Pay2Win made it to Elite

[aRJay]

So lifetime doesn't actually MEAN lifetime ... despite the fact that the LEP was sold as being part of ED's life + expansions and content. So ED doomed?

The arguments in the forums seem more about the content of the agreement than its duration.

Ed is no more doomed now than it ever was despite some posters fervent wishes in that regard.

 

[OutofSpace]

The so called "grind" which people often refer to (negatively) is what i love about this game. It was the same for Elite Frontier 2 which i found totally addicting as i do this game.
This game is beautiful and should be savored. It's a forever game, as long as the servers are kept running. If people want to pay to skip the "grind" then i'm perfectly fine with that, especially if it helps to keep the servers running.
Each to their own. I'll play the game my way and others can play it their way. Everyone's a winner.

 

[Jack Winter]

Did FDev design unlocks with this intent? Probably not all things considered, but the fact that they have brought up changes to engineering evidences that do see some room to improve there. And the fact that they think they can sell ships built to purpose suggests that they see that as having value for skipping a non-trivial task (otherwise who is this for?). So what I'm asking here is, are we not already dipping our toes in the water?

IMO, Frontier designed the unlocks as an sort of in game guide to the various things you can do in game. Once you've unlocked the engineers you have a much better idea of the in game activities, than you would have if only watching the toob..

 

[Darkfyre99]

IMO, Frontier designed the unlocks as an sort of in game guide to the various things you can do in game. Once you've unlocked the engineers you have a much better idea of the in game activities, than you would have if only watching the toob..

And to add to this, the "starting" Engineers are more than sufficient to upgrade modules to at least* G3, which are more than sufficient against most NPCs. And they take minimal effort to acquire compared to G5 upgrades, which are only about 10% more effective than their G3 versions.
_____
* With the notable exception of armor upgrades.

 

[metatheurgist]

The so called "grind" which people often refer to (negatively) is what i love about this game. It was the same for Elite Frontier 2 which i found totally addicting as i do this game.
This game is beautiful and should be savored. It's a forever game, as long as the servers are kept running. If people want to pay to skip the "grind" then i'm perfectly fine with that, especially if it helps to keep the servers running.
Each to their own. I'll play the game my way and others can play it their way. Everyone's a winner.

I read stuff like "I can't wait to g5 everything so I can start to enjoy the game". That's like saying 'I can't wait to get to level 99 so I can start to enjoy the game" in a RPG. The game is getting to level 99. Would be so weird so sell the ability to skip levels in an RPG but I'm guessing that's out there too.

I'll grant that a lot of what Frontier calls gameplay stretches the definition but the answer is better gameplay, not monetizing its inadequacies.

 

[House0fDerp]

IMO, Frontier designed the unlocks as an sort of in game guide to the various things you can do in game. Once you've unlocked the engineers you have a much better idea of the in game activities, than you would have if only watching the toob..

This is certainly true in most cases but honestly I feel that these could still be better directed somehow. Instead all I wound up learning was that the things I like I'd already done and had nothing to do for the engineer and the things I didn't I learned to resent more. In both parts it just felt like it missed the mark.

 

[Jack Winter]

And to add to this, the "starting" Engineers are more than sufficient to upgrade modules to at least* G3, which are more than sufficient against most NPCs. And they take minimal effort to acquire compared to G5 upgrades, which are only about 10% more effective than their G3 versions.
_____
* With the notable exception of armor upgrades.

Exactly this, IMO it's a non issue. I'd wager a guess that most of those lamenting the grind have hundreds of ships fully G5 engineered and in the name of efficiency did it by relogging. For any normal player working towards having 5 or 6 ships specialized for various game loops and who are content with G3/G4 or even a roll or two into G5 it's really not an issue.

But again IMO, if you remove the mat grind, why am I playing the game? I need somewhat of a purpose, a plan what to achieve next!

And not to be mean, those that don't have the time for playing a career based sandbox game, are probably well advised to look for a more arcade like game.

 

[Jack Winter]

This is certainly true in most cases but honestly I feel that these could still be better directed somehow. Instead all I wound up learning was that the things I like I'd already done and had nothing to do for the engineer and the things I didn't I learned to resent more. In both parts it just felt like it missed the mark.

It's hard to please everyone. But yes, you're most likely correct, but still I'd contend that the unlocks are an attempt to show players stuff that they wouldn't otherwise discover.

 

[heathenlamb]

And not to be mean, those that don't have the time for playing a career based sandbox game, are probably well advised to look for a more arcade like game.

Wrong.

 

[House0fDerp]

It's hard to please everyone. But yes, you're most likely correct, but still I'd contend that the unlocks are an attempt to show players stuff that they wouldn't otherwise discover.

I don't disagree on the intent, i just think they did a really bad job in that capacity.

 

[Jack Winter]

IMO, it would be opportune to sell a scripted and voice acted mission pack that helps players to understand and get through basic engineering..

 

[jojon]

I would love it if there were diegetic ways to find out every bit of information one could need to play the game... :7

 

[metatheurgist]

Yep, it's what I mean when I say there are still things that could be done to improve the game experience that don't equate to new expansions. We don't necessarily need the voiced tutorials which are excellent and the sort of standard that I think is great but there's so much more they can do with NPC interactivity. They're just mostly pointless atm.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

And not to be mean, those that don't have the time for playing a career based sandbox game, are probably well advised to look for a more arcade like game.

The problem with that is that the vast majority of players won't play Elite Dangerous for several hundred hours or more [1], and if they're all advised not to bother to start with that's most of its income gone.

There needs to be the capacity for someone to play the game for 50 or 200 hours - and sure, they probably won't get a fleet carrier, or a fully G5 ship, or see many of the galaxy's sights outside the bubble, or enter a CG, or have a noticeable impact on a Powerplay 2 outcome ... but they should still be able to have plenty of fun without that and then - mostly! - move on thinking that they got their money's worth, or there will never be any new 1000+ hour players.

I would love it if there were diegetic ways to find out every bit of information one could need to play the game... :7

All of them must have been discovered in-game by someone the first time.

There's a few things where it depended on a Galnet article which has long-since expired, of course, but nothing I think particularly critical to gameplay as opposed to finding specific POIs.

Though it does of course depend on what sort of ways of discovering information you're looking for and whether you want them to be available before you attempt the task or as a result of attempting it. ED very much inherits from its 80s/90s predecessors [1] that most of the information on bigger-picture stuff as opposed to the base mechanics of flying the ship is something you discover by experiment ... but combines this with consequences much more annoying than the old "you died, reload a save from five minutes ago" for making certain sorts of mistake, which is a problem.



[1] To tie these two replies together ... ED was very much designed by and for people who had played the earlier games for thousands of hours. If you've done that and are therefore familiar with all the genre conventions ED is actually pretty straightforward and rather easier to get started with than its predecessors. But if you're not - and it's almost 30 years since FFE was released, no new players are going to be! - you've got a game which is massively more complicated than its predecessors in terms of mechanics, combined with the trademark "no hints on what to do next".

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I read stuff like "I can't wait to g5 everything so I can start to enjoy the game". That's like saying 'I can't wait to get to level 99 so I can start to enjoy the game" in a RPG. The game is getting to level 99. Would be so weird so sell the ability to skip levels in an RPG but I'm guessing that's out there too.

I'll grant that a lot of what Frontier calls gameplay stretches the definition but the answer is better gameplay, not monetizing its inadequacies.

I bought the complete edition of monster hunter world and tried that a short while back....... i could not understand why my mate got destroyed and i barely took a lick of damage and seemed to be doing way more damage in my attacks. it turns out the special edition of the game i had comes with end game armour that is equipped as standard to my level 1 character. it completely ruins the game and next time i play i will be getting rid of it.

however that said that is an extreme. The danger of selling items for real money that takes a while to earn in game is that it encourages developers to make it even longer to unlock stuff in game. I dont have a problem with earning my stuff through gameplay, but i must admit i do think the way "stuff" in elite spawns as well as the items we have to collect are incredibly lazily done. IF FD feel their material hunting is putting players off then the answer is imo to make that stuff more rewarding or have ways to mitigate it in game.

I know FD have said they are looking at re balancing engineering.............. but 7 or 8 years ago they were also looking at re-balancing shields, which never happened, they have talked about looking at powerplay for the longest of times (Sandro S talked about it) but it is only just happening (hopefully) this year, they announced new SRVs coming in early horizons and that didnt come until the back end of Beyond........

so forgive me it i am at a point now where i will hope for the best but only believe it when i have seen it.

 

[[VR] DDM_Reaper20]

No it's not. Self restraint doesn't affect the negative consequences imposed on you by the pursuit of ever more capital. It just slowly dwindles the goods and services you can partake in as more and more encroaches on whatever limitations you may have set.

This is because when voting with your wallet it's only the spenders votes that count. If you can convince enough people something has a subjective value then it's lack of worth to you won't keep anyone from raising the price and/or piecemealing the purchase.

Well, if you wish to look at it from that (a bit nihilistic) point of view, then there IS no fix, no solution, nuffin'. However, first, you HAVE to convince people that something HAS value, and every person has the right to determine that for themselves. The view that people are sheep who can be easily swayed is seductive, but anybody saying that usually finds, upon gazing into a mirror, that his (or her) countenance is remarkably similar to that of a certain grazing animal raised for milk and wool, as well. We can ALL be manipulated to a certain extent -- it's human nature. The extent is the important thing, and this is a GAME, it's not a life-or-death situation.

OF COURSE it's the spenders' votes that count. It's the same in any election -- those who abstain are ignored best, their lack of commitment taken as silent approval of government politics at worst, and you cannot fix that -- not, at least, without introducing a whole new set of problems -- and, from a historian's view point, I can virtually guarantee you that the "cure" will be much more dangerous (downright lethal, even) than the "affliction" could ever be. That goes for markets, as well, although to a SOMEWHAT lesser degree (as long as we stick to luxury items, that is, which computer games, by definition, are. As soon as we move away from luxury items, the brown stuff hits the fan.)

In a nutshell, we gamers do not agree on what is the right thing for FDEV to do, but we all have the right to decide for ourselves whether or not we wish to put up with that, and the ultima ratio is to stop paying & playin', should that be necessary. I am not willing to put up with anybody telling me how to play this game, at least not as long as I do not violate the terms and conditions as set down by FDEV...

 

[Shurimal]

I read stuff like "I can't wait to g5 everything so I can start to enjoy the game". That's like saying 'I can't wait to get to level 99 so I can start to enjoy the game" in a RPG. The game is getting to level 99. Would be so weird so sell the ability to skip levels in an RPG but I'm guessing that's out there too.

The only game I've played as much as E: D is Skyrim, and there is a lot of grindy power leveling there to skip the first 30 or so levels. Things like spamming iron daggers or gold rings to powerlevel smithing, grinding fortify carry weight enchantments, alchemy grind (wheat, bear claws and hanging moss—I'll remember that recipe forever), water breathing and telekinesis exploits, the general strategy to avoid doing quests that offer leveled item rewards before reaching level 40 to get the best version of the item, equipment for zero magica cost spellcasting, late game dual enchantment exploit for weapons etc.

Whenever it's possible to grind in order to skip levels or use exploits to get the best and fastest outcome, players will do so. E: D is no exception.

 

[Rat Catcher]

alchemy grind (wheat, bear claws and hanging moss—I'll remember that recipe forever

I've not touched alchemy in Skyrim, now I have to try...
That & FO4 are games I have 100's of hours in, and managed to miss lots of the things that streamers consider I should be doing to be 'best' at the games!

 

[CMDR Daiyus]

I've not touched alchemy in Skyrim, now I have to try...
That & FO4 are games I have 100's of hours in, and managed to miss lots of the things that streamers consider I should be doing to be 'best' at the games!

The thing with those games for me is that they're "role playing games", emphasis on "role". I don't play them to "win", I play them to enjoy the experience of being someone in that world. The meta grinds just make the whole experience worse in every way. To be honest, I take that approach into most games, and have more fun with suboptimal setups than any meta build normally offers.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The so called "grind" which people often refer to (negatively) is what i love about this game. It was the same for Elite Frontier 2 which i found totally addicting as i do this game.
This game is beautiful and should be savored. It's a forever game, as long as the servers are kept running. If people want to pay to skip the "grind" then i'm perfectly fine with that, especially if it helps to keep the servers running.
Each to their own. I'll play the game my way and others can play it their way. Everyone's a winner.

Frontier 2 was way less grindy. Like 95% less. The engineer crap was out of this world when it released.