Overshooting while Approaching Planets and Stations

[CptXabaras]

Is there any at least demi-realistic background to overshooting, e.g. in physics or rocket science? Or was it invented only to annoy people like so many other "features" of this game?

Cheers, Eric

Throttle down to 75% at 7 second distance from your target. This way you won't overshoot it.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Sure, instant cargo loading/unloading and instant escape pod recovery on ship destruction are obviously there for gameplay reasons. Although the exact same arguments could be made for a supercruise autopilot, or autolanding on planets, so it's the issue of inconsistent gameplay decisions that's the problem here.



If by "argued out" you mean players told FD that certain game mechanics didn't work well, but they went with them anyways? Then sure, I suppose they were "argued out" but they certainly weren't addressed. The issue here is that we're still stuck with a set of very arbitrary and very inconsistent game mechanics that don't even stay consistent with previous decisions on gameplay issues. For example, FD decided that we should lose NPC pilots on ship destruction because "more grind" somehow makes the game better? Yet we don't lose Engineered weapons because reasons? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.



The topic of this thread was the inconsistent supercruse acceleration/deceleration which led into a larger discussion of other unnecessary and annoying game mechanics. It's hardly been hijacked.



Unfortunately they aren't due to be released for a few more years so at the moment Elite is the only space-sim game on the market, although I've already started decreasing the time and money I've been spending on Elite and have started spending it elsewhere.



Yes, some things won't change, but many things can.

Take a look at gimbals, they're completely reworking them for no particular reason other than "metrics" and ignoring other major problems with the game. They can easily put that effort into improving mission rewards or multiplayer or powerplay instead, but they would rather force players to play the game a certain way instead of listening to balanced feedback from the player community.

As long as the white knight segment of the playerbase takes whatever FD gives us and loudly proclaims that it has no flaws then the game is only going to keep getting worse instead of better.

If you're expecting me to reply to this post in any other way than to relate to the OP's post then you are sorely mistaken.
Your idea of a larger discussion is yourself adding other issues into what was a simple request on how things relating to supercruise work.
Nothing you quoted above has anything to do with that topic. It does, however, relate to you spamming this thread with things that concern you which are largely off topic.
I tried to telll you the error of your ways but meh, waste of time.

This thread is about the OP's comment and not what you added to it.

You have the freedom to create your own posts so go do but let this one be about the topic presented and not about your concerns.
Thanks.

 

[dynamicbob]

overshoot and then throttle back around

 

[Lucian667]

Few more for the ignore list here but seriously guys pollute your own threads this thread here got way out of hand very quickly and I haven't seen the OP in ages.

Not just targeted at this guy but I've noticed that - particularly in this forum - lots and lots of people seem super keen to inform everybody that they're adding somebody to their ignore list or quite often even exactly WHO had the good fortune of being added and most painfully, exactly why they were added, quite often in excruciating detail. Like anybody gives a flying crap.

News flash guys, nobody gives a rats @$$ who you add to your ignore list or especially why. Please just be merciful to us and keep it to yourself, there's enough tedious noise on this forum without adding to it with intimate details of your bloody personal ignore list. Thank you for making the world a slightly better place.

 

[Jimbodiah]

It's not just pressing 75%... I have the throttle set to blue which automatically decreases speed a long time ahead, yet the FSD spins out of control sometimes. It will actually speed up the FSD even if you press X to cut it off. It happens once every 8-10 times you approach something for me.

I'm sure FD will say "It's a feature, not a bug".

 

[Siranui]

It's not just pressing 75%... I have the throttle set to blue which automatically decreases speed a long time ahead, yet the FSD spins out of control sometimes. It will actually speed up the FSD even if you press X to cut it off. It happens once every 8-10 times you approach something for me.

You're approaching via large gravity wells, by the sounds of things. Fly an open approach, instead of skimming past the planetary mass, or nearby moons.

I'm sure FD will say "It's a feature, not a bug".

I really dislike the prevalence of blaming 'bugs', rather than thinking 'I wonder what I might be missing'?

 

[babelfisch]

Well I see the white knights are at it again.

And I see that you don't have any idea what you are talking about again. Nice that the same old stereotypes still apply.

 

[GunnerBill]

Although I've never actually timed this I am fairly sure it's quicker (if your ship has good SC agility) to go in "hot" overshoot and turn back in on a station than to run the long slow down to the drop.

You are also less likely to get interdicted doing this as the NPC a) wont catch you up while you are slowing and b) when you do you'll be turning too hard for them to make the tether.

 

[Arindor]

I appreciate the whole gravity malarkey, but I've never understood why it also happens with USSs. For something small, they must have an extremely large mass for you to fall foul of their gravity wells as your ship suddenly accelerates past them, despite being at low throttle. As an aside, I would like to use reverse throttle in SC rather than just decelerate.

 

[babelfisch]

I appreciate the whole gravity malarkey, but I've never understood why it also happens with USSs. For something small, they must have an extremely large mass for you to fall foul of their gravity wells as your ship suddenly accelerates past them, despite being at low throttle. As an aside, I would like to use reverse throttle in SC rather than just decelerate.

I've never seen my ship accelerating when I set throttle to 0. It doesn't even accelerate when I set it to 75% after decelerate assist kicks in.

 

[Cdr Voorheez]

EDITED

 

[Notwyn]

Not just targeted at this guy but I've noticed that - particularly in this forum - lots and lots of people seem super keen to inform everybody that they're adding somebody to their ignore list or quite often even exactly WHO had the good fortune of being added and most painfully, exactly why they were added, quite often in excruciating detail. Like anybody gives a flying crap.

News flash guys, nobody gives a rats @$$ who you add to your ignore list or especially why. Please just be merciful to us and keep it to yourself, there's enough tedious noise on this forum without adding to it with intimate details of your bloody personal ignore list. Thank you for making the world a slightly better place.

Ok.......

 

[Darkfyre99]

Is there any at least demi-realistic background to overshooting, e.g. in physics or rocket science? Or was it invented only to annoy people like so many other "features" of this game?

Cheers, Eric

Because the supercruise mechanic is much more complex than most people give it for. The most popular "tutorial" on how to supercruise, "point your nose at the target, and set your throttle to 75% at 7 seconds from your target" is probably the worst method out there. The method increases the number of interdictions you suffer, and is guaranteed to take the most amount of time, both from the inefficient flight path (even at 100% throttle), and from the even more inefficient braking technique. Even overshooting and looping back is more efficient than the "75% at 7" method.

Every star and world out there has a mass shadow, which interferes with the performance of your FSD. I've found its best to think of that effect as drag. It's not, but most people are at least somewhat familiar with atmospheric flight (most of us grew up on habitable worlds), and are familiar with how airplanes work. Close in to a stellar body, the drag is heavy. Far away from a stellar body, the drag is light. Your ship's booster engines (not the maneuvering thrusters) are responsible for overcoming this drag. This drag, not your retro thrusters, is also responsible for STOPPING your ship. Finally, the shape of the FSD field can help maneuver your ship, far more than the maneuvering thrusters can. Which is why there is no lateral thrusting in supercruise, but you can turn your ship without losing much momentum.

In a single body system, there isn't a problem. Drag doesn't vary fast enough to cause "overshoots" as you approach a lone star. However, in multiple body systems, it does. Your ship still has the equivalent of momentum as it approaches a planet or moon, and your destination's mass shadow isn't sufficient to stop your ship quickly. There are a variety of ways to deal with that momentum, the least efficient of which is throttling down far short of your destination, so that you don't "overshoot." Check out some of the Buckyball Racing Club's threads for some videos on how the pros use mass shadows to quickly slow their ships.

 

[CMDR Mr. Boombastic]

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;6bOy3RNyWME]https://youtu.be/6bOy3RNyWME[/video]

Actually if you check your throttle speed you are slowing down approaching a station.

Copy & paste from an older post although original regarding gravity wells:

It's called "Frame Shift Drive" for a reason, and based on the Alcubierre Drive ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive ) which apparently was inspired by Star Trek's warp drive.

The context is something like you're compressing space around your ship to move faster than light using your normal engine capability. However you can only compress space so much in the presence of a gravity well. The stronger the well the less you can compress thus the slower you move through space. Actual gravitational pull isn't being taken into account at all because the space compression is way more powerful than the affect of gravity and your ships computer automatically put you in a stable orbit around planets (i.e. your frame of reference) anyway. Thus the only factor that controls your speed is how much space is being compressed and what throttle you set your ship too.

Click (SOURCE) for the original discussion on 'Supercruise overspeed'

Speed in super-cruise isn't linear, it's quadratic/exponential in relation to space-time compression. You're using a frame-shift drive which is, as its name implies, shifting the space-time frame of reference around you. It is compressing space-time.

In deep space where no gravity wells (a form of natural space-time compression) exist, and your FSD has had enough time to spool up fully, you are moving at full compression. Now when you're accelerating to move forwards, you're accelerating inside that compression bubble, which is also moving along with you (this is why ships look like very very long meteors, they're actually really stretched out energy bubbles).

The speed at which you're moving in 'normal' space-time is increased by orders of magnitude in relation to the hugely increased frame of reference (larger distances are being compressed into much smaller distances). In absolute terms, you're covering a much much greater distance at much greater speeds than you seem to be relative to yourself. This is what allows you to move at super-luminal speeds without actually moving faster than light (an impossibility).

As you near and enter a gravity well, your ships FSD (creating and controlling your local compression bubble) has an inverse relationship with the surrounding space-time compression of gravity wells. This is an automatic, inbuilt mechanism of the FSD for practical (and of course safety) reasons. Simply, the deeper you are into a gravity well, the closer your frame of reference will be to the 1:1 reference of the background space-time fabric. This will stop you from smashing through massive bodies at objectively super-luminal velocities and creating black holes, destroying the universe and such. Your destination lock also indicates to your ship computer that you need to be at a 1:1 compression when arriving at your destination, this applies the same behavior to your FSD as natural gravity wells, but in a much more controlled and drastic fashion (gravity wells will always slow you down, but unless you are specifically locked on to a given signal, under the right circumstances you are still able to achieve super-luminal speeds right through the deepest parts of a well, you will just be being slowed down drastically).

So, think of it like this. If you're in deep space, your FSD is fully spooled and you're traveling within your local bubble at full compression. You enter a gravity well and/or begin nearing your destination, as your drive reacts and your frame of reference shrinks, you will actually be speeding up relative to non compressed space as your absolute speed overtakes the rate at which your frame of reference is returning to 1:1. To counteract this, your ship begins decelerating at a rate proportional to the space-time rarefaction happening around you. you have some control over this, but it is largely automatic. You can for instance push the relationship into a relative velocity bias (faster than I should be) or a rarefaction bias (slower than I should be), or you can sit "in the blue" and allow the calculated deceleration to rarefaction ratio play out. This will always be the smoothest interpolation between frame states, but it is never the fastest.

To put it another way. If your rate of deceleration is faster than the rate of space-time rarefaction, you will be slowing down in absolute terms. If your rate of deceleration is the same as the rate of space-time rarefaction, you will be maintaining a constant velocity in absolute terms. If your rate of deceleration is slower than the rate of space-time rarefaction, you will be speeding up in absolute terms.

So "overshooting" is you having gone over the threshold of keeping your deceleration in relation to your absolute speed under the rate of decompression Vs distance to your destination. The confusion comes from the not directly observable relationship between your current frame size and your intended velocity at destination. This is why we seem to suddenly 'speed up' if we are, or are about to, over shoot. Objectively speaking, we are speeding up dramatically. More specifically: we are decelerating at a rate slower than our decompression.

There are two things at work, not just speed; but primarily a form of warping, with speed being applied within that (constantly shifting) frame of reference. Distance factors (current velocity/strength of spooled FSD) and size of massive body (strength/radius of gravity well) play a part in how this effects your ship. You can use this to your advantage when you get to know it well, 'riding' these elements to significantly cut down travel times, but until then, keep your throttle in the 'blue' and let the computer do the rest.

Hope this cleared things up.

E: D uses a modified Alcubierre drive. The science behind Warp drives:

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;H7tU0H6rD-g]https://youtu.be/H7tU0H6rD-g[/video]

From the Wikipedia link:

The Alcubierre drive or Alcubierre warp drive (or Alcubierre metric, referring to metric tensor) is a speculative idea based on a solution of Einstein's field equations in general relativity as proposed by theoretical physicist Miguel Alcubierre, by which a spacecraft could achieve apparent faster-than-light travel if a configurable energy-density field lower than that of vacuum (that is, negative mass) could be created.

Rather than exceeding the speed of light within a local reference frame, a spacecraft would traverse distances by contracting space in front of it and expanding space behind it, resulting in effective faster-than-light travel. Objects cannot accelerate to the speed of light within normal spacetime; instead, the Alcubierre drive shifts space around an object so that the object would arrive at its destination faster than light would in normal space.

 

[OCD]

Is there any at least demi-realistic background to overshooting, e.g. in physics or rocket science? Or was it invented only to annoy people like so many other "features" of this game?

Cheers, Eric

Ive also noticed something after 9 weeks of playing .... i must get some sleep
anyway .... it occured to me that when im not paying attention and HONK in too fast to my destination and get the TOO FAST warning that my
deceleration rate seems worse, much worse, non linear to norm.

I tried a few fast passes and compared them with normal decel rate down from 10c, 5c and 2c. Then repeated a little too fast and it does seem that the moment you get the too fast warning its like your brakes are a bit cold. Dont know if anyone else has noticed the same or can correct me.

The key to a good OCD approach is attention. To use the IAM (Inst of advanced windbags) system ... Information, Position, Speed, Gear, Accelerate

Information : get lined up early, are you approaching from above or below, dont get BOGGED (mass locked) by larger bodies or scorching suns
Position : Get planetery bases on your nose in the middle and you want a 30-45 degree approach angle
Speed : Space stations, throttles 1/2 way between blue ... surface landings, you will need to peel speed past 1/2 way and down to 1/3 as you reach 2 and 1 Mm
Gear : Remember to stick it down before landing
Accelerate : Pick up your speed to just over optimal if youve slowed down too much

 

[Arindor]

I've never seen my ship accelerating when I set throttle to 0. It doesn't even accelerate when I set it to 75% after decelerate assist kicks in.

I must admit, it is strange. My bad, I don't reduce the speed to 0. I approach with the throttle set in the blue zone (I don't use the binds for 75%), then, sometimes, I can hear the engines pick up speed, which acts as my cue to reduce the throttle further (the reading increases, but the velocity indicator falls), but my ship decides to accelerate towards the USS as if it's trying to slingshot around a planet/moon. Not too fussed mind, just weird.

 

[CMDR Mr. Boombastic]

...I can hear the engines pick up speed..

Just fyi...

It's just the audio that revs up, you'll still be slowing down the whole time. The audio is based on your current speed within the range of allowed speed. Once you get close to a planet that allowed speed gets very low but your current speed can't slow down quick enough to remain in the range, thus the audio revs higher than normal.

 

[Starman 1966]

WOW - what a behemoth of a discussion may arise after such a simple question... I'm sorry that I could have not come back earlier - real life, you know?

First of all I would like to mention that I'm not that ignorant as some responders may think. Indeed I'm not approaching the station at full throttle and then complaining about missing it by ten lightyears. Likewise I'm not rushing my car into the garage...

The core of my question was adressed in some of the responses: Although I always keep my throttle in the middle or even the (s)lower third of the blue zone and hold a distance of around 7 to 9 seconds to the station and regularly use my thrusters with the "R"-key, very often a hefty acceleration is initiated by itself without any chance to foresee or to avoid. I have no idea what's behind this peculiar behaviour.

 

[CMDR Mr. Boombastic]

Thrusters should have no effect in supercruise as you are travelling in a warp bubble.

Although the mass of different thrusters may have some negligible effect on the manoeuvrability due to the change in total mass of the ship.

 

[Garbarrage]

1) play Kerbal space program
2) try to randevous 2 wessels in orbit
3) try to dock

Also
4) no sarcasm in 1-3

I've been trying that recently... All I can say is [stuff that will get me banned from the forum].