Open-Only in PP2.0?

What's the justification for that? Why do PvPers always ask for "something exclusive"? Do you really believe optimizing one's gameplay for PvP entitles one to special treatment? I have never seen a Solo or PG player ask for special rewards or preferential treatment, or to take gameplay away from open players.

Those people should really get the message: This isn't a PvP game, there are lots of players who are just not interested in PvP, and the game supports that through its modes. You're not special because you play in open. You play your game, I play my game.

It's a thought experiment @Helmut Grokenberger !

PvP is valid gameplay, all I am imagining is thinking of a scenario (like the one that Ian describes) that you could see yourself participating in - though the aforementioned activity doesn't seem very interesting in all honesty.

If you've no interest in any type of PvP activity it's fine to say so - this isn't an attempt at a "gotcha" or anything like that. I was just interested if there were any circumstances you would consider choosing Open for a structured PvP activity for PP. Seems like a clear no!
 
It's a thought experiment @Helmut Grokenberger !

PvP is valid gameplay, all I am imagining is thinking of a scenario (like the one that Ian describes) that you could see yourself participating in - though the aforementioned activity doesn't seem very interesting in all honesty.

If you've no interest in any type of PvP activity it's fine to say so - this isn't an attempt at a "gotcha" or anything like that. I was just interested if there were any circumstances you would consider choosing Open for a structured PvP activity for PP. Seems like a clear no!
I got that it's a thought experiment, and I tried to phrase my reply so I don't come across hostile to you - not sure if I succeeded. It's just that it's only the PvP portion of the players that constantly tries to find ways to get non-PvP players to play "their way" as if open gameplay and PvP is some kind of holy grail (it's not, not in this game - other games, maybe). That irks me a bit.

Having said that: My answer to the "thought experiment" would be: Probably none if the goal is to incentivise PvP. I'm just not interested, mostly because I am old, my reflexes were already crap when I was 20, and I don't care for direct competitive gameplay - I'm just not a competitive player. Any activity that was only available in open I would probably just skip and find something else to do. Not neccessarily because it's in open - I do play in open when appropriate; more because you know any "open only" activity will be a magnet for certain types of players, and I don't want to play with those players. But that's also highly speculative, cause it depends on the activity and how it would concentrate players in specific areas.

For instance - Open only CG: I would just not take part. Not worth my time, no matter how sweet the reward is. Open only exploration: Who cares, outside the bubble and its hotspots open is empty, and as long as I'm not forced to turn in my data in ShinDez or Sol, who cares. That's the two extremes I can imagine right now, everything else is probably somewhere in between.
 
Has anything been suggested to bring Open up to the efficacy level of solo/pg 'players'?

I've made a suggestion to bring solo up to the efficiency of Open and PG... allow us to have NPC wingmen. That would balance things better. Probably not as good as having player wingmen, but hey, can't have it all.

Perhaps FD could add a bonus for solo players. That might make it fair.
 
I can’t answer that question, because I play almost exclusively in Open. :p

So I’ll answer the related question: “What would tempt you to be the aggressor and/or fight back in PvP?”

The TLDR answer is, essentially, “Nothing.” For me, there are three sources of friction to actually fight back in PvP, outside a “vanilla only” tournament: extreme risk/reward imbalance, opportunity cost, and the high cost to entry.

The first, the extreme risk/reward imbalance is rather simple: I’m a transport player by nature, so any PvP scenario I’m likely to be hugely imbalanced in the attacker’s favor to begin with. In addition, I’ll be risking hundreds, if not thousands, of merits and kilocredits, for the sake of less than a hundred? That’s not a risk I’m barely willing to take even in PvE, where the odds are typically in my favor, and I can easily escape if I bite off more than I can chew.

The second is the opportunity cost: Is a PvP fight, especially between two meta-builds, be worth my time and be fun? The answer is a resounding NO on both fronts. PvP is an endurance contest, first and foremost, and that kind of thing is not my definition of fun. Plus, in the time it takes to resolve the conflict, I’d be able to earn ten times the merits I’d earn in the fight.

The last is the high cost of entry. The NPCs I typically encounter don’t require the heavy engineering required for PvP meta-builds. G3 engineering provides over 90% of the benefits of G5 engineering, at currently 2% of its cost, and is sufficient to escape from a PvP attack. Furthermore, escaping from a PvP attack requires much fewer modules be engineered, relative to the attacker. Finally, I’ve always found that I can easily gather sufficient engineering materials alongside the activities I enjoy, rather than having to go out of my way for them. In short, if I wanted to actually fight back, I’d have to grind, and I’d rather not ruin my game that way.

Yes, I think we play the same way. I'm not too interested in direct PvP as the grind to get there doesn't interest me, neither does the attrition victory many people describe PvP battles as. (I don't know, never done it).

I'd prefer the facilitation in game of requesting wings for a specific purpose e.g. convoy cover or 4 traders all together - I can do this now ofc but have to faff around with discord and asking around. Far better IMHO to put a request in, on game that people can drop into (like multi-crew)
I got that it's a thought experiment, and I tried to phrase my reply so I don't come across hostile to you - not sure if I succeeded. It's just that it's only the PvP portion of the players that constantly tries to find ways to get non-PvP players to play "their way" as if open gameplay and PvP is some kind of holy grail (it's not, not in this game - other games, maybe). That irks me a bit.

Having said that: My answer to the "thought experiment" would be: Probably none if the goal is to incentivise PvP. I'm just not interested, mostly because I am old, my reflexes were already crap when I was 20, and I don't care for direct competitive gameplay - I'm just not a competitive player. Any activity that was only available in open I would probably just skip and find something else to do. Not neccessarily because it's in open - I do play in open when appropriate; more because you know any "open only" activity will be a magnet for certain types of players, and I don't want to play with those players. But that's also highly speculative, cause it depends on the activity and how it would concentrate players in specific areas.

For instance - Open only CG: I would just not take part. Not worth my time, no matter how sweet the reward is. Open only exploration: Who cares, outside the bubble and its hotspots open is empty, and as long as I'm not forced to turn in my data in ShinDez or Sol, who cares. That's the two extremes I can imagine right now, everything else is probably somewhere in between.

Gotcha. Fox and hounds (in effect what an CG in open looks like) I find pretty good fun though it's bloody hard to evade all the time. Those hounds can be right baskets though.

There's always space on my T9 for a gunner - the issue is that trying to fight, at all, is just simply not worth it so you don't see convoy attack style gameplay as the defenders are simply outclassed without artificial limits on the attackers - e.g. must be small ships etc.

I'm pretty sure the San Tu lot had combat in specific Eagle builds at one point - I think that would be pretty good with an even equipment playing field.
 
It's already got one of those.

One of my weekly tasks this time is to kill opposed Power ships in a particular system (HIP 72600, from memory) which is nowhere near any other Power's systems, so no unfriendly Power NPCs seem to show up there.

Therefore, the only way to complete it is to hang around waiting for ten people from other Powers to happen to pass through the system, and kill them.

(I am already in Open and, looking at the traffic report for that system, not at all tempted to take part.)

I think power based signal sources should occasionally spawn with power NPCs in the higher threat level ones, sometimes enemy power ships.
 
The second is the opportunity cost: Is a PvP fight, especially between two meta-builds, be worth my time and be fun? The answer is a resounding NO on both fronts. PvP is an endurance contest, first and foremost, and that kind of thing is not my definition of fun. Plus, in the time it takes to resolve the conflict, I’d be able to earn ten times the merits I’d earn in the fight.

The last is the high cost of entry. The NPCs I typically encounter don’t require the heavy engineering required for PvP meta-builds. G3 engineering provides over 90% of the benefits of G5 engineering, at currently 2% of its cost, and is sufficient to escape from a PvP attack. Furthermore, escaping from a PvP attack requires much fewer modules be engineered, relative to the attacker.
This roughly matches my experience. For normal Powerplay activity, I use something like this (I've switched the utility scanners for more shield boosters since, as it turned out, I wasn't using them enough to justify carrying them around): https://s.orbis.zone/qFtU

With the exception of mining, I can carry out any PvE Powerplay activity in it - often multiple at once - at a reasonable if not necessarily fully optimal level of effectiveness, without having to switch ships. (Which is great and why I'm enjoying Powerplay so much: the less I have to touch the outfitting/shipyard interfaces the happier I am)

In a PvP context...
- anyone actually looking for and expecting PvP is going to be flying something with considerably more endurance (and especially, more resistances), so unless they're also completely terrible at it (which I hardly know in advance), there's no point in me hanging around to fight unless "get destroyed for a teleport to the station" is part of my plan.
- it certainly could very quickly take down the stereotypical "unshielded trader" - since there's no compromise on weapons and they aren't going to notice the lack of defences - but I've not seen anyone flying one of those yet (at least, not in any context where I'd have got merits for shooting them) and don't expect to in future either
- if I attack a similarly-equipped multirole, it would be reasonable for them to assume (since a scan won't tell the difference) that I've got rather more defences than I actually have. They therefore are most likely to try to escape rather than fight, and will succeed in doing so, which at least would be a quick win but probably not one which would matter at all for any Powerplay goal (and would at best give me 5 merits for scanning them if they were in a friendly system)
 
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I think power based signal sources should occasionally spawn with power NPCs in the higher threat level ones, sometimes enemy power ships.
It depends where you are. The game is set up so that you only get the enemy power ships of nearby powers. Out in my bit of Kaine space, that usually means Mahon or Winters (or both) ... never Antal or Torval or similar.

This particular system is so far out of the way of any other Power's space that - I checked quite a few signals - I never saw any unfriendly ships either in the signal sources or in supercruise, and the supercruise signal sources were always "wreckage signature" rather than any of the more explicitly combative ones.
 
It depends where you are. The game is set up so that you only get the enemy power ships of nearby powers. Out in my bit of Kaine space, that usually means Mahon or Winters (or both) ... never Antal or Torval or similar.

This particular system is so far out of the way of any other Power's space that - I checked quite a few signals - I never saw any unfriendly ships either in the signal sources or in supercruise, and the supercruise signal sources were always "wreckage signature" rather than any of the more explicitly combative ones.

Ah... yeah, our system is also in a bit of a safe space. Can be tricky to find appropriate signal sources there as well. Do on occasion though find power wreckage signals with a level 2-3 threat rating that has enemy power ships in it.
 
Would it be an activity where another player couldn't possibly attack you?

Replying to my own post, yes I know, bad form, but ethelred put a like on my post so I have to explain further and why I worded it like that, this would functionally make the activity identical to a player doing the same activity in solo or PG, so why not just let them do it in solo or pg since it's functionally the same?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
It's a thought experiment @Robert Maynard - perhaps to give PvP something exclusive other than CQC.

Don't worry about why, think about what would make you want to join in. Or not.
Which comes right back to the fact that such a feature would necessarily force players to play among those who they might not find to be fun to play among.

If the feature was not fun for those disinterested in the particular behaviours that Open facilitates then it is doubtful that it would entice those who don't much enjoy combat of any kind (of whom, from what Zac recently said, there are "a lot").
 
Welcome to winter.

To flip it somewhat - those CMDRs who play in Solo and/or PG - could there be an Open only activity (that for arguments sake would not be doable in Solo/PG and also somehow within the technical restraints of the game) that would tempt you to take part?

If so, what would it have to look like?
I'd default to open if the interaction design wasn't so absurdly stupid. You attack me. I'm supposed to escape. I should be rewarded if I win. Currently, winning the interaction is always worse than not having the interaction. I'm not going out of my way to interact with another player. Mouse vs Cat (vs Dog) works. Building around it is easy because the fundamental design of the interaction is already there. Instead, we have the current nonsense few are willing to tolerate.

Things would be kind of interesting if we could switch ships the way we switch weapons in games like GTA. Imagine there's a "fight club". You and I are both in it. You instigate a match by interdicting my python while I'm out running missions. I submit. This brings up a menu for me to pick a different ship. You're gonna go 1v1 with my goofy FDL that has nothing but short range, inertial impact burst lasers. Or maybe I'll pull out my FAS. I've not been in my vulture in years. I think I had it with 2 rapid fire, plasma slug APAs (just because I have a bunch of those sitting around). I have lots of weirdo builds that would probably be fun (or really annoying) for others to fight. My viper is nothing but fixed, phasing pulse lasers. "I'll papercut you to death bro. come at me!" I'm horrible with fixed weapons; so you're perfectly safe. lol.

We fight. I'm not risking my cargo, missions, bonds, bounties, etc. We're not trying to mix PvP and PvE. This is a fight to the death. No jumping out. None of the nonsense 4v1 stuff. No cringey people role playing as pirates. None of the arcade powerup stuff from CQC. You vs me. Maybe have a special ruleset like "shields don't recharge in fight club". I'm not trying to joust with you for 30 minutes. We can have any wager you want; but we're both wagering the same thing.

Once done; I go back into a menu, press a button and I'm back to whatever I was doing. I think it would be incredibly fun. I'm in fight club. You're not in fight club. You pull me. I still get to switch to any ship I want. I'll be in open. Let's go. I have a lot of mats and can think of lots of really stupid builds to make. lol. I'm gonna have a pvp keelback and it will be awesome.

...but as long as the devs think it's ok to let players force others into an interaction where every possible outcome is worse than not having the interaction? No. That's stupid and I'm not going to tolerate it.

I like the way this question is worded. I think many are trying to think of ways to get people to tolerate the current design and that's simply a non-starter because it's just so horribly worthless. Create something worth participating in.
 
Which comes right back to the fact that such a feature would necessarily force players to play among those who they might not find to be fun to play among.

If the feature was not fun for those disinterested in the particular behaviours that Open facilitates then it is doubtful that it would entice those who don't much enjoy combat of any kind (of whom, from what Zac recently said, there are "a lot").

Oh aye, all of that.

(And I'm only slight triggered by you using disinterested, OG meaning without bias, instead of uninterested) :)

But what about you, specifically - no dice?
 
Why "triggered"?

If such a feature were to attract those who default to PKing in Deciat / CG systems / AX instances then it'd be unlikely.

Ah completely off topic but my day job is linguistics related, and very much part of the descriptivist rather than prescriptivist school.

Most word meaning changes I can cope with but "disinterest" is one that always sticks out, again it's just me as disinterested to mean uninterested has been a meaning since at least the 70s. Just an old man shouting at clouds
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Ah completely off topic but my day job is linguistics related, and very much part of the descriptivist rather than prescriptivist school.

Most word meaning changes I can cope with but "disinterest" is one that always sticks out, again it's just me as disinterested to mean uninterested has been a meaning since at least the 70s. Just an old man shouting at clouds
Good point, well made. In which case "uninterested" would be more appropriate than "disinterested" in my previous post.
 
Well if we are doing thought experiments, try this one for the main menu;

Solo / Private Group / Arena

Now this one highlights the true value of open-world PvP in a mixed-mode game; nothing, it adds no value at all and wouldn't be missed.
You could still PvP in your PG's with people who want to PvP and there is no need for these endless threads demanding forced PvP on those who don't want it in an open mode.

Perhaps FDev should try my experiment, it could greatly improve forum QoL.
 
You know it can be quite frustrating to try and wing up with friends ?? Even with all the right settings ? If I can't wing up with friends I wonder how hard it would be to instance with anyone else ?
 
You know it can be quite frustrating to try and wing up with friends ?? Even with all the right settings ? If I can't wing up with friends I wonder how hard it would be to instance with anyone else ?

Never had much problem with it myself.

However, it does work both ways. If its hard to wing up for someone, it probably also means they don't instance well with others. In that case, playing in open, they will be less likely to instance with other players, including hostile ones.
 
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