Pay2Win made it to Elite

[Northpin]

So I have read many of posts about what was "promised" about the ARX store and cosmetics and wanted to post my opinion on that specifically but also cover in a way the whole conversation.

I am sure there are other forumites here that are business owners of all incomes and ilks and I'm guessing they have had similar experiences and maybe not.
When I started my business way back when, I remember promising/swearing to myself that there were certain types of jobs I would not take or do and certain types of companies that I would not do business with. At the time I was set in a certain mindset and if my past me saw me typing this I would probably smack myself upside the head for it. So with that said..

Now I'm not in the software business, really no where near TBO, but in any type of business the realizations of money flow are all the same basically. No matter if the company has a $100 million revenue or $50k, when it gets tough you have to make changes or take certain actions to weather the time that the income is just not there for whatever reason..ie covid, natural disasters and yes even mismanagement which happens and not necessarily on purpose. Sometimes the decisions you make seem right at the time, but later find that it was detrimental and you learn from it.

Fast forward 23 years later and I look back at all the promises I broke to myself over the years to keep my business running. Nothing nefarious or illegal mind you but just basically certain principles that I held.
I realized over time that people rely on you, families of employees, sub-contractors and other businesses rely on the income and services you provide them. Customers rely on you to provide your product to them at a reasonable cost but the bottom line is this.. making a profit. I am not in business to break even or lose money. Businesses have to adapt and make changes on the fly to survive this effed up world economy. Because I broke promises to myself over time and bid on and took jobs I swore I wouldn't ever do in really tough financial times, I was able to keep rolling and create a very comfortable existence for my family and those that rely on my business to thrive.

I do not fault Frontier for "breaking promises" or even changing up how the revenue stream flows for their business. Predatory business practices is a very loose term in the corporate/business world. Obvious here in this thread that there are consumers that look at these changes and practices a completely different way and to me that is healthy to have the conversation.
In the end, I am still in a successful business after 23 years because I broke my mold and adapted and changed how I went about running the day to day to the ever changing landscape of my industry. It is funny to me to read posts on here from time to time where the OP or poster is making suggestions on how Fdev run their business and what they are doing right or wrong. I do get proper lols at times and I thank you for the entertainment.

Same applies here in my humble opinion.

too much common sense is not acceptable, luckily this is not reddit so your post cannot be downvoted

 

[Jinx Chrome]

I have read a part of the thread (but not the entire one, therefore apologies if I repeat something which has been said before) :

My opinion is: There is no pay to win in Elite Dangerous with the new ships. What could you win? Raxxla? A PvP fight? Two? Three?
Those pre-engineered ships will not give a significant advantage and there will be a lot of players who engineered their ships above the prepaid level and a lot of players whose flight skills are superior. Therefore, there's no P2W at all.

Therefore, leave it to the players who want to spend ARX on them and support FDEV that way!

 

[St0rmFury]

So I have read many of posts about what was "promised" about the ARX store and cosmetics and wanted to post my opinion on that specifically but also cover in a way the whole conversation.

I am sure there are other forumites here that are business owners of all incomes and ilks and I'm guessing they have had similar experiences and maybe not.
When I started my business way back when, I remember promising/swearing to myself that there were certain types of jobs I would not take or do and certain types of companies that I would not do business with. At the time I was set in a certain mindset and if my past me saw me typing this I would probably smack myself upside the head for it. So with that said..

Now I'm not in the software business, really no where near TBO, but in any type of business the realizations of money flow are all the same basically. No matter if the company has a $100 million revenue or $50k, when it gets tough you have to make changes or take certain actions to weather the time that the income is just not there for whatever reason..ie covid, natural disasters and yes even mismanagement which happens and not necessarily on purpose. Sometimes the decisions you make seem right at the time, but later find that it was detrimental and you learn from it.

Fast forward 23 years later and I look back at all the promises I broke to myself over the years to keep my business running. Nothing nefarious or illegal mind you but just basically certain principles that I held.
I realized over time that people rely on you, families of employees, sub-contractors and other businesses rely on the income and services you provide them. Customers rely on you to provide your product to them at a reasonable cost but the bottom line is this.. making a profit. I am not in business to break even or lose money. Businesses have to adapt and make changes on the fly to survive this effed up world economy. Because I broke promises to myself over time and bid on and took jobs I swore I wouldn't ever do in really tough financial times, I was able to keep rolling and create a very comfortable existence for my family and those that rely on my business to thrive.

I do not fault Frontier for "breaking promises" or even changing up how the revenue stream flows for their business. Predatory business practices is a very loose term in the corporate/business world. Obvious here in this thread that there are consumers that look at these changes and practices a completely different way and to me that is healthy to have the conversation.
In the end, I am still in a successful business after 23 years because I broke my mold and adapted and changed how I went about running the day to day to the ever changing landscape of my industry. It is funny to me to read posts on here from time to time where the OP or poster is making suggestions on how Fdev run their business and what they are doing right or wrong. I do get proper lols at times and I thank you for the entertainment.

Same applies here in my humble opinion.

Bravo, cmdr.

 

[Alien]

I appears that, in the main, the objections are not about them spending their money, but concern that others may spend theirs, which is laughable, in truth.

That's not the argument being made and you know because you've replied to my posts on this.
What Frontier are doing is unfair to other plyers, it is eroding the integrity of the game, eroding the trust in Frontier and EVERY game dev company that does this either has a bad reputation or goes out of business.

We all (even you) just want what is best for Frontier and for Elite (and by extension Planet Zoo, Planet Coaster JWE, F1, WH40K etc because without Frontier those games fall too). Frontier do not have to do this, there are other options, and you know there are, you're not new to this community.

Frontier have shown repeatedly over the last 10 years they keep making the worst possible decision for their customers while trying to make the best possible decision for themselves and their shareholders, but still have not learned that if they keep the customers happy, the money will roll in like no tomorrow.

Look at No Man's Sky. Horrible launch, and yet HG turned their reputation around, and they did it without charging anything for any expansion or any of the content they added to the game. Now they are about to release another game and people literally saying "If it has a rough launch, we trust HG to turn it around". People will give HG the benefit of time to make it right because they have proved they can. Frontier just keep proving they eff it up over and over again. What puzzles me though, is how they can manage to not eff things up with PZ and PC, yet with Elite, it's almost as if they want it to die.

 

[Jinx Chrome]

That's not the argument being made and you know because you've replied to my posts on this.
What Frontier are doing is unfair to other plyers, it is eroding the integrity of the game, eroding the trust in Frontier and EVERY game dev company that does this either has a bad reputation or goes out of business.

[...]

What exactly that FDEV is doing is unfair to other players? Please don't say "a pre-engineered ship which completely kitted out to the max", because that this is not what you will be able to buy. And even then - I can buy that from in-game credits and mats. It still won't make me king of ED.

 

[Alien]

What exactly that FDEV is doing is unfair to other players? Please don't say "a pre-engineered ship which completely kitted out to the max", because that this is not what you will be able to buy. And even then - I can buy that from in-game credits and mats. It still won't make me king of ED.

I explained it here (that thread is now locked) ...

I like things to be fair. Things not being fair upsets me.

Let's say this is World Of Warcraft (stay with me here).
You have Player A and Player B.
Player A has developed their character up many levels and has some decent gear.
Player B got their gear from the store.
Player A and Player B engage in a PvP fight, and if Player A loses, it's going to cost them X amount of gold to get their gear back.
If Player B loses, they get their gear back for free because they got it from the store.

Now, instead of it being World Of Warcraft, it's Elite.
Please do tell me how that is fair.

 

[IstvaanDCIV]

Who are these players who've been playing long enough to personally outfit and engineer a PvP-competitive ship, but not long enough to have built up enough credits for a few rebuys?

Also, what difference does it make if I get blown up by a pre-built ship, or one personally outfitted and painstakingly engineered to their CMDR's exact specifications? I still have to pay for the rebuy in either case. In fact I would, if anything, have more chances of escaping CMDR Spendy, because taking such shortcuts will inevitably mean less flight experience.

 

[Jinx Chrome]

I explained it here (that thread is now locked) ...

First of all, ED isn't WoW.
Second:: Don't get in a gun fight with only a knife!

The above comparison doesn't work at all. ED gives you solo and group to avoid these situations, and if you're playing in a ship which isn't a combat ship you may lose your poorly armed trader or exploration ship, too. So, what again is the point?

 

[Alien]

First of all, ED isn't WoW.
Second:: Don't get in a gun fight with only a knife!

The above comparison doesn't work at all. ED gives you solo and group to avoid these situations, and if you're playing in a ship which isn't a combat ship you may lose your poorly armed trader or exploration ship, too. So, what again is the point?

"ED isn't WoW"
So the analogy was lost on you then. You may as well add me to your ignore list because you won't like me giving my honest opinion on this game and on Frontier. The last thing I want is to upset you.

 

[Jinx Chrome]

"ED isn't WoW"
So the analogy was lost on you then. You may as well add me to your ignore list because you won't like me giving my honest opinion on this game and on Frontier. The last thing I want is to upset you.

You don't upset me. I am just wondering to what lengths people go to complain about a scenario (player buys a mediocre ship with real money to ... do what? Mess with another newbie?) which is just a fringe case. That pre-build ships for people who want to try things out / change their career but it is neither game breaking nor prohibitively expensive and you can get these assets within a few weeks of in-game missions if you're really keen on having them.

FDEV made a decision. Perhaps not a perfect one but they need to survive. After all it is their game and they make the rules. If I don't like them, I play something else.

 

[Jinx Chrome]

Btw: I also used "pay to win" because I bought the pre-release 10 years ago and I have... a Cobra MK IV. I am the queen of the galaxy, I rule you all! Or do I?

 

[Biff Stryker]

if they keep the customers happy, the money will roll in like no tomorrow.

This is not true.

 

[Rat Catcher]

That's not the argument being made and you know because you've replied to my posts on this.

Yes, it is, no matter how the phrases are couched, it is a few foum members bewailing "Pay to Win!!!" and concerned that someone else just might buy Frontier's offering as it suits their need.

What Frontier are doing is unfair to other plyers, it is eroding the integrity of the game, eroding the trust in Frontier and EVERY game dev company that does this either has a bad reputation or goes out of business.

I still don't see what is unfair to other players, sorry - there are no real advantages to buying a pre-built ship (although a zero rebuy providing it hasn't been modified in any way appears to be causing one or two forum members some concern - while ignoring that every player has at least one zero rebuy ship) as anyone who has been playing for even a short time would realise they are not particularly optimal, but do provide a 'helping hand' to some.
I cannot honestly perceive where any erosion is happening, but maybe my attitude toward running a business is wrong?

We all (even you) just want what is best for Frontier and for Elite (and by extension Planet Zoo, Planet Coaster JWE, F1, WH40K etc because without Frontier those games fall too). Frontier do not have to do this, there are other options, and you know there are, you're not new to this community.

No, I really don't care over much about what is best for Frontier - they just produce a single title I have any interest in - but I would enjoy it if other people giving them money helps keep the game going a little longer.
The company itself has never appeared to have leveraged their product for the benefit of either product or company, that is entirely up to them. Now they are, finally, waking up to the fact they need a good revenue stream to survive, and if it alienates a few of their customers, it doesn't matter. If it alienated the majority, well, all that will happen is the DOOM of all of their titles will be hastened.

Frontier have shown repeatedly over the last 10 years they keep making the worst possible decision for their customers

I agree, they have made no effort to have their customers continue to provide a reasonable revenue stream.

while trying to make the best possible decision for themselves and their shareholders

I don't think so, but you may, naturally.

, but still have not learned that if they keep the customers happy, the money will roll in like no tomorrow.

No, it won't as, paraphrasing your own comment above, you, me and the rest of the forumites are aware how averse many are to spending their hard-earned.

Look at No Man's Sky. Horrible launch, and yet HG turned their reputation around, and they did it without charging anything for any expansion or any of the content they added to the game.

Yes, they did. Have you seen NMS in the steam store for less than £20?

Now they are about to release another game and people literally saying "If it has a rough launch, we trust HG to turn it around".

If you say so...

People will give HG the benefit of time to make it right because they have proved they can.

If you say so...

Frontier just keep proving they eff it up over and over again.

In your opinion?

What puzzles me though, is how they can manage to not eff things up with PZ and PC, yet with Elite, it's almost as if they want it to die.

Perhaps they do, it does have a particularly toxic community of over-entitled players, ex-players and never players on several social platforms, including their own forum - but, oddly, permit trash talking, rather than kick the disenfranchised like CIG does happily.

You and others may consider FD have crossed some line because they have done something you disagree with... me? I'm not bothered how they try to raise revenue, simply as I have a choice, and if the day comes I don't have a choice, I stop playing... Think about it as a mature adult, abandon emotional reaction and think rationally, maybe?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Look at No Man's Sky. Horrible launch,

...which due to aggressive and well-funded pre-marketing by their publisher still brought in considerably more money than Elite Dangerous' launch (and massively more than Odyssey's launch did) before people realised they'd been sold a lemon.

Hello Games could afford to fix NMS for free quite easily because their launch was only horrible in the review sense, not the financial one. If their launch had been comparable to, say, Elite Dangerous' (or worse, Odyssey's) on initial sales and income, we wouldn't be praising them as an example of a good turnaround from a rocky launch, we'd be saying "anyone remember NMS? now that was a proper disaster, at least Frontier managed to fix Odyssey somewhat"

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Btw: I also used "pay to win" because I bought the pre-release 10 years ago and I have... a Cobra MK IV. I am the queen of the galaxy, I rule you all! Or do I?

You do ! You fly the only small ship with five hardpoints. You fly the best small pad cargo ship, and lots of settlements only have small pads

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

This is not true.

Yes it is. I mostly closed my wallet to FDEV, because they're not respecting their customers. In the meantime, Pearl Abyss got 10 times the money from me over the past 10 years than FDEV, because they do. A steady cadence of content updates, weekly patches, apologies and compensation when they have even one hour unplanned downtime. Listening to player feedback, implementing it where applicable and explaining their reasoning for why they are doing things. Two major roadmap events per year, smaller dev diaries frequently. THAT is how live service works, and that is worth my money.

 

[Vedmo]

Pearl Abyss

I tried with that one. I really did, but it was sensory overload; like throwing an Amish fellow who’d never been off the farm into a packed Casino with sounds and lights and everything hitting him so fast he has to just focus on breathing for a moment. I don’t know how anyone without severe ADD can handle that game (no offense to those with ADD).

There is no pay to win in Elite Dangerous with the new ships. What could you win?

For longer than the existence of ED there have been no small number of people who when talking about gaming use the term pay to win to refer to using a real money purchase to bypass gameplay. Over the years people have certainly voiced other opinions of how egregious such a practice needs to be before anyone is actually winning anything, and to each their own on what that line is for them. One could argue loot boxes are not pay to win as they‘ve maxed out their mom’s credit card and not gotten anything to make them OP. I’m not interested in making distinctions so I just look for games that don’t wade into the waters at all.

edit to correct auto correct

 

[Jinx Chrome]

You do ! You fly the only small ship with five hardpoints. You fly the best small pad cargo ship, and lots of settlements only have small pads

Perhaps FDEV should put the MK IV into the store and make it really expensive. Would silence all those who want their collection completed. And add all the exclusive paint jobs / decals from the last 10 years.
I hope that you get my irony Again, I can't care less to have the Cobra Mk IV. I am happy that I discovered ED and that I could support them at that point in time.

 

[Biff Stryker]

Yes it is. I mostly closed my wallet to FDEV, because they're not respecting their customers. In the meantime, Pearl Abyss got 10 times the money from me over the past 10 years than FDEV, because they do. A steady cadence of content updates, weekly patches, apologies and compensation when they have even one hour unplanned downtime. Listening to player feedback, implementing it where applicable and explaining their reasoning for why they are doing things. Two major roadmap events per year, smaller dev diaries frequently. THAT is how live service works, and that is worth my money.

The statement that just keeping your customers happy, "the money will roll in like no tomorrow" is not true. A happy customer doesn't necessarily mean they will just throw their money at said business. I am a happy customer that bought a $300 tennis racquet 35 years ago and have not given that company any money since.
So we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

[Unknown Zombie]

Paul said the module is stuck to the ship, so no "i can store it and put it on my next ship" but that doesnt exclude the fact they can never have to unlock Palin if they keep buying store ships.

What?? That is bull crap!

So the idea is these ships get a newbie a foothold on an aspect of the game, but they can't even actually tinker with the build? These are absolutely terrible concepts.

Building a mediocre ship for a newbie and then highly disincentivizing them from experimenting with the loadout to learn anything from tinkering with the template is awful. These are complete non-starters. Who TF are they actually for????