Open PvE

[Yokoshima]

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Given that 1 is really not possible or designed to be part of this game, player retention rests on 2. Give PvE players the ability to meet friends and form bonds, and the player base will reward you with their loyalty.

I agree. It is not unreasonable to call sim games the "ultimate" form of RP in an RPG since that is the driving force to play. As it stands, if you for what ever reason don't like PvP (at least in it's current state) then most of left to play solo/with IRL friends. I go on the forums from time to time and it is only just recently (this thread) that I even discovered the mobius group. If there was an open-PvE, imho, I think it would just mean people migrating from solo/group play to that one, rather than people going from open to it. So the open-PvP population would not suffer too much. And honestly I think the thing that keeps people away from possible PvP zones are things like very mild penalties for killing players, inability to hull tank thanks to armor doing for what ever reason NOTHING to protect internal subsystems so once your shield pops it could be game over in just a few sec, etc.


On a side note though this game is still in it's infancy. Even with PvE it's really just RES hunting. Missions are boring and unrewarding. With the exception of trying to solo/duo SSSs there is no difficult but rewarding forms of combat. Once you get a viper you can pretty much do everything with ease. "Better" ships don't help much because the ceiling for combat is so low right now everything is a joke with the exception of PvP. I know an Open-PvE mode would not be really hard to make, but as it stands I am struggling to find the point of joining a wing beyond the social aspect of it.

 

[SiriusSeven]

it's funny that moderators will combine threads to monster threads but this nonsense thread is still trucking along on it's own. Open PVE already exists. It's like 99% of open gameplay unless you're looking for pvp action on purpose. this thread is pointless.

If you feel that strongly about this thread, then report it. The button is right there below every post.

As the OP, I'm biased, but I think this is a unique topic. It's an interesting look back and what the Kickstarter discussed, and there is very little talk on this thread of anything other than a hypothetical PvE mode.

 

[Mohrgan]

One could argue that the social aspect is the point. The larger the pool of like minded players you can group, the more the emergent aspects of the game will develop. Having all of the Co-Op players know they can find the experience they want right there on the sign in screen could do nothing but help the community.

 

[W0OCQCK]

If I am mistaken in my belief that "Open World" and "Sandbox" are two distinct (though perhaps related) concepts, then I apologize.

But, we've gotten off track for this thread.

Mobius now has 6200 members, and we've heard from a few people who only discovered mobius from this thread. I think there is substantial value is offering an official PvE option, given that many of us who read the forum have already voted with our feet and joined; and, given that Mobius is constrained by poor administration tools and is a single point of failure.

I don't think the player base will be any more divided than it is now. In fact, I believe it will reunite all those people who the PvP pirates constantly complain have run off to Solo.

Two things could keep us PvE-ers in the game once we "get our conda" (get tired of the grind)

1. The stuff we've created, built, and are proud of (and can keep building/extending/improving).
2. The friends we meet and our social connections

Given that 1 is really not possible or designed to be part of this game, player retention rests on 2. Give PvE players the ability to meet friends and form bonds, and the player base will reward you with their loyalty.

Very well stated, and right on the money, (IMO). FD, this is just the right thing to do. I don't think you would ever regret it.

 

[Simi Kusoni]

The galaxy map is just that. A reasonable recreation of our actual galaxy. You might surmise that the design of the environment wasn't intended to foster any particular tactics, just a open field to negotiate. Part of the attraction, for some, is that very difference from other games. Artificial elements as described are crutches for Devs and players alike. E: D has no reason to follow all those games to the very same point, it has been made to stand out, not conform.

ED doesn't really stand out though, and it doesn't really do anything new. The flight system is certainly very well made, but the rest of the game is a hollow shell.

And whilst yes, the galaxy map is a reasonable approximation of our actual galaxy it is by tweaking the methods of traversing it (and the resources found within it) that you could introduce bottlenecks and hotspots.

The crux of the request for a PvE-Open option is to help the Co-Op players coalesce into a larger, richer community. One big issue with the current Group system that is of great concern is that they are run by players. A Private Group, enjoyed by many is threatened if the owner has to stop playing for any reason. That home to the other members would be lost, a PvE-Open option would defend against that circumstance.

Yes, but in sandbox games giving the players PvE-only options has historically been met with only short term rewards. I cannot think of a single game that has introduced such an option and not had a corresponding drop in the size of their player base shortly thereafter. The example I compared this to is Eve, which is very well known for not caving to those requests and has survived for 13 years with a player base that still hovers around 40k concurrent users.

This issue would be confounded in ED as players can switch freely between modes, meaning that you would essentially end up with one mode where players farm their PvP ships and another mode where players simply go to grief and pointlessly fight each other without any real purpose. This doesn't create a "living breathing universe" as FD originally intended with the game: it creates an arcade game with the caveat that you need to grind to engage in combat.

A Co-Op mode would relieve the workload on the curators of having to administer the Group, allowing them more time to play, rather than work. Even with this some players won't want to join an official Co-Op mode, and that would be supported too, they can just carry on as is. I can see no better way to bring like minded players together than giving them an option when loading in to play in the largest pool of players as possible. Bringing the galaxy to life doesn't mean you should have to face the guns of other players if that's not your thing.

This is straying onto the open vs. solo topic, but the issue is that frequently open mode is their thing but the alternative modes are used in order to remain competitive with other players in terms of in game currency. Players can then swap to open to engage in pointless griefing/PvP.

Not only that but, as I said earlier in the thread, the churn rate amongst PvE-only games is significantly higher than in games that feature PvP and conflict. Very often that kind of conflict and difficulty is what serves to create the lasting player base of games like Eve, Darkfall etc. and by offering a method of bypassing it you are essentially removing it. I imagine ED are already having issues with this due to the current implementation of open/solo/groups, I very much doubt they are going to worsen things any more than they have to based on their kickstarter promises.

 

[W0OCQCK]

ED doesn't really stand out though, and it doesn't really do anything new. The flight system is certainly very well made, but the rest of the game is a hollow shell.

And whilst yes, the galaxy map is a reasonable approximation of our actual galaxy it is by tweaking the methods of traversing it (and the resources found within it) that you could introduce bottlenecks and hotspots.



Yes, but in sandbox games giving the players PvE-only options has historically been met with only short term rewards. I cannot think of a single game that has introduced such an option and not had a corresponding drop in the size of their player base shortly thereafter. The example I compared this to is Eve, which is very well known for not caving to those requests and has survived for 13 years with a player base that still hovers around 40k concurrent users.

This issue would be confounded in ED as players can switch freely between modes, meaning that you would essentially end up with one mode where players farm their PvP ships and another mode where players simply go to grief and pointlessly fight each other without any real purpose. This doesn't create a "living breathing universe" as FD originally intended with the game: it creates an arcade game with the caveat that you need to grind to engage in combat.



This is straying onto the open vs. solo topic, but the issue is that frequently open mode is their thing but the alternative modes are used in order to remain competitive with other players in terms of in game currency. Players can then swap to open to engage in pointless griefing/PvP.

Not only that but, as I said earlier in the thread, the churn rate amongst PvE-only games is significantly higher than in games that feature PvP and conflict. Very often that kind of conflict and difficulty is what serves to create the lasting player base of games like Eve, Darkfall etc. and by offering a method of bypassing it you are essentially removing it. I imagine ED are already having issues with this due to the current implementation of open/solo/groups, I very much doubt they are going to worsen things any more than they have to based on their kickstarter promises.

6000+ members in Mobius, your going to tell me anything might be different with them moving to a dedicated PVE open mode? Other than people not knowing about Mobius, would be able to find the PVE mode without going to the forums.

I think EvE was a total mess, if ED is smart they wont follow many things that they did. EvE did do a few things I liked, But forcing all the players together in one mode isn't something I think was done right. It's my opinion I'll stand by it.

You see the problem here is this. If anyone providing a spaced based MMO violates the EvE model, by say, "allowing an advertised PVE only mode". Especially in the case of this really cool space game, it's going to break everything else. In other words, why would any PVE oriented player consider playing any of those other games? If I were a PVE player I would never consent to joining their universes if it was mandatory that I become a "Rubber Duck" in there shooting gallery.

 

[Schattenbogen]

What really is the point of arguing against a PvE-Mode ? .. Those that don't want it don't have to use it.

Create a group called "PvE-Mode", problem resolved.
If peoples want to join him ...

BTW, playing in group is not always about PvE or PvP, it's about playing with the peoples you want to play with.
A number of PvE peoples don't behave better than a number of PvP peoples and I don't want to play with either.

 

[Simi Kusoni]

6000+ members in Mobius, your going to tell me anything might be different with them moving to a dedicated PVE open mode? Other than people not knowing about Mobius, would be able to find the PVE mode without going to the forums.

For one thing, it creates additional work for the development team for something that may actually be to the detriment of the game. They are already having issues with solo/open/groups, and I don't think they're going to put more work into worsening the problem.

It also makes interchangeable "PvE only" mode an official aspect of the game: something I'm not sure they'd be willing to advertise to potential new customers. As it stands I very much doubt that PvE mode was something they intended for groups, or that they expected a group like Mobius to form at all.

I think EvE was a total mess, if ED is smart they wont follow many things that they did. EvE did do a lot of things I liked, But forcing all the players together in one mode isn't something I think was done right. It's my opinion I'll stand by it.

Well as I said, Eve is one of the most successful MMOs of all time. Arguably the most successful sandbox MMO, and I think introducing a PvE mode would quite literally kill Eve's player base overnight.

You see the problem here is this. If anyone providing a spaced based MMO violates the EvE model, by say, "allowing an advertised PVE only mode". Especially in the case of this really cool space game, it's going to break everything else. In other words, why would any PVE oriented player consider playing any of those other games? If I were a PVE player I would never consent to joining there universes if it was mandatory that I become a "Rubber Duck" in there shooting gallery.

For one thing, it's their shooting gallery. Not there.

And as a PvE oriented player, I can assure you players pose a considerably more rewarding challenge than NPCs. As does trading in a player driven market, running items required for common fittings from a high sec trade hub out to numerous low/null-sec hubs is infinitely more challenging and, I would argue, satisfying than shuttling NPC purchased items between stations in a risk-free environment.

Eve was also not a "shooting gallery", I very rarely died in that game and never in any of my really expensive ships. That was despite multi-boxing wormholes, jumping in with multiple T3s and clones filled with 6% implants. Hell I even used to go hunting for 10/10 complexes in hostile null sec and ninja run them.

If you find NPC based combat/trading has more longevity, that's fine, but my point was that attempts at making sandbox games that follow that model of pitting players against NPCs with arcade-style PvP flags/arenas do not last very long and have a considerably higher churn rate than PvP-allowed sandbox games like darkfall, eve etc.

 

[SiriusSeven]

Create a group called "PvE-Mode", problem resolved.
If peoples want to join him ...

You mean exactly like Mobius, the fantastic PvE group with 6200 members?

There are 4 longterm problems with this approach:
- the group is not discoverable (you have to read the right forums)
- the admin tools suck (Mobius spent 40 hours of his life just hitting the Accept button, not counting banning players and arbitration)
- One player (not FD staff) is the single point of failure for an entire playstyle (what if he stops playing?)
- It's all dependant on an honor code (nothing stops people from doing PvP or griefing in Mobius)

 

[W0OCQCK]

For one thing, it creates additional work for the development team for something that may actually be to the detriment of the game. They are already having issues with solo/open/groups, and I don't think they're going to put more work into worsening the problem.

It also makes interchangeable "PvE only" mode an official aspect of the game: something I'm not sure they'd be willing to advertise to potential new customers. As it stands I very much doubt that PvE mode was something they intended for groups, or that they expected a group like Mobius to form at all.


Well as I said, Eve is one of the most successful MMOs of all time. Arguably the most successful sandbox MMO, and I think introducing a PvE mode would quite literally kill Eve's player base overnight.



For one thing, it's their shooting gallery. Not there.

And as a PvE oriented player, I can assure you players pose a considerably more rewarding challenge than NPCs. As does trading in a player driven market, running items required for common fittings from a high sec trade hub out to numerous low/null-sec hubs is infinitely more challenging and, I would argue, satisfying than shuttling NPC purchased items between stations in a risk-free environment.

Eve was also not a "shooting gallery", I very rarely died in that game and never in any of my really expensive ships. That was despite multi-boxing wormholes, jumping in with multiple T3s and clones filled with 6% implants. Hell I even used to go hunting for 10/10 complexes in hostile null sec and ninja run them.

If you find NPC based combat/trading has more longevity, that's fine, but my point was that attempts at making sandbox games that follow that model of pitting players against NPCs with arcade-style PvP flags/arenas do not last very long and have a considerably higher churn rate than PvP-allowed sandbox games like darkfall, eve etc.

Thanks for the spelling correction, I'm just not very good a writing.

I disagree with just about everything you said there. I think if CCP had a PVE only mode they would be doing much, much better now. I played that game for 10+ years, amassed a ton of stuff, including but not limited to (3) titans, (don't ask me to prove it, I don't care what you believe or disbelieve). I think the guy that runs the company is an utter moron.

Now you and I don't see eye to eye, that's pretty certain. But I do respect your opinion, and your right to give it. I'm not into arguing, so with no disrespect intended, I've said my piece, and will bid you good day. I wish you the best of luck in all your endeavors.

P.S. ya know it could be just as simple a renaming "Mobius" to "PVP Open", and offering it on the main menu. Enlist mods to police it, with "Mobius" in charge. Doesn't sound like that much work ro me.

 

[SiriusSeven]

As it stands I very much doubt that PvE mode was something they intended for groups, or that they expected a group like Mobius to form at all.

they always said they wanted emergent, player driven gameplay

 

[W0OCQCK]

they always said they wanted emergent, player driven gameplay

You know they really did, didn't they. We didn't have to kill a single mining barge.

 

[Distance]

It's less work in the long run to add a simple pve flag to the match making system.

Group mode wasn't really designed for a group the size of mobius, it was an easy way for a few friends to play together.

It's more work to add a server browser for the groups section, add in an extra flag for groups to be discoverable, add in better and multiple admin tools etc etc.

I'm sure they could add a simple flag tomorrow (read my other posts in this thread if you assume i'm slapping pve and pvp together by my usage of the term "flag").

The only additional work would be for adding weapons fire off rules. The only reason why mobius work is it's a small amount of players and it's honour based. Dropping in a simple flag as describe would be a magnet for griefers until they worked on the weapons off mechanics.

 

[W0OCQCK]

It's less work in the long run to add a simple pve flag to the match making system.

Group mode wasn't really designed for a group the size of mobius, it was an easy way for a few friends to play together.

It's more work to add a server browser for the groups section, add in an extra flag for groups to be discoverable, add in better and multiple admin tools etc etc.

I'm sure they could add a simple flag tomorrow (read my other posts in this thread if you assume i'm slapping pve and pvp together by my usage of the term "flag").

The only additional work would be for adding weapons fire off rules. The only reason why mobius work is it's a small amount of players and it's honour based. Dropping in a simple flag as describe would be a magnet for griefers until they worked on the weapons off mechanics.

Kinda sounds like you believe quite a few players might be jumping into that mode if it were offered. !00% agree about the Griefer thing.

 

[Distance]

Kinda sounds like you believe quite a few players might be jumping into that mode if it were offered.

Yep and as a 100% open player I think that's a good thing

If players can play in a pve mode to learn the game and make friends there's more chance that they'll come to open in future and not be put off from joining open, having a bad experience and then disappearing to solo/group forever.

The more players playing whether in open or a pve mode means more customers for the expansions and ship skins and more money for fd to keep the game going for longer.

If open players are arguing against a pve mode because they'll have less fresh meat to chew on then they haven't looked at the bigger picture. You should be able to shoot anyone at anytime for anyreason in open but when FD are telling everyone to play how they want to play then shove them all in the same mode then noone wins and is the reason for the majority of the junk/whining threads on the forum.

 

[W0OCQCK]

Yep and as a 100% open player I think that's a good thing

If players can play in a pve mode to learn the game and make friends there's more chance that they'll come to open in future and not be put off from joining open, having a bad experience and then disappearing to solo/group forever.

The more players playing whether in open or a pve mode means more customers for the expansions and ship skins and more money for fd to keep the game going for longer.

If open players are arguing against a pve mode just so they'll have less fresh meat to chew on then they haven't looked at the bigger picture. You should be able to shoot anyone at anytime for anyreason in open but when FD are telling everyone to play how they want to play then shove them all in the same mode then noone wins and is the reason for the majority of the junk/whining threads on the forum.

You know you and I see things in very much the same light. I agree with every thing ya said there mate. +1 ta ya

 

[Distance]

You know you and I see things in very much the same light. I agree with every thing ya said there mate. +1 ta ya

The only time a pve or any (other mode for that matter) will be a problem is in community goals like in Lugh. I'm sure FD used that as a test and took a lot of feedback from it so I expect war goals to change in future. Other than that I'm 100% behind and open pve mode/flag.

 

[Mohrgan]

It is fantasy to suggest offering a PvE-Open could be a detriment just because Eve didn't do it. WoW, the biggest mult-iplayer of them all has that very same option, they even let players level on a PvE server and migrate to a PvP server. How does the Eve example answer that? A thirteen year run hovering at 40k players doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement to me.
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You're assertions of what is more enjoyable has little bearing on the untold number of people who disagree with you. There is a schism between open and Solo/Group distinctly because people don;t share your views. I have enough stress in my daily life that I'm not usually interested in my leisure time be spent worried about someone, a person, who gets a thrill out of popping my ship. I mostly come to E: D to pound some NPC's and drive the as best I can.
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Just like CG's and contributions to them, the option to use the most effective mode is available to all. That levels the playing field. Earning credits in one mode and being ready for PvP when you want it is available to all. Why should a group of players personal conviction, Open only, dictate how other people play? Someone has a forum signature that says: 'I am not your content'. I can't stress more the truth of that statement.
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I would like to suggest that the Open-Only guys should want this PvE-Open option. With this you can remind the players in Open that if they don;t like the consequences of playing in Open, go Co-Op. Each and every Commander you meet would/should be willing and able to fight back. Isn't that what they want? The challenge of a real fighter, not some morsel in a T-6 trying to mine a big rock? What kind of danger do they want, theirs, or others?

 

[Distance]

<snip>

I agree with a lot of what you say but take a look at my previous posts in the thread regarding the modes/flags as the only thing I take issue is the "everyone has the same choice to play in open/solo/group". I only say this because the way the game is structured there is only one game, open is the main "mode" and the other modes are the "choice" to opt of of who you see in the game. They're not actually different modes but settings to the matchmaking server to determine who you see in game. This is the reason why they run all competitions in open because they must know that players can gain an advantage in a competition by limiting the amount of player interaction they encounter.

The problem isn't "everyone has the choice to play a different mode" but fd's lack of communication to how it works so everyone thinks they're playing a different "mode" when in reality it's just matchmaking pushing people in to different instances. The best example of this is the traffic report in a station where you see 100 T9's have passed through the system but you haven't actually seen a player in that system for the past 8 hours.

They've dropped the ball by not adding a pve mode/flag. I'm sure this was because they intended everyone to be in open and pvp being a rare occurrence but like many developers before them they didn't count on human nature.

They sold the game on being multimode but in reality it isn't. Adding a pve flag/mode is the best way of rectifying this.

All of the above doesn't negate anyone's way of playing either and isn't an argument for what the "best" mode is.

 

[Dave1235]

Very well stated, and right on the money, (IMO). FD, this is just the right thing to do. I don't think you would ever regret it.

This thread got me thinking about it, if it would be as simple as making a new group setting & a new option in the start menu then why not.

As we all know Mobius works on an honour system, a PVE mode could work the same but with the FD team (hopefully only one or two) dealing with any abuses that were reported, if it was an FD equivalent of Mobius I would hope it would not take much to recreate (possibly a tick box stating you realise PVP will result in a ban from the group for x amount of time, maybe 2/3 strikes and your out), if it involved a lot of work then I would say, good idea, I would like to see it at some point in the future but it can wait a while.