maintain that advantage.

That’s simply not the kind of player who’s fun to play with. Doubly so, when they claim the game, or a subset if it, would be improved by it being restricted to Open.

YMMV

 

[Doctor Dread]

could there be an Open only activity (that for arguments sake would not be doable in Solo/PG and also somehow within the technical restraints of the game) that would tempt you to take part?

No.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

to give PvP something exclusive

What's the justification for that? Why do PvPers always ask for "something exclusive"? Do you really believe optimizing one's gameplay for PvP entitles one to special treatment? I have never seen a Solo or PG player ask for special rewards or preferential treatment, or to take gameplay away from open players.

Those people should really get the message: This isn't a PvP game, there are lots of players who are just not interested in PvP, and the game supports that through its modes. You're not special because you play in open. You play your game, I play my game.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

To flip it somewhat - those CMDRs who play in Solo and/or PG - could there be an Open only activity (that for arguments sake would not be doable in Solo/PG and also somehow within the technical restraints of the game) that would tempt you to take part?

It's already got one of those.

One of my weekly tasks this time is to kill opposed Power ships in a particular system (HIP 72600, from memory) which is nowhere near any other Power's systems, so no unfriendly Power NPCs seem to show up there.

Therefore, the only way to complete it is to hang around waiting for ten people from other Powers to happen to pass through the system, and kill them.

(I am already in Open and, looking at the traffic report for that system, not at all tempted to take part.)

 

[Darkfyre99]

Welcome to winter.

To flip it somewhat - those CMDRs who play in Solo and/or PG - could there be an Open only activity (that for arguments sake would not be doable in Solo/PG and also somehow within the technical restraints of the game) that would tempt you to take part?

If so, what would it have to look like?

I can’t answer that question, because I play almost exclusively in Open.

So I’ll answer the related question: “What would tempt you to be the aggressor and/or fight back in PvP?”

The TLDR answer is, essentially, “Nothing.” For me, there are three sources of friction to actually fight back in PvP, outside a “vanilla only” tournament: extreme risk/reward imbalance, opportunity cost, and the high cost to entry.

The first, the extreme risk/reward imbalance is rather simple: I’m a transport player by nature, so any PvP scenario I’m likely to be hugely imbalanced in the attacker’s favor to begin with. In addition, I’ll be risking hundreds, if not thousands, of merits and kilocredits, for the sake of less than a hundred? That’s not a risk I’m barely willing to take even in PvE, where the odds are typically in my favor, and I can easily escape if I bite off more than I can chew.

The second is the opportunity cost: Is a PvP fight, especially between two meta-builds, be worth my time and be fun? The answer is a resounding NO on both fronts. PvP is an endurance contest, first and foremost, and that kind of thing is not my definition of fun. Plus, in the time it takes to resolve the conflict, I’d be able to earn ten times the merits I’d earn in the fight.

The last is the high cost of entry. The NPCs I typically encounter don’t require the heavy engineering required for PvP meta-builds. G3 engineering provides over 90% of the benefits of G5 engineering, at currently 2% of its cost, and is sufficient to escape from a PvP attack. Furthermore, escaping from a PvP attack requires much fewer modules be engineered, relative to the attacker. Finally, I’ve always found that I can easily gather sufficient engineering materials alongside the activities I enjoy, rather than having to go out of my way for them. In short, if I wanted to actually fight back, I’d have to grind, and I’d rather not ruin my game that way.