General Overhauling Engineering: A Family's Request for a Streamlined Upgrade System

[Rat Catcher]

You’re a veteran; most of this is obvious to you, and I hear you,

I suppose I'm in that box too...

but could you put yourself in my shoes and remember what it felt like to be new?

... I didn't even know about engineers / engineering until I was almost a year playing - not being one who watches videos on how to play games, I learned through playing.
But, I am a bit of a pack rat and used to visit USS / HGE sources on my travels, so had lots of materials effectively 'by accident'.

Same with Raws, lots picked up by mining, driving around in the SRV - just playing for me, not according to how "I should play"...

 

[Northpin]

I strongly disagree. Advising newer players to go straight to 'challenge mode' for combat is not good.

I'm advising new players to learn to fly, not to jump directly in a CZ

Basically to invest their gaming time flying their ships, learning the ropes in the process, instead of wasting their game time and burn out while grinding engineers/materials based on YT grind guides.

Quite a difference if you ask me.

 

[Rat Catcher]

In order to get something done, you need to do the exploits.

It is a comment like this that really does illustrate that not playing for around 7 years can make a poster very ill-informed...

Completely and utterly incorrect - why not try playing the game, then making accurate observations? It really has changed since 2016...

 

[tolm]

Since somebody asked… I quite like engineering!

• I like the feeling of “progress” it gives over and above just buying whatever the “best“ module is for each slot
• I like the choice of enhancements: despite some clearly being the defacto option, over time I’ve found uses for various blueprints on on the same weapons
• I like the fact that it gave me confidence to go back into places I’d previously had a “sub optimal” experience

That last one is probably the key one for me. My combat experience went something like:

• Tricky defence against pirate interdictions whilst on missions
• Low then Medium then High RES
• Haz RES … yikes, get outta here!
• CZs … much death (my own …)
• Engineering (shields + weapons) + Guardian SRMs
• Back into Haz RES + CZs ... success!

Plus now, of course, my mission running ships are more than capable of defending themselves without it being stressful!

I only started playing after engineering was added to the game so I dunno if Haz RES / CZs would have been something I could have done before that but, like I said, I liked the feeling of progress and the way it opened up more (combat) areas of the game.

As for material gathering …

• For Data, I’d just been playing for a while so largely used what I had passively built up. Nowadays I take missions that pay out high-level Data and trade for what I need
• For Raw Materials, I visited the shard sites and traded down. I don’t consider this an “exploit” and it was a nice little trip: saw some systems and scanned some planets on my way
• For Manufactured it’s scooping up stuff from RES kills, HGEs or - again - missions for high-grade and trading

The material traders are a game changer. Even with the somewhat harsh ratios, it just means you can run missions and trade for whatever you need in very reasonable timescales.

 

[Jack Winter]

I can't say that I either like or dislike the materials gathering process..

I played a year or two before I started engineering, what frustrated me is that every time I went to engineer something I seemed to quickly be out of needed mats. I then decided to fill up on mats and unlock all the engineers, which led to youtube guides and relog grinding..

I must admit that I didn't really pay much attention to POIs, nor was it obvious to me to bring collector limpets and to fit a wake scanner. I was just enjoying flying my ships and shooting at stuff.

The second time around was much easier as I quickly fitted a limpet controller and wake scanner, hoovered up what I could and scanned everything I could. Also did some mining and went out to the crystal shards to fill up on G4s. What I didn't have was easily gotten trading full bins for what I needed.

What I do find somewhat annoying is that if I'm looking for something specific that there is no easy way to get it. Maybe being allowed to haggle for the mission awards to get what I need would be a good solution.

This time around I was satisfied with G3/G4 in the beginning and also use the excellent OMH to make sure I have what I need before going to an engineer. https://github.com/jixxed/ed-odyssey-materials-helper

On a tangent, I really find the emission POIs more than boring, and would really like to see some more challenge when visiting them. Maybe other ships already there to gather or protect, pirates jumping in to contest my collection, etc.

 

[PiLhEaD]

....allow all materials to be traded between players; this way, those who want to explore can trade with those of us who want to blow up ships and rocks.....

I like the way NMS has the Anomaly as a single hub for all active players, where quite a lot of requests/offers/gifting goes on. It's an entirely moot observation tbh.

In other news, I think that this forum needs more squeeee.

Hooray for everything \o/

 

[Rat Catcher]

Since somebody asked… I quite like engineering!

You are a sick puppy...

Oddly, so do I!

I don't mind spending a few hours flying around USS / HGE sources, or scanning every ship / wake around an Agri station - because it means I can try out 'silly' engineering rather than 'META', which does me fine.

I never got into the 'relog game' so managed to stay interested in just playing for fun.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

I'm advising new players to learn to fly, not to jump directly in a CZ

Basically to invest their gaming time flying their ships, learning the ropes in the process, instead of wasting their game time and burn out while grinding engineers/materials based on YT grind guides.

The best way to learn to fly is to already have an engineered ship that's more survivable and perhaps more agile. As a beginner having an edge and a bigger margin of error helps - being able to power through stuff if you do make mistakes helps too since you might not have to go back for repairs after every fight. This isn't just about "winning" - with an unengineered ship you might spend a disproportionate amount of time licking your wounds instead of actually doing the activity you're trying to improve at. Elite just loves wasting your time like that.

This is how most game tutorials are structured to give you a safe environment to practice at your own pace - something that elite due to it's sandbox nature doesn't really have, sure some enemies that spawn will be lower rank if you're starting out but nothing is guaranteed and you might not even know what the difference is.

I think I made a point in another thread about how the engineer unlocks and material gathering stuff is so bad people are legitimately suggesting new players just avoid engineering as much as possible either by just engineering to G3 or flying unengineered ships. That's pretty much the most damning condemnation of the whole system I can think of even when it's just intended as sincere advice. But using "you can just skip engineering" to deflect criticism of such a broken system is deeply misguided.

Since somebody asked… I quite like engineering!

Very few people disagree with the outcome of engineering where your ship gets more powerful. There's some complaints about stuff not being varied enough and the meta being too stale with many useless/trap choices.

On a tangent, I really find the emission POIs more than boring, and would really like to see some more challenge when visiting them. Maybe other ships already there to gather or protect, pirates jumping in to contest my collection, etc.

Funnily enough ambushes can happen in lower grade emissions but HGEs are completely safe.

 

[Jack Winter]

Funnily enough ambushes can happen in lower grade emissions but HGEs are completely safe.

Yes I know, but it's not very frequent.. I also really dislike the POIs where the pirates just wait to picked off one by one without acting like a wing.. But I suppose they might be good for new players.

 

[Jack Winter]

I also really like to engineer my ships, it's nice to plan a new ship and then go engineer it and see what it can do and how it can be improved. It also gives an opportunity to set a goal and go achieve it.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I think I made a point in another thread about how the engineer unlocks and material gathering stuff is so bad people are legitimately suggesting new players just avoid engineering as much as possible either by just engineering to G3 or flying unengineered ships. That's pretty much the most damning condemnation of the whole system I can think of even when it's just intended as sincere advice.

It is certainly in my case intended as both sincere advice to the player and damning condemnation of the system when I recommend targeting G3 as a general improvement level.

As I've said before, Odyssey personal equipment engineering is in a much better place, because Frontier really did pay attention to all the ship engineering feedback and generally didn't repeat the same balancing and design mistakes there.

 

[ubermick]

You liked a game, but then when you read some other peoples thoughts you changed your mind. Okeedokee.

Its fine to not like the game. Lots of people don't like it for a range of reasons. It is a niche game. But to have a complete reversal of opinion because of what some anonymous internet people say is a testament to how easily people change their minds based on what others say.

While ED has its issues, it is a 10 yo game, and overall it is still fantastic. A vast number of complainers on these forums have +100 hrs gameplay. Complaining is fun, and for some people it is an activity that makes them feel good. Heck, there are some regulars on this forum that haven't played ED for many years and complaining is their hobby.

Play the game if you like it. There are lots of ways play, and lots of activities to choose from. Don't get hung up on people that say you need to grind grind grind. Its not true. Keep in mind it is a large scoped game, and it is intended that major accomplishments take a long time.

This post quite honestly should be a sticky to the discussion forum, and be required reading for anyone who plays the game be they new to the galaxy, or seasoned (and salty) veteran. Bravo, sir.

 

[Northpin]

Odyssey personal equipment engineering is in a much better place

Odyssey engineering could be better if it weren't for global material caps.
But it is as it is, and while i can fill up my bins (while playing) to engineer several ships at once at some point in the future - i cannot do that for Odyssey engineering. If i want to do 1-2 sets of weapons and 1-2 suits, i have to grind the materials and do the engineering one piece at a time.

That's my main gripe with EDO engineering.

I think I made a point in another thread about how the engineer unlocks and material gathering stuff is so bad people are legitimately suggesting new players just avoid engineering as much as possible either by just engineering to G3 or flying unengineered ships.

Nope, i never suggest new people to avoid engineering - i suggest them to avoid YT grinding guides. I suggest them to tackle engineering as they play and not burn out in grinding YT guides.
Ship Engineering, even at G3, is a massive improvement.

Personally i find a single ship engineering unlock rather nasty and tedious - the Lei Cheung's 50 markets requirement. And maaaaybe Lori's Dangerous requirement - but i never got fussed about it since she's really skippable.
Everything else is quite palatable and even instructive.

 

[Shurimal]

particularly the materials gathering bit

My two cents about material gathering:
Relog grinding is boring and annoying. Been there, done that, don't do it anymore unless absolutely necessary (eg I resorted to relog grind for the Settlement Defence Plans because either the drop rate is so abysmal, or I just didn't stumble upon the right circumstances for them to drop at settlements).

What I do instead is:

• For data, the shield scans etc generally pile up on their own when frolicking around in RES-s hunting pirates. Then I just crosstrade for the more useful stuff. The most useful one, Modified Embedded Firmware, is a mission reward and easy to get. The Datamined Wake Exceptions are also easy to gather if a bit boring--but not more boring than mining platinum.
• For manufactured material, I just have a 3C ops limpet controller on my bounty hunting setup. 4 collectors pick up all the dropped materials in a RES quickly while I have the necessary downtime between engagements anyway, scanning for the next target and recharging my shield. I generally don't go hunting for materials unless I need some very specific grade 5 and then I don't do the relog either, just fly from HGE to HGE until I have enough of what I need. Since I like flying around in supercruise manually it's not more boring than MSFS.
• For raws, you really only need very few of them on a regular basis (iron, carbon, phosphorus, tungsten, selenium and some others). A yearly or bi-yearly trip to crystalline shards keeps me covered. I usually add this as a waypoint to an exploration journey towards the rim.

Overall I don't find collecting materials grindy, but I also don't buy and modify a new ship every week--I mostly just swap weapons and some internal modules around if I want to test a new loadout and only build a new ship if I need it for a regular activity. And even then, my old Phantom can usually do it with only a few adjustments; most of the purpose-built ships I have are gathering dust in my carrier hangar.

Now, this reminds me--I need to go and modify a 7A power distro with weapon focused engineering, see how much it helps with the heat management on my 4 modshards AX rig.

 

[ubermick]

The best way to learn to fly is to already have an engineered ship that's more survivable and perhaps more agile.

It most certainly is not.

As a new player, the opponents you meet in the game are balanced towards giving you a "fighting chance". If a new player ignores the actual playing of the game, and instead focuses on maxing out their bank balance and their engineering, then you have players with all the toys and none of the experience. Now their engineered ships are crutches, and they're easily blowing away the mostly harmless NPCs that they encounter. Over the course of time, the NPCs are getting better and better as the player ranks up, but the player themselves is just sitting there jousting with them because "Hur dur, they can't hurt my meta ship that one of the Youtube lads taught me to build in a weekend by grinding."

Eventually that catches up with them - if they last that long in the game, after being taught that "acquiring bits ad nauseam is the way to play" and just burning out.

 

[Shurimal]

Hur dur, they can't hurt my meta ship

I thought the Corvette was the best combat ship ever once I got it. Sure thing, it's nearly unkillable in a RES and deletes pirate lord 'Condas in half a minute.

Then there was a certain CG involving a certain CEO of a certain ship manufacturer who went full John Galt and needed to be reminded of the stark realities of the world. During that my fully grade-5 "meta" 'Vette met someone in and FDL in a CZ and the stark realities were also reminded to me: a ship does not fly itself and firepower means jack all if you can't get a gun solution.

Ditched the "unkillable" 'Vette sometime after because it's a boring brick that doesn't encourage learning good piloting. It's much more rewarding to take a non-meta ship and prevail against all odds.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Odyssey engineering could be better if it weren't for global material caps.

I'd agree in general - especially for data, where there is a huge list of items, about half of which have no use at all, so it requires periodically going through and checking "is there any point in keeping this?" (and back when I was doing on-foot stuff regularly, the question was more "is there any point in keeping more than a few of these?" as I certainly was happy not to have sold my previously useless cocktail recipes)

It is mitigated somewhat by the main material-heavy bit of the upgrading being part of outfitting rather than strictly engineering, so you don't necessarily need a huge stockpile of most of them as you can always upgrade each step as soon as you get the materials together for it, but it could certainly do with a higher cap on Data at least.

Personally i find a single ship engineering unlock rather nasty and tedious - the Lei Cheung's 50 markets requirement. And maaaaybe Lori's Dangerous requirement - but i never got fussed about it since she's really skippable.

Lei Cheung's requirement is I think one of the most interesting ones - if you're following a step-by-step unlock guide or powerlevelling a new alt you'll almost certainly run into it. If you're just wandering around doing stuff as an uninformed beginner you'll probably get to 50 long before you even hear the name Lei Cheung.

Lori's is just weird - by far the most time-consuming unlock in the game, for precisely one new set of blueprints that isn't available from another (non-Colonia) engineer and isn't completely pointless: G3 rather than G1 SCBs. And, admittedly, if you're not at least Dangerous in combat, you won't be getting any use out of that upgrade anyway, but still.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Now, this reminds me--I need to go and...

... engineer a Courier for Bounty Hunting!

Of course I'm not biased!

 

[Northpin]

Lei Cheung's requirement is I think one of the most interesting ones - if you're following a step-by-step unlock guide or powerlevelling a new alt you'll almost certainly run into it. If you're just wandering around doing stuff as an uninformed beginner you'll probably get to 50 long before you even hear the name Lei Cheung.

I always had problems with him since i like to settle in a system and do all my stuff there, build rep, get allied - not the wanderer type so... yea.
Even when i started the first time - when i got to unlock Lei Cheung i think i had less than 15 markets out of his 50 required.

 

[Jack Winter]

Odyssey engineering could be better if it weren't for global material caps.
But it is as it is, and while i can fill up my bins (while playing) to engineer several ships at once at some point in the future - i cannot do that for Odyssey engineering. If i want to do 1-2 sets of weapons and 1-2 suits, i have to grind the materials and do the engineering one piece at a time.

I've come up with a way to mitigate this. For the assets I trade them up to the most expensive in each category. For goods I don't pick up the junk and mostly keep those that are useful (occasionally I sell any surplus). For data I try to keep a stock of 20 of the useful ones.

I'm also in the process of building up a similar stock on a carrier to act as a depot for my alts or friends in case they'd need something.

On the main account I try to keep the same and just sell most of the surplus at 100x markup, it goes relatively quickly and also brings in billions.. Though there are some mats that I either avoid picking up or that I just sell to a station bartender as everyone has enough and it won't sell at 100x.

Like this I'm in a good position to engineer a couple of suits or weapons whenever I feel like it, at the most I'd have to pick up some data, but as I have stock on a carrier, it seems unlikely that I'll ever be in the position that I can't just engineer whatever I want right away.

I just take missions that give 5x data or MIs, and if I happen to come across stuff I just nick it when no one is looking, or all are dead..

It's a pain when you have to chase 10 of a specific data, but if you just play and keep an eye on the stock levels and what you might need, then it's really no hassle at all. Of course I play quite a lot, so someone else starting out will be in a different position.