General Overhauling Engineering: A Family's Request for a Streamlined Upgrade System

[Jack Winter]

Oh well, thanks to them engineers i got to learn lot of game stuff.

That's my take on it too, it's not purposely done to annoy players...

On my new alt I really hadn't played all that much and all the bubble engineers except 2 more or less unlocked themselves... Once I'm back behind my hotas I'm gonna take the neutron highway out to colonia in a phantom with some cargo space. Once back in the bubble the last 2 will be unlocked.

 

[Jack Winter]

He's happiest if you provide some fries & a shake with the escape pods...

I suspect that he runs a side business with the Kumo..

 

[V'larr]

IMO, it's hard nut to crack for Frontier. To me the mat gathering gives me a purpose while playing, if it was made buy for credits I'd be at a loss with what to do with my playing time. I like shooting things and then hovering up the mats as a reward. Otherwise what would be left for me to do, explore, sightseeing, BGS gardening, PvP, or maybe some shenanigans like SRV antics, canyon racing, etc..

I can see that it might be frustrating for some players, on the other hand (again IMO), getting to G3 isn't all that arduous and makes quite a difference. Ought to be good for anyone that wants to play the game and doesn't have much time. Of course, it's bound to be frustrating for a completionist that wants it all very fast...

Not sure how Frontier could possible please the players on my side of the argument as well as the players on your side. Maybe letting us sell mats and and engineered modules and ships would satisfy both sides, on the other hand as noted that would open up selling stuff for real world money outside of the game, but in certain ways fleet carriers have already opened up that particular can of worms.

You yourself have a sizable list there of the things to do in the game that aren't hoovering up mats... just to remind anybody that's forgotten that the mat gathering process of Engineering deliberately gets in the way of actually going and doing said things.

I myself put off finishing getting my Triple Elite decal for at least 4 years because I was put off about the grind and various other issues (which still haven't been addressed, to be clear).

I don't think it's a hard nut to crack at all, or even that it takes much imagination to recognize the problem and come up with solutions to address it. Maybe giving players like yourself a reason to do activities besides the "slow collection trickle" gameplay loop? I mean, the ideas are already here on the forums and have been for many years, such as in the thread I linked. The ball's been in Fdev's court this whole time. It's on them for not doing anything with it and remains up to them whether to do anything with it.

Otherwise, we're just going to keep seeing would-be enjoyers of the game wind up like the OP in this thread: disillusioned and fed up.

 

[V'larr]

Nope, it's not.
And i not seen any response being toxic or hostile in this thread, except maybe in your posts.

Yeah, I'm done dealing with you. This crosses the line for me, personally. Encouraging and excusing toxic behavior is not it.

 

[V'larr]

Huh, still don't have them all unlocked, and don't even ask me about the Colonia Engineers, don't even know where they are let alone the unlock requirements.

inara.cz has all the pertinent info, they're pretty trival aside from the journey out there - with one exception:

Engineers - Guide: Fast way to find Occupied Escape Pods near Colonia

Here’s a tip if you are looking for Occupied Escape Pods to unlock Etienne Dorn in the Los system. It’s a fast way to collect them. 1: Equip your ship with a Hatch Breaker Limpet Controller, a Collector Limpet Controller and a good number of limpets. I bought 60. 2: Go to the Luchtaine system...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Good for getting some extra pinned blueprints & a smidge lighter on life support. edit: as was pointed out already, yeah, SCB upgrade valuable too

 

[V'larr]

Relevant: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/non-engineered-ship-versus-high-level-npc.622166/

That's... not a good build. Like, at all.

5 fixed cannons are only useful against hull and require a lot more effort to control engagement distance to properly use - and especially to aim while also maneuvering against a maneuvering target. The ship has no answer to shielding and SCB spam.

This is a noob trap, and recommending newer players use FA-off is bad advice too. It's missing guardian reinforcement packages which are a very easy unlock, and using dual chaff is a waste on a ship this large compared to using more shieldboosters.

 

[Rat Catcher]

just to remind anybody that's forgotten that the mat gathering process of Engineering deliberately gets in the way of actually going and doing said things.

Just giving the usual reply: It may do for you...

Mats (both data & manufactured) can be collected as mission rewards so no getting in the way there - as well as passive scanning of ships around stations etc. will gather low grade data, raw mats can be collected while mining, if one doesn't wish to actually pick them up while chugging around in a SRV - then Mat traders will drag one away from whatever one might be doing (or if one is sensible, find a mission to give reason to go to their location) and permit one to trade the mats gained just by playing, into ones needed for engineering.

Naturally, the unlock requirements for some engineers might be distateful to one, such is life...

Of course, such actions do rely upon one actually playing more than just a single activity - something some may also find distateful...

 

[V'larr]

Just giving the usual reply: It may do for you...

Mats (both data & manufactured) can be collected as mission rewards so no getting in the way there - as well as passive scanning of ships around stations etc. will gather low grade data, raw mats can be collected while mining, if one doesn't wish to actually pick them up while chugging around in a SRV - then Mat traders will drag one away from whatever one might be doing (or if one is sensible, find a mission to give reason to go to their location) and permit one to trade the mats gained just by playing, into ones needed for engineering.

Naturally, the unlock requirements for some engineers might be distateful to one, such is life...

For me - and every other person who's expressed frustrations similar to the OP's across the lifespan of this game since the first beta of Engineering, the number and depth of said frustrations being evident already in the engineering feedback thread, for example.

Doing what you suggest means prolonging your time spent in the game, expressly not doing the things you would otherwise choose to be doing in the game. You're playing the game just to get ready to play the game. That's the game playing you, the wrong way around. Low grade mats are quite literally worthless when a single g5 mat is worth hundreds of lower ones - it's flatly and simply a waste of time and effort to do things the long and arduous way... which ought to be self-evident.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Doing what you suggest means prolonging your time spent in the game, expressly not doing the things you would otherwise choose to be doing in the game

Ok.... If you say so....

My own suggestion has always been to make engineering purchased with credits - not that gathering materials is onerous to me, but there are some here who cannot tolerate playing the game in any way other than their own way, which is fine, if frustrating, I'm sure.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

That's... not a good build. Like, at all.

5 fixed cannons are only useful against hull and require a lot more effort to control engagement distance to properly aim & use. The ship has no answer to shielding and SCB spam.

This is a noob trap, and recommending newer players use FA-off is bad advice too. It's missing guardian reinforcement packages which are a very easy unlock, and using dual chaff is a waste on a ship this large compared to using more shieldboosters.

It worked, showed it was possible and that's all that matters. I've also known players use FA off from day one of playing the game who have gone on to play for years.

I see nothing constructive in what you're saying.

 

[Brrokk]

For me - and every other person who's expressed frustrations similar to the OP's across the lifespan of this game since the first beta of Engineering, the number and depth of said frustrations being evident already in the engineering feedback thread, for example.

Doing what you suggest means prolonging your time spent in the game, expressly not doing the things you would otherwise choose to be doing in the game. You're playing the game just to get ready to play the game. That's the game playing you, the wrong way around. Low grade mats are quite literally worthless when a single g5 mat is worth hundreds of lower ones - it's flatly and simply a waste of time and effort to do things the long and arduous way... which ought to be self-evident.

I think this is just the basic difference between an arcade-style game, where you just switch on and dive in to immediate vanilla play, and a career-long game where you gather stuff to get access to other stuff so you can upgrade stuff and somehow progress in stuffness.

There may be games which tread the line between the two approaches and blend them, but I don't know of any good examples. And multi-player online games are almost always of the second kind.

That second kind of games always attracts complaints about grind, but they're also the only kind some of us (including myself) enjoy playing long-term.

<Edit> A fine example from Lord of the Rings Online: it was realised that there were many well-designed instances for characters at particular levels, but once you had levelled past them they were wasted content. So the devs hit on the idea of scaling them so you could enjoy playing the instances again. They added an "instance finder" so that parties of players could link-up and teleport into an instance together. Commensurate rewards were needed, so the loot included tokens which could be bartered for gear afterwards. ... Players complained that getting the gear was grindy!

 

[Rat Catcher]

I think this is just the basic difference between an arcade-style game, where you just switch on and dive in to immediate vanilla play, and a career-long game where you gather stuff to get access to other stuff so you can upgrade stuff and somehow progress in stuffness.

I recall, on this forum some time ago, a poster ranting that engineering was terrible as they couldn't 'progress' just by doing combat...
If one is determined to only do a single specific activity, yes, engineering is going to be frustrating - after all, why should one be 'forced' to do things they are not interested in doing in order to be able to do the thing they are interested in 'better'?

A topic that will never go away, unless every 'upgrade' might be bought with credits - and then, I'm sure, there will be some coming here to complain about the 'grind' for credits to buy them

 

[V'larr]

It worked, showed it was possible and that's all that matters. I've also known players use FA off from day one of playing the game who have gone on to play for years.

I see nothing constructive in what you're saying.

"It worked" and "good advice for a new player to try using and doing themselves" are not synonymous.

Saying FA-off is fun and worth trying out? Sure. Good advice for someone trying to learn the game? Hardly.

There is a great deal of misinformation or ill advice that floats around this game, which only serves to add to the kind of bad-taste impressions that cause new gamers to give up and leave, without even really understanding why they encountered difficulty and trouble.

Youtubers are especially guilty of this with Elite, which is doubly bad when these videos so often come up in basic web-searching results.

If you can't glean something constructive in the specific criticisms I've provided, I can't really help you further.

 

[V'larr]

I think this is just the basic difference between an arcade-style game, where you just switch on and dive in to immediate vanilla play, and a career-long game where you gather stuff to get access to other stuff so you can upgrade stuff and somehow progress in stuffness.

There may be games which tread the line between the two approaches and blend them, but I don't know of any good examples. And multi-player online games are almost always of the second kind.

That second kind of games always attracts complaints about grind, but they're also the only kind some of us (including myself) enjoy playing long-term.

<Edit> A fine example from Lord of the Rings Online: it was realised that there were many well-designed instances for characters at particular levels, but once you had levelled past them they were wasted content. So the devs hit on the idea of scaling them so you could enjoy playing the instances again. They added an "instance finder" so that parties of players could link-up and teleport into an instance together. Commensurate rewards were needed, so the loot included tokens which could be bartered for gear afterwards. ... Players complained that getting the gear was grindy!

There are good career games, and bad ones. The description you gave is of the wrong kind, the sort that's been ingrained into people from decades of terribly designed MMORPGs that try to turn your life into a second job with the game as your primary daily purpose, just to have any measure of progress.

That, I don't think, is really a redeemable argument for trying to force a system like that in a place where it needn't belong - and shouldn't, according to the original design ideas for engineering being specific tweaks & customizations to our ships, instead of MMORPG-style "heavy grind for heavy gains".

I will agree, there are a great many such games that fall under this definition, and it's a real travesty - particularly in the way it's conditioned multiple generations of gamers now to think that it's perfectly normal and acceptable, when it really shouldn't be and never ought to have been.

I'm not saying striking the balance is easy. But if you can't do it right, then you shouldn't force the issue and then leave it essentially dormant for the next half dozen years either.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

"It worked" and "good advice for a new player to try using and doing themselves" are not synonymous.

Saying FA-off is fun and worth trying out? Sure. Good advice for someone trying to learn the game? Hardly.

There is a great deal of misinformation or ill advice that floats around this game, which only serves to add to the kind of bad-taste impressions that cause new gamers to give up and leave, without even really understanding why they encountered difficulty and trouble.

Youtubers are especially guilty of this with Elite, which is doubly bad when these videos so often come up in basic web-searching results.

If you can't glean something constructive in the specific criticisms I've provided, I can't really help you further.

This shouldn't have to be said, but we are where we are.

Of course you can't destroy the toughest NPCs in the game if you are a new player. If you could, you're not a new player. The point is that it is possible to get there and you don't have to spend your whole time in game trying to get engineering materials.

You saying that the build could be improved just supports the one point I wanted to make if we're being honest. Glad we agree on that.

 

[Brrokk]

There are good career games, and bad ones. The description you gave is of the wrong kind, the sort that's been ingrained into people from decades of terribly designed MMORPGs that try to turn your life into a second job with the game as your primary daily purpose, just to have any measure of progress.

That, I don't think, is really a redeemable argument for trying to force a system like that in a place where it needn't belong - and shouldn't, according to the original design ideas for engineering being specific tweaks & customizations to our ships, instead of MMORPG-style "heavy grind for heavy gains".

I will agree, there are a great many such games that fall under this definition, and it's a real travesty - particularly in the way it's conditioned multiple generations of gamers now to think that it's perfectly normal and acceptable, when it really shouldn't be and never ought to have been.

I'm not saying striking the balance is easy. But if you can't do it right, then you shouldn't force the issue and then leave it essentially dormant for the next half dozen years either.

See, I don't really agree that there are good and bad examples of the progression games. OK, there are differences, but the basic problem is that some players always look for the most "efficient" progression. Unless all paths are identical they'll find one that's more "efficient" (in their terms) than the rest, and rinse that for all it's worth. Then they get bored and say the game is grindy, while being unable to understand how others are having a good time playing it.

The fact that players doing that think the game is grindy doesn't actually demonstrate that the game is grindy. Being susceptible to this complaint is a fundamental feature of the career type of game.

 

[nemolomen]

Hi everyone, sorry I'm late to the party...

(In case you're still around @Daniel Dusk and @Momba Dawn...)

Yes, engineering has issues. For the first year or so I didn't even bother with it. I just played the game and had fun, haphazardly collecting materials along the way.

When I did start engineering my ships, it was using whatever materials I had on hand and whatever engineers I happened to have already unlocked. I didn't really worry about it. I just played the game and had fun.

Lately, 3.25 years and over 4600 hours in game, I engineer every ship I buy, using whatever materials I have on hand and whatever engineers I've unlocked and pinned their blueprints. Unless I'm building something very specific, I haven't been applying experimental effects. I'm just playing the game and having fun.

More recently, I've decided to unlock a few more engineers, and I'm working on that now, in between just playing the game and having fun.

If you haven't noticed by now. I prioritize just playing the game and having fun. For me, fun includes, but is not limited to (and in no particular order): Mining, signal chasing, space combat, anti-xeno ops, puzzles, ground combat, missions, exploration, transportation, BGS manipulation, anarchy faction support, salad hunting, SRV flying, goofing off teaming up with friends, occasionally participating in community goals, etc...

Elite Dangerous is the only game I play. Eventually I'll get around to unlocking all of the engineers and ships and modules and alien tech and whatever else there is to unlock, some day...

And, specifically for the OP. Elite is not a one size fits all game. It has many different activities, of which combat is only one. If you want to focus on that alone, and as others have said here, it will be painful for you as you will need to do a variety of activities to get the materials you need for the high grade engineering. If this is not your cup of tea, I understand that.

In the end, all we really have is the game as it is, at any given point in time, warts and all, take it or leave it. Hoping for changes that you want is annoying at best and downright aggravating at worst. Some commanders are, seemingly, better off NOT playing this game if it is not enjoyable to them. In that case, please play something that you do enjoy and have fun with it.

o7, see you in the black...

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

I think this is just the basic difference between an arcade-style game, where you just switch on and dive in to immediate vanilla play, and a career-long game where you gather stuff to get access to other stuff so you can upgrade stuff and somehow progress in stuffness.

If one is determined to only do a single specific activity, yes, engineering is going to be frustrating - after all, why should one be 'forced' to do things they are not interested in doing in order to be able to do the thing they are interested in 'better'?

This misses the point on why systems where you "do a thing to get better at the thing" can be great - as you do the thing and get better at it or more powerful the experience itself changes and stays fresh.

If it's disjointed like in Elite and you end up going from G0 to G5 in a single engineer visit you miss out on the intermediate steps and the experience is limited to a binary "unengineered" and "fully engineered" endgame state. Try to imagine that in any other game to see how it would rob you of a lot of the fun.

The irrelevant activities done to gather mats between those two states stand out as busywork more than they would if you passively gathered mats while doing other stuff. No you can't gather mats in any meaningful way while just passively doing stuff despite what people say. If you could the then suggestions would be "up the amount of materials we passively gain while doing random crap", why is it never that?

The fact that players doing that think the game is grindy doesn't actually demonstrate that the game is grindy.

That's still a problem if the devs are bad at hiding the grind and controlling the psychological perception of it.

The material gathering itself doesn't really change as you progress either except maybe being able to get around the galaxy faster - limpet engineering doesn't improve looting speed/efficiency in any way and you can't get a bigger cargo scoop. Resource gathering isn't usually a strong point in MMOs or "career" games either when it's just mining resource nodes or chopping down trees or scrapping loot for raw meterials, but that's usually kinda just there to have alternative non-combat gameplay - something games were/are horrible at until recently with the rise of what i'd call the "work sim" genre (though it's maybe too varied for that). In Elite it's not the alternative and it's not optional the way people actually seem to play the game with all the grinding for mats. The way people go about gathering mats is not going to change even if it's not the most fun way to do things unless FDev changes it.

There's probably a good ratio of time a player should spend improving their gear vs just playing the game which Elite gets wrong, partly because everything in Elite takes so long that any sense of timing will suffer. Most games also aren't as open or can't be circumvented with skill as much so when things get harder you know it's time to maybe look at upgrading your gear as a side activity unless you want the challenge (its subtly self-balancing). Without those kinds of guideposts the simple "all or nothing" approach to engineering makes more sense rather than trying to figure out what fraction of engineering is the most fun right now without even knowing what's out there.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Something else I'll add is the first ship I used seriously for combat and the thing that did most of the work in unlocking my first Cutter.

Coriolis EDCD Edition

A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous

s.orbis.zone

It's absolutely riddled with basic mistakes and even the choice of ship is questionable here (Do NOT copy this). That's before we consider that it's basically unfinished because I couldn't be bothered unlocking Selene Jean and Lei Cheung, among others.

Absolutely dominated every combat scenario I put it in (PvE only of course).

 

[amigacooke]

In the end, all we really have is the game as it is, at any given point in time, warts and all, take it or leave it.

If that was the case there shouldn't be a suggestions forum, as that suggest that Frontier wants suggestions.