General Overhauling Engineering: A Family's Request for a Streamlined Upgrade System

[DemiserofD]

So why is limpet collecting so slow? According to the 200m/s speed it shouldn't take more than 15s to collect a thing at max range (still too long)

Normally-deployed limpets move at 60m/s, not 200m/s. They only go 200m/s if you target something specific, but that uses up the limpet after a single collection. If targeted limpets were returned to your hold, that would be a more acceptable method, but as it currently stands, it isn't good enough.

Add to that the opportunity cost of sacrificing two optionals just to collect things, and it becomes far too annoying to need to do things that way. Materials are a reward; they should not punish players to collect them.

Hence, grappling hooks. Simple, quick, and effective, that should be the mantra.

 

[nemolomen]

In the end, all we really have is the game as it is, at any given point in time, warts and all, take it or leave it.

If that was the case there shouldn't be a suggestions forum, as that suggest that Frontier wants suggestions.

Positive, well formed, constructive and useful suggestions should always have a place in the discussion. In this case they do. (Some here don't treat it that way though, but, admittedly, it's not all one sided...)

I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

What I said/meant is, all we have at any given moment is the game as it is at that moment. Wishes will always be in the future., You can't play the game as it will exist, or may possibly exist, in the future, you can only play what you have in front of you. That is the game at that moment in time.

And if it isn't your cup of tea...

...

In the end, all we really have is the game as it is, at any given point in time, warts and all, take it or leave it. Hoping for changes that you want is annoying at best and downright aggravating at worst. Some commanders are, seemingly, better off NOT playing this game if it is not enjoyable to them. In that case, please play something that you do enjoy and have fun with it.

o7, see you in the black...

Perhaps I could have phrased it "Some commanders may, seemingly, be better off NOT playing if they don't enjoy it as it exists, from their perspective, at that moment in time, with all of its current features, bugs and lack of whatever."

But my point is that "I" hope they can find a game, or something else, that they do enjoy and have fun playing it.

DISCLAIMER: I never said my way was best or even right, only that it is my way, and I don't automatically expect everyone to agree with it.

 

[Brrokk]

Normally-deployed limpets move at 60m/s, not 200m/s. They only go 200m/s if you target something specific, but that uses up the limpet after a single collection. If targeted limpets were returned to your hold, that would be a more acceptable method, but as it currently stands, it isn't good enough.

Add to that the opportunity cost of sacrificing two optionals just to collect things, and it becomes far too annoying to need to do things that way. Materials are a reward; they should not punish players to collect them.

Hence, grappling hooks. Simple, quick, and effective, that should be the mantra.

Grappling hooks, on a spaceship?

I consider the limpets we have to be a good hard-SF solution.

If the time taken is a problem, we can use multiple A-rated controllers, launch several limpets at once, position the ship to recover the returning limpets efficiently, etc. It's not something we have no control over; there is skill to using limpets.

 

[nemolomen]

... Me, interdictions by npcs (when you can easily evade them most of the time, they are a time waster) and non consensual PvP.

Steve

Did you mean, "...non consensual EvP."?

 

[Hellrider]

and then stop and relog farm an HGE

No, thanks.
I prefer checking, what dropped some spicy, big pirate in conda, and collect it, if dropped some g4/5
even it+missions in long shot can provide enough materials. Fact that relog exploit exist doesnt mean, that I have to milkt that each time, when I need any single material.

 

[DemiserofD]

Grappling hooks, on a spaceship?

Sure. Why not? Seems an odd quibble?

It really doesn't matter how many limpet controllers you use; the issue is how fast limpets move, and how long it takes for them to deploy, and the fact you need to be stationary for them to return.

All of those issues should be eliminated.

 

[DemiserofD]

No, thanks.
I prefer checking, what dropped some spicy, big pirate in conda, and collect it, if dropped some g4/5
even it+missions in long shot can provide enough materials. Fact that relog exploit exist doesnt mean, that I have to milkt that each time, when I need any single material.

This is a bad take, but it's not your fault. The problem is that your instincts tell you it should be better to grab the loot after a kill; after all, it only takes a few seconds, what's the harm? And if the game were well designed, you'd be right.

But in reality, it takes FAR too long for limpets to do their job. As a result, you would have far more fun if you ignored that wreckage entirely and just enjoyed yourself killing pirates, and then did all the boring grind as quickly and efficiently as possible.

You can boil it down to simple math. Which would you rather do? Spend 45 minutes picking up all your materials, or spend 15 minutes?

For me, the answer is clear.

 

[Brrokk]

Sure. Why not? Seems an odd quibble?

It really doesn't matter how many limpet controllers you use; the issue is how fast limpets move, and how long it takes for them to deploy, and the fact you need to be stationary for them to return.

All of those issues should be eliminated.

I can eliminate one for you now: you don't have to be stationary, you can help the limpets or line up on the next target. In other words, the time you're dismissing as "waiting" is actually gameplay.

You should also be checking the contacts tab to make sure your limpets are going after the most valuable things first if in a hostile environment, and positioning your ship to protect them

Have you just not used limpets enough to develop the skills?

 

[Rat Catcher]

All of those issues should be eliminated.

They won't be, though...
The same complaints & suggestions have been raised ever since I joined the forum - and were likely being uttered before such.

FD are certainly aware of the limited discontent over engineering - they already reworked it in the past. I seriously doubt the game will get any additional modifications for the forseeable future - I'm ok though, I can enjoy my own play within ED until the plug is pulled - another year, maybe?

 

[DemiserofD]

I can eliminate one for you now: you don't have to be stationary, you can help the limpets or line up on the next target. In other words, the time you're dismissing as "waiting" is actually gameplay.

Have you just not used limpets enough to develop the skills?

Is it really necessary to get passive aggressive? I've played this game for something like 6000 hours; I KNOW how limpets work, ins and outs, in every respect. Yes, there are ways to moderately improve their performance, but ultimately, you're going to be better off just going afk for a minute and doing something more worthwhile.

I want this game to be the best it can possibly, be, and to me, the biggest way to do that is to make the gameplay experience, especially for newer players, as smooth and streamlined as possible, eliminating any unnecessary source of discomfort. And there is no reason for the game to be the way it is. Immersion, yes. Wasting our time, no.

They won't be, though...
The same complaints & suggestions have been raised ever since I joined the forum - and were likely being uttered before such.

FD are certainly aware of the limited discontent over engineering - they already reworked it in the past. I seriously doubt the game will get any additional modifications for the forseeable future - I'm ok though, I can enjoy my own play within ED until the plug is pulled - another year, maybe?

The more we talk and try to find good solutions, the more likely good changes will be implemented. Yes, the chances are always low, but I want to help as much as I can, and as one of the top 1% of players in terms of playtime, I feel like my experience is valuable and worth including.

 

[SteveWW57]

Did you mean, "...non consensual EvP."?

I do not want other players to waste my time.

Steve

 

[Rat Catcher]

The more we talk and try to find good solutions, the more likely good changes will be implemented

Well, if they haven't been implemented in the last 6.6 years I have been playing - and the topic has never rested in that time - it is extremely unlikely that FD will spend any money, more than is already budgeted, in modifying the game to appease a minority who remain discontented with virtually every aspect of the game.

If FD survives the next year, and there is a massive increase in their income from ED (maybe more people buying EDO?) maybe then there is a chance - but at least one of those caveats are incredibly unlikely to happen - so, essentially, requesting change is probably as useful as shouting at the sky.

 

[Rat Catcher]

as one of the top 1% of players in terms of playtime, I feel like my experience is valuable and worth including.

Yeah... I have well over 7,000 hours played too - but, oddly, don't consider my experience puts me in any position of importance with respect to this game and its developers.

 

[nemolomen]

I do not want other players to waste my time.

Steve

My bad, I misread that...apologies...

 

[Rat Catcher]

I do not want other players to waste my time.

If you are not in open, they won't...

Unless you are in my squadron's PG and we are at a loose end, naturally...

 

[SteveWW57]

My bad, I misread that...apologies...

No problnemo

Steve

 

[SteveWW57]

If you are not in open, they won't...

Unless you are in my squadron's PG and we are at a loose end, naturally...

But I would like to meet others to see hello or even joint adventures. Having to dodge hostile CMDRs is not for me, but I am amenable to arranged ground CZ action at times.

Steve

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Grappling hooks, on a spaceship?

I consider the limpets we have to be a good hard-SF solution.

The limpets which you can break conservation of mass by synthesising, whose controller modules have really bizarre mass/performance curves, and which despite their ability to flawlessly penetrate shield systems somehow don't have an "explosives delivery" or other "hull unrepair" variant? They're about as hard-SF as the rest of Elite Dangerous, I suppose.

Still, that does suggest an alternative solution to the grappling hooks:
- all materials become data materials (raw = isotope data, manufactured = component data, [current] data = performance data)
- any situation which would currently drop a raw or manufactured material adds it to your appropriate data inventory instead
This also solves the "why can't we just buy iron?" immersion problem (or makes the existing solution clearer, perhaps).

 

[aRJay]

I've talked about this in the past. It's a good idea in theory, but in practice, it just doesn't make sense mathematically.

Example 1: You go to a Hazrez and fight pirates, collecting mats after each kill. You spend about 45 minutes fighting, and 15 minutes collecting, and collect about 5 units of G5 mats.
Example 2: You go to a Hazrez and fight pirates, ignoring the mats after each kill. You spend 45 minutes fighting, and then stop and relog farm an HGE for 5 minutes after spending 10 minutes looking for it. You collect 15-30 units of G5 mats.

Which one is more fun and less gamey?

I've actually tested this ingame before. It takes a significant amount of time to navigate near a wreck and collect materials after a fight. It also takes a significant amount of cargo space, because point defense typically picks your current ones off. What ends up happening is, you end up sacrificing small chunks of time which, in aggregate, end up being worse than just grinding the mats from HGEs or other grindy sources.

Bear in mind, this is the WORST CASE for the HGEs, because it assumes you're leaving before it expires. If instead you go grind that HGE for its full duration, you can easily get 100+ G5 mats, limited only by how fast your PC can fire up Elite again.

In theory, the purpose of HGEs is to sacrifice fun for the sake of faster resource collection overall. IE, you get loads of G5 mats, but you don't get any combat. But the reality is, you actually get BOTH: Both more mats AND more fun/combat, in the same amount of time.

That's a problem.

In my opinion the best way to do HGEs is to fly to the first one in the system, collect everything you can, then fly to the next one and do the same. After you run out of HGEs go for the other Emission sources, logging to the menu isn’t fun logging out of the game is worse. Logging out should happen at the end of a session or because of a crash anything else you aren’t playing the system you are gaming it.

Immersion is always good, but waiting is never good. This is, after all, a game; there should never be a point where the best thing to do is nothing at all.

It is a game with aspects of a sim so yes there are times when waiting is the right thing to do.

But that's how the limpet system is. You can't really even try to scoop manually at the same time, because it will just interfere with the limpets and slow them down.

Here's the deal; materials are rewards. Rewards should be a universal good. There should be absolutely nothing annoying about getting a reward.

---

Engineered Materials.​

Engineered Mats are easy. Your cargo hatch should have an automated grappling hook that fires a high-speed wire at nearby engineering materials and sucks them in. This does not take any mad science or alien technology, just a wire with a claw at the end.

How long is that wire?
And how many of them are there?

The reason this works for materials and not for cargo is because cargo is much heavier. Canonically, your SRV can hold hundreds of units of any material, while it can only hold 4 tons of cargo, so canonically, materials weigh barely anything, and this is justified. Players would simply fly PAST materials(no need to slow down), open their cargo hatch(while pointing the right way, of course), and it would fire out as many hooks as necessary to reel them all in. Rather than taking 60+ seconds and dedicated modules, it would happen almost instantly, and players would get to engineering with a significant stockpile already accumulated.

OK ignore the questions the wire is just an IWB effect.

Data Materials​

Data materials are gonna be really hard to fix. They're acquired in a stupid way, for starters. Shield scans are absurdly easy to get and you barely even notice they're happening, to the point they might as well not exist at all. Wake scans, by contrast, are frustratingly grindy to acquire, because wake scanning is never used in normal gameplay. And the data you get from Horizons settlements are even worse. Data Mats are a total mess in every way. The fact 90% of people get all their mats from the Jameson Crash Site is an abomination.

But as far as fixing them is concerned, I haven't the foggiest idea. It seems to me it would take a complete revamp of many types of gameplay to make getting data mats more common, but the problem is, none of those things are particularly fun.

I guess I'd start by letting you scan wakes just by flying through them. They should be a slight shimmer in space, not just a target, and when you fly through, you get the data, but not the wake scan. A wake scanner would let you scan them from a distance, instead. That at least lets you get some data without needing to waste a utility slot on a useless wake scanner.

So the major difference to what we have is that the wake scanner is built in not a utility mount module. With a minor difference that you can get some info by flying all the way to a wake.

Leave shield scans as-is. They suck, but at least people get them.

Settlement scans are terrible, and I have no idea how to fix them.

Are you talking about targeting the masts at settlements from the SRV?

​

Raw Materials.​

For the most part, raw mats are fine atm. They're not great, but you get some via mining, and collecting from brain trees/etc isn't terrible. My only change would be making the scooping process not require targeting. Just drop the scoop and run them over. Would make collecting much less tedious.

And much less discriminating getting everything in the range of the scoop rather than the thing you wanted, or are you proposing a different mechanic depending on whether you are scooping mats or cargo?

Make these changes and mats would already be in a much better state, then we can work from there.

 

[DemiserofD]

Well, if they haven't been implemented in the last 6.6 years I have been playing

That's simply not true; they've progressively made better and better content as time has passed, and they've made progressive tweaks to various aspects of the game.

The Thargoid Spires are an excellent example of how they've progressed.

Yeah... I have well over 7,000 hours played too - but, oddly, don't consider my experience puts me in any position of importance with respect to this game and its developers.

Why? You objectively know more about this game than the vast majority of players, and even many devs, so your knowledge and experience is valuable. I don't always agree with your opinions, but I do respect your gameplay knowledge. The Devs' job is to analyze what bothers the most players, and then combine as much knowledge as possible to shape the ideal solution.

You disagree that there's a problem; that's fine, and if the devs agree with you, no changes are needed. But if the devs think there IS a problem, then the way forward is shaping their solution to be the best it can be. And our extensive knowledge of the game can make a difference.

And personally, I do think there is a problem. It annoys me, and that is a valuable data point for Fdev to consider.

---

Which one is more fun and less gamey?

Personally, the one with less grinding. I don't discriminate; all grinding is bad, in my opinion, no matter if it comes in little chunks or big.

Given that Grinding is one of the biggest complaints about this game, I try to shape my suggestions to address those complaints.

It is a game with aspects of a sim so yes there are times when waiting is the right thing to do.

Hard disagree. No game should create times where the best thing for the player to do is go afk or log out. It's bad game design, sim or not.

Are you talking about targeting the masts at settlements from the SRV?

Yep. Honestly the gameplay there is fun enough, it's just too targeted on that one thing. If it had more depth it'd probably be better. Maybe they could merge it with odyssey ground combat or something.

And much less discriminating getting everything in the range of the scoop rather than the thing you wanted, or are you proposing a different mechanic depending on whether you are scooping mats or cargo?

Yes, it would specifically scoop materials, you would still need to target cargo, just like in space, where mats would autoscoop, while cargo would need to be targeted and/or use limpets.