Open PvE

[Mouse]

They can all have their moment, I would even let them have a second moment if they can cover the fine, but they only ever get one "second chance" they won't be able to repeat it, 6 month ban first PK, life ban for the second, with a fine of 50% of your total worth, you cant change ships until you paid the piper if your bank account can't cover the fine.

I do think FD put some serious thought into this long before the first line of code was written. Gotta love their foresight.

oh I like that idea

 

[Jockey79]

Actually it is the exact opposite, More people have shared my experiences than have been "griefed' in those games, especially in FF XIV. You are trying to make it seem that your play style is the norm which is not. PVP in those games are controlled, but in EVE it isn't and it is where your play style thrives and why a lot of people left the game.

I've been playing MMOs since 1999, never had a problem with griefing either.
Heard a few horror stories, but they were few and far between - STO has had the most issues I've ever heard of and that was only a handful of people.

It does make me laugh how some folks try to big up the griefer groups, try to make them out to be more than they are.
They are just a handful of muppets who game hop and try to make it seem there is more of them than there actually is.

No decent Dev team would even consider letting the eejits dictate how to run a game and I don't see why ED should not have an Open PvE.
It would help new players get to grips with the game before jumping in to PvP and give non-PvP players a chance to meet people while playing.

 

[Mohrgan]

Which means.... What? Your experience is one out of millions. More people have experienced the opposite than share your fond remembrances. It's not exactly an isolated problem.



Not the point. My point is that nearly everyone in this thread who thinks that this is a good idea thinks that it is going to be just as effective as Mobius. In reality it is going to fall far, far short of their expectations because it is not going to be implemented in the way they envision it and it is going to draw attention not just briefly as you describe, but daily.

No, people expect it to be just as popular. I haven't heard anyone call for it so as to protected. They call for it to be recognized. For the recognition that Elite needn't be one of the two extremes.

Daily? Hardly, once the video gets made, the interest will fade, just as it has in all of your examples, and as many more as well. Your blatant fear mongering is no where near enough ammo to stop these requests.

 

[Dave1235]

<snip>
Not the point. My point is that nearly everyone in this thread who thinks that this is a good idea thinks that it is going to be just as effective as Mobius. In reality it is going to fall far, far short of their expectations because it is not going to be implemented in the way they envision it and it is going to draw attention not just briefly as you describe, but daily.

Please explain how if you get a lifetime ban after the second PK (with a 6 month ban after the first to give the group a break) people can "draw attention not just briefly as you describe, but daily.".

If they want more than 2 goes at PKing in PVE they need to buy another copy, I think FD would endorse that.

I don't think anyone accused you of greifing in FD, but I would like to understand your motivation for doing it in other games.

 

[PavelKCZ]

They can all have their moment, I would even let them have a second moment if they can cover the fine, but they only ever get one "second chance" they won't be able to repeat it, 6 month ban first PK, life ban for the second, with a fine of 50% of your total worth, you cant change ships until you paid the piper if your bank account can't cover the fine.

I do think FD put some serious thought into this long before the first line of code was written. Gotta love their foresight.

Problem is, that things are not so simple. Actually, you just described a perfect griefing mechanism for Open-PvE. Just imagine two griefers, both in cheap Sidewinder. They shoot on each other until their ships are almost destroyed. After that, they fly somewhere, where normal players are fighting NPCs. Griefer fly to the line of fire of innocent player, BOOOM the griefer is death (no big problem) and innocent player has his first PK experience and six month ban...

 

[Mouse]

I've been playing MMOs since 1999, never had a problem with griefing either.
Heard a few horror stories, but they were few and far between - STO has had the most issues I've ever heard of and that was only a handful of people.

It does make me laugh how some folks try to big up the griefer groups, try to make them out to be more than they are.
They are just a handful of muppets who game hop and try to make it seem there is more of them than there actually is.

No decent Dev team would even consider letting the eejits dictate how to run a game and I don't see why ED should not have an Open PvE.
It would help new players get to grips with the game before jumping in to PvP and give non-PvP players a chance to meet people while playing.

had someone attempt to grief me in SWG.. lit me on fire and stood back letting the fire create wounds.. sadly for them they didn't realize a musician can be a Tera Kazi master as well.. Kicked his butt, meditated erasing the wounds he game me then as his incapacitated timer ran out, Killed him and told him to next time not to try and pick on people.

 

[Mohrgan]

Problem is, that things are not so simple. Actually, you just described a perfect griefing mechanism for Open-PvE. Just imagine two griefers, both in cheap Sidewinder. They shoot on each other until their ships are almost destroyed. After that, they fly somewhere, where normal players are fighting NPCs. Griefer fly to the line of fire of innocent player, BOOOM the griefer is death (no big problem) and innocent player has his first PK experience and six month ban...

The brief investigation that anyone would expect would turn this up, and the correct culprits would be found out. It's all just another smokescreen. The 'it could be griefed' line of thought could be carried over to anything in life. If the potential for griefing was enough to stop an Open-PvE mode, how could anyone have considered open a doable thing?

 

[Morbad]

If the potential for griefing was enough to stop an Open-PvE mode, how could anyone have considered open a doable thing?

Because PvP, even fairly unconventional kinds, isn't a problem in Open.

 

[Mouse]

Problem is, that things are not so simple. Actually, you just described a perfect griefing mechanism for Open-PvE. Just imagine two griefers, both in cheap Sidewinder. They shoot on each other until their ships are almost destroyed. After that, they fly somewhere, where normal players are fighting NPCs. Griefer fly to the line of fire of innocent player, BOOOM the griefer is death (no big problem) and innocent player has his first PK experience and six month ban...

Easily solved by looking at what did all the damage then punishing the correct parties

 

[Mohrgan]

Because PvP, even fairly unconventional kinds, isn't a problem in Open.

You are going to make me type this, aren't you....

PvP is not griefing. Griefing is griefing.

 

[PavelKCZ]

Easily solved by looking at what did all the damage then punishing the correct parties

Of course, but there must be someone, probably full time work for not only one person, who will look at the logs. And how much is actually logged server side, with the P2P networking code ?

Being a Solo/Mobius player, I am not against Open-PvE, but it must be implemented very carefully.

 

[Dave1235]

oh I like that idea

It maintains choice and even lets PK's blaze their own trail (twice).

I am all for the menu having a quick popup you have to read once explaining the modes, and I mean for all modes and a confirmation box that said you read it and understand before it lets you in.

I do think (if the < 10% of players are forum members is correct) there is the possibility an open PVE mode could be 10 times the size of Mobius (the 10% is people that have forum accounts, not active ones so the numbers could be higher.

If FD sent out an email saying "Hi CMDR, we now have a PVE mode in the main menu and if a kidiot kills you outside of a CZ you get a full refund and he gets a ban" I think they may well entice back many players that left because the game couldn't deal well with kidiots, just a thought.

Edit, and some say we only argue and don't want to discuss things.

 

[PavelKCZ]

IMHO, for Open-PvE being possible, there must be implemented some mechanism like in Lineage 2.

Player A attack player B.

Player A is flagged "Atacker" for X seconds.

If no further attack from Player A - everything OK, probably friendly fire or accident.

If there is further attack from player A to player B then:
1) If player B does not fight back and is killed, no problem instant respawn with ship, bounties, explorer data etc. Player A is flagged as partial PK
2) If player B fights back - normal PvP with insurance after death

Player A will become gradually a full PK after let's say 10 killed players. Full PK is killed on sight by stations, NPCs etc. and will lost ship totally after death. No insurance, just back in nearest station without ship.

 

[Dave1235]

Problem is, that things are not so simple. Actually, you just described a perfect griefing mechanism for Open-PvE. Just imagine two griefers, both in cheap Sidewinder. They shoot on each other until their ships are almost destroyed. After that, they fly somewhere, where normal players are fighting NPCs. Griefer fly to the line of fire of innocent player, BOOOM the griefer is death (no big problem) and innocent player has his first PK experience and six month ban...

I would hope it would be noticed if one of the ships had no shields and 5% hull, I doubt its too hard to spot if you are looking for it.

 

[Dave1235]

Of course, but there must be someone, probably full time work for not only one person, who will look at the logs. And how much is actually logged server side, with the P2P networking code ?

Being a Solo/Mobius player, I am not against Open-PvE, but it must be implemented very carefully.

I think Mobius had ~4 PK's, I might be wrong but very few in around 9 months, 2 of them were a deliberate and planned attack.

Even if we assume the players or problems would be ten fold with a new mode, that is not a full time job, 40 players needing banning over 9 months is not a lot of work, also Robert put forward some points on how the system might be able to manage its self a few pages ago, worth a read.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Actually it is the exact opposite, More people have shared my experiences than have been "griefed' in those games, especially in FF XIV. You are trying to make it seem that your play style is the norm which is not. PVP in those games are controlled, but in EVE it isn't and it is where your play style thrives and why a lot of people left the game.

Nowhere in any of my statements did I say that griefing was the norm. I only stated, and proved, that there is no safe haven from it on a public server.

Of course a lot of people leave the game, because they don't know what they're getting into. That's expected. You have no idea what my style of play is, because if it was what you find on Eve I'd still be playing it, wouldn't I?

One of the most important lessons I've been taught in life is that if someone has more experience than you in a certain subject and offers some friendly advice, the wisest decision is to shut up and take it even if you think they are wrong.

I've been playing MMOs with Open PvP for over 20 years. I've been playing PvE MMOs for over 20 years. I've played Mixed MMOs for over 20 years. When one community is supported over another, initially, and that community is dominant in population, the smaller community's best bet at getting support for their style of gameplay is asking for the facilitation of being able to support themselves. When you guys ask for an Open PvE server you are putting your request and future support of any features implemented entirely at the mercy of FD's time, money, and patience. People acting like phalluses is an inexhaustible resource. Frontier's time and money are painfully finite.

One of the games I played 20 years ago was a MUD with full open PvP mechanics. Kill anyone, anywhere, no punishment beyond going to jail for a few minutes if you scrubbed them in town. The game had a PvE oriented player base despite the PvP mechanics, because they policed themselves. Murderers were hunted down and executed by the community on their first offense, if they continued to act out people would actively seek them out wherever they were and maim or kill them. Strip them of their possessions and blacklist them with every player merchant. The game is still alive and well after almost 25 years of being online, solely because of that community.

You guys? One whiff of multi-cannon powder and it's solo mode for the rest of the year. You have no one to blame but yourselves for Open play becoming a PvP community. You had every opportunity to police it yourselves and push the PvP players into Private groups just like the players in that MUD did 20 years ago, but instead you grabbed your blankie and ran to FD to cry and fuss and ask them to fix what wasn't broken. There is a reason your cries are falling on deaf ears. You already have the tools to fix the problem.

However, since you're not willing to fix the problem, your best bet is to ask them to fix what really is broken to help you in your pursuit of getting around the problem. The private group tools are abysmal and need refinement anyways. If you bent your efforts towards getting FD to beef up the private group system so that it made recruiting and maintenance easier, you would have a superior solution to Open PvE.

 

[Mouse]

Nowhere in any of my statements did I say that griefing was the norm. I only stated, and proved, that there is no safe haven from it on a public server.

Of course a lot of people leave the game, because they don't know what they're getting into. That's expected. You have no idea what my style of play is, because if it was what you find on Eve I'd still be playing it, wouldn't I?

One of the most important lessons I've been taught in life is that if someone has more experience than you in a certain subject and offers some friendly advice, the wisest decision is to shut up and take it even if you think they are wrong.

I've been playing MMOs with Open PvP for over 20 years. I've been playing PvE MMOs for over 20 years. I've played Mixed MMOs for over 20 years. When one community is supported over another, initially, and that community is dominant in population, the smaller community's best bet at getting support for their style of gameplay is asking for the facilitation of being able to support themselves. When you guys ask for an Open PvE server you are putting your request and future support of any features implemented entirely at the mercy of FD's time, money, and patience. People acting like phalluses is an inexhaustible resource. Frontier's time and money are painfully finite.

One of the games I played 20 years ago was a MUD with full open PvP mechanics. Kill anyone, anywhere, no punishment beyond going to jail for a few minutes if you scrubbed them in town. The game had a PvE oriented player base despite the PvP mechanics, because they policed themselves. Murderers were hunted down and executed by the community on their first offense, if they continued to act out people would actively seek them out wherever they were and maim or kill them. Strip them of their possessions and blacklist them with every player merchant. The game is still alive and well after almost 25 years of being online, solely because of that community.

You guys? One whiff of multi-cannon powder and it's solo mode for the rest of the year. You have no one to blame but yourselves for Open play becoming a PvP community. You had every opportunity to police it yourselves and push the PvP players into Private groups just like the players in that MUD did 20 years ago, but instead you grabbed your blankie and ran to FD to cry and fuss and ask them to fix what wasn't broken. There is a reason your cries are falling on deaf ears. You already have the tools to fix the problem.

However, since you're not willing to fix the problem, your best bet is to ask them to fix what really is broken to help you in your pursuit of getting around the problem. The private group tools are abysmal and need refinement anyways. If you bent your efforts towards getting FD to beef up the private group system so that it made recruiting and maintenance easier, you would have a superior solution to Open PvE.

I love how you assume that many of us for a PVE server and against your way of playing are new to MMO's.. Sorry Charlie but you are wrong. I've been PVPing and MMOing since MUDs such as Trade Wars, and MMO's like Ultima Online came out and dealing with PK jerks the whole time. I've spent my time in mindless PVP and even then at no time did I use PVP as an excuse to try and ruin others gameplay. My time of endless PVP is over, it is not something I want to do. I will agree with you on one thing, I've made the comment multiple times in another thread about those who play in open policing themselves. That they needed to fix the problem, but have met with denial.

 

[Mohrgan]

Nowhere in any of my statements did I say that griefing was the norm. I only stated, and proved, that there is no safe haven from it on a public server.

Of course a lot of people leave the game, because they don't know what they're getting into. That's expected. You have no idea what my style of play is, because if it was what you find on Eve I'd still be playing it, wouldn't I?

One of the most important lessons I've been taught in life is that if someone has more experience than you in a certain subject and offers some friendly advice, the wisest decision is to shut up and take it even if you think they are wrong.

I've been playing MMOs with Open PvP for over 20 years. I've been playing PvE MMOs for over 20 years. I've played Mixed MMOs for over 20 years. When one community is supported over another, initially, and that community is dominant in population, the smaller community's best bet at getting support for their style of gameplay is asking for the facilitation of being able to support themselves. When you guys ask for an Open PvE server you are putting your request and future support of any features implemented entirely at the mercy of FD's time, money, and patience. People acting like phalluses is an inexhaustible resource. Frontier's time and money are painfully finite.

One of the games I played 20 years ago was a MUD with full open PvP mechanics. Kill anyone, anywhere, no punishment beyond going to jail for a few minutes if you scrubbed them in town. The game had a PvE oriented player base despite the PvP mechanics, because they policed themselves. Murderers were hunted down and executed by the community on their first offense, if they continued to act out people would actively seek them out wherever they were and maim or kill them. Strip them of their possessions and blacklist them with every player merchant. The game is still alive and well after almost 25 years of being online, solely because of that community.

You guys? One whiff of multi-cannon powder and it's solo mode for the rest of the year. You have no one to blame but yourselves for Open play becoming a PvP community. You had every opportunity to police it yourselves and push the PvP players into Private groups just like the players in that MUD did 20 years ago, but instead you grabbed your blankie and ran to FD to cry and fuss and ask them to fix what wasn't broken. There is a reason your cries are falling on deaf ears. You already have the tools to fix the problem.

However, since you're not willing to fix the problem, your best bet is to ask them to fix what really is broken to help you in your pursuit of getting around the problem. The private group tools are abysmal and need refinement anyways. If you bent your efforts towards getting FD to beef up the private group system so that it made recruiting and maintenance easier, you would have a superior solution to Open PvE.

You have no more experience than I. I wonder if that MUD was The Realm. You don't have the market cornered on experience. And the 'shut up' comment. Pure hubris.

None of your arguments are more than a simple warning of Murphy's Law. Get over it. Open-PvE is still a damned good idea. I'll offer to moderate the complaints as a volunteer myself. Things, silly outbursts, can be overcome super easily. Nothing you have said is any reason not to have an Open-PvE option. It's just some fear mongering to try and dissuade players from a good idea.

 

[Jockey79]

You have no more experience than I. I wonder if that MUD was The Realm. You don't have the market cornered on experience. And the 'shut up' comment. Pure hubris.

None of your arguments are more than a simple warning of Murphy's Law. Get over it. Open-PvE is still a damned good idea. I'll offer to moderate the complaints as a volunteer myself. Things, silly outbursts, can be overcome super easily. Nothing you have said is any reason not to have an Open-PvE option. It's just some fear mongering to try and dissuade players from a good idea.

I have to agree, a true Open PvE mode would make it a lot harder for some player groups to behave like morons towards other players.
And it would help those not interested in PvP to get that social interaction I keep reading about in the Solo/Group/Open mega thread.

 

[PavelKCZ]

I think Mobius had ~4 PK's, I might be wrong but very few in around 9 months, 2 of them were a deliberate and planned attack.

Even if we assume the players or problems would be ten fold with a new mode, that is not a full time job, 40 players needing banning over 9 months is not a lot of work, also Robert put forward some points on how the system might be able to manage its self a few pages ago, worth a read.

I am affraid that 4 PKs in 9 months in Mobius is not a good argument. Firstly, Mobius is not open group, you must wait before you can play in this group and you will get (probably) an instant ban from the group if you are griefing. This fact itself means that 99% of jerks will not try in the Mobius at all.
Secondly, there is (must be) a wast majority of players in Solo/Groups who do not have problem with griefing at all, because they are beyond the grasp of griefers. Also, there is a lot of players in Open, who maybe was griefed, but simply do not know about Mobius and think that there is no escape from griefing, except solo.
If all those players will come to the Open-PvE, they will become very attractive target for griefers, who will infiltrate without any problem, because it will be OPEN-PvE. So, the amount of griefing attempts will raise exponencially. Every MMO needs several full-time GMs. AFAIK, there are no GMs active in ED.

So, I am sure that for Open-PvE the game itself needs to implement some automatic mechanisms against griefing, better than bounty which can be easily cleaned by death. And better than automatic PK ban.