Pay2Win made it to Elite

[Shadowsnog]

This will certainly give me an advantage over my playmates

id like to think that piloting skills are the primary factor in determining who has an 'advantage'.
then theres a lot of ifs and whens and circumstances...

regarding where the potential py2 balancing really has a meaning:
from people much better at pvp than me ive heard that fdl can keep its edge on py2. not a powercreep. not unfair. fine with me...

 

[SteveWW57]

Regarding the idea that buying a pre built ship will let you win is a bit of a stretch imo. With it, some advantage may be gained against some other players, probably the minority, but against the more probable majority, the pre engineered ship is more than likely to at a disadvantage.

Add in that you have to instance with someone in a less capable ship, bring them to combat which results in their destruction to gain any benefit.

If you were able to buy a well modded G5 Dominator suit plus three also well modded G5 weapons, then that imo could be considered paying to win. The pre engineered ship imo on offer falls short in the P2W stakes.

Steve

 

[galahad2069]

if you pay for an engineered ship and i play for the same engineered ship, its not pay to win.

Yes it is.

Paying for said ship still gives you the advantage of not having to collect the necessary credits and materials ingame.

P2W has a broad definition that covers any kind of ingame advantage you can get by paying. It does not matter if the advantage is only temporary (like in the above example) or permanent (if the ship you buy cannot be obtained by any other means than paying real money).

Both cases are P2W by definition, they are only different in severity.

 

[Shadowsnog]

Yes it is.

Paying for said ship still gives you the advantage of not having to collect the necessary credits and materials ingame.

P2W has a broad definition that covers any kind of ingame advantage you can get by paying. It does not matter if the advantage is only temporary (like in the above example) or permanent (if the ship you buy cannot be obtained by any other means than paying real money).

Both cases are P2W by definition, they are only different in severity.

pay to win is one of the ways how to monetise a game. not all of them.
theres no need to unlock py2, or any of the paid content, to progress the game.
you dont have any advantage over me by having this or that ship that you bought by money.
you not having to do this or that is a convenience, not advantage.
if you were to have the py2 even today on live server, nothing would change. you couldnt achieve anything i couldnt get by playing without the thing that you bought.

these are still mainly newbie ships. even the prebuilt py2 is somewhat bad at combat. where advantage...

 

[jojon]

So a few scattered thoughts, around-, and soaring-out, from the last page or two of debate...


Wrongs in the past are to be taken as a lesson to not do wrong again -- not to carry on treading deeper into the muck, "...now that we're already in the swamp anyway".

"But the other kids are also throwing sand" is never a valid defence.

I suppose anything can be justified by minute divisions from some unargueably bad point, given enough self-deceiving hair-splitting...

It's enough that the "me" who buys the advantage, gains it over the hypothetical "myself" who didn't buy it -- it is already a problem there; For "but then that includes everything" arguments against this: See above.

If something is worth paying to bypass, maybe it needs mending, so that it is better worth playing, instead.

"Playing dangerous games"... This whole monetisation scheme is a dangerous game from my point of view, and I hope for FDev's sake (...and by extension for ours, because I for one want more Elite), that the damage it does to their perception in the eyes of the buying public, past us stalwarts, does not prove their downfall.

...and the manners of their risktaking seems echoed in their hedging strategy... I am not personally invested in anything Warhammer, but from what I have seen written by those who are, ever since Realms of Ruin was announced, it looks like anything Age of Sigmar was always going to be a high stakes gamble, on being "the one" who finally begins to crack open the door to fanbase acceptence of the new setting - to the point maybe any AoS license should come with free and generous insurance from Games Workshop ;P.

Also in that writing, it seems the apparent pattern to the critique players give of every title FDev puts out holds true: They are competent games -- good-looking, polished, and with expertly, and responsibly defined (EDIT: ...and adhered to...) scope, but... somewhat... bare-bones... lacklustre -- always something about gameplay systems that feels half-baked, and not as much fun as it could be, given juust a few tweaks, and bits and bobs...

 

[Rat Catcher]

id like to think that piloting skills are the primary factor in determining who has an 'advantage'.
then theres a lot of ifs and whens and circumstances...

We sometimes play sillies in stock Sideys or Eagles, apart from being great fun (with a rebuy so low it matters little) it does help a little with fixed weapon practise too.
Also develops our skill along the way.
So totally agree with the "ifs & whens" part.

 

[galahad2069]

pay to win is one of the ways how to monetise a game. not all of them.

Yes, it's only one possible way to monetise a game. This particular way fdev apparently chose to do.

theres no need to unlock py2, or any of the paid content, to progress the game.
you dont have any advantage over me by having this or that ship that you bought by money.

It's not specifically you over whom someone needs to have any advantage, that's not what makes a monetising technique P2W.
If buying versus not buying it gives you any advantage, which it quite clearly does (by not having to collect credits and materials), that already makes it P2W, by definition.

you not having to do this or that is a convenience, not advantage.

That's nonsense. Being able to do something more conveniently is quite clearly advantageous over only being able to do it less conveniently.

if you were to have the py2 even today on live server, nothing would change. you couldnt achieve anything i couldnt get by playing without the thing that you bought.

For all we know about its stats, the Python2 is not going to be overpowered, but still it most probably will be a powerful combat ship, especially in 1v1s.

these are still mainly newbie ships. even the prebuilt py2 is somewhat bad at combat. where advantage...

Where is the advantage?
Noob #1 cannot afford it, he remains in his Sidewinder. Noob #2 opens his wallet and buys a Python2.
Noob #2 has the advantage. Can you see it now, or do I need to draw a picture as well?

 

[aRJay]

Imagining what Frontier Developments will do is a dangerous game to play right now.

Yes far better to wait until after the update and see how much better or worse than you could have possibly imagined things actually are.

And where will it end?

Pay to finish missions?

Given my well known dislike of missions that would be tempting, even better pay not to have to do them at all.

Pay to skip travel through galaxy?

Like a ride on somebody else’s carrier or the dull version with a loading screen saying as it’s Thargsday you are now in Belgium.

Pay to see the end credits?

What is this end you speak of, next you will be claiming the game can be won.

Pay to get accepted to a faction?
Pay to have another good player play for you?

I bet that is already available you just arrange it outside the game.

Why even play the game? Just pay pay pay... You may not see it, but P2W kills the game and you are just shooting yourself in the foot.
I rather they had a monthly fee to keep seeing this game grow. Like iRacing is doing. They been going strong since 2011 and just keeps growing. A dedicated group of players who love the game and keeps help making it better.

As others have said if the game was subscription based we wouldn’t be here.

 

[aRJay]

How is paying for an engineered ship not P2W?

Because they said that they would play for it.

If you both end up with the same engineered ship who has won?
You who payed cash money or them who just played the game?

 

[Fixitman]

The modern instant gratification gamer is rapidly overwhelming the industry. FDev finally realized they can either cater to them for a chance at survival, or ignore them and risk losing it all.

I'm glad they chose a minor catering job.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Because they said that they would play for it.

If you both end up with the same engineered ship who has won?
You who payed cash money or them who just played the game?

Yebbut, the P2W player might win on the day, or have flying skills so pitiful the sidey ran circles around it and slowly took it to pieces... (Why do folk assume everyone is equal on day 1?)

I know I have the "wrong" attitude to the current debate, but it all comes down to cogitation, really...

I get enough calls from O2 or Amazon or whatever, from people who don't even know my name, but really, really, want to take money from me and give nothing at all, not even a "So Long and Thanks for all the Fish!"... (they fail, of course, but that is neither here nor there)

At least, if I spend store currency I get a frippery to stroke my vanity, it isn't tangible, has no value outside of the relevant game, but I have chosen to have it.
This is, by definition, me winning, well people, I'm a winner because I decide if something is worth my money or time, and that is all that ever matters, I 'won' a game by spending a few quid... (and others 'lost' because they didn't...)

ETA: I remember spending 99p on a new flamethrower on the valve store (for TF2) because it looked hilarious and was marginally better than the one I had... So I guess I have supported P2W for around 20 years... (It didn't win for me, but did make me chuckle)

 

[Shadowsnog]

that already makes it P2W, by definition.

by what definition?

Noob #1 cannot afford it, he remains in his Sidewinder. Noob #2 opens his wallet and buys a Python2.
Noob #2 has the advantage. Can you see it now, or do I need to draw a picture as well?

what can noob in py2 do that noob in windy cant?

 

[galahad2069]

by what definition?

The definition of P2W. It has already been copied here in this thread before, multiple times IIRC.

what can noob in py2 do that noob in windy cant?

Jump farther, fly faster, hit harder, tank more damage, haul more cargo, etc etc. It's pretty obvious.

 

[galahad2069]

Here's the best educational material on the topic:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GXLVn73yRY

 

[DazeDreamer]

It is why I bought it on release...
Although it was "Pay for 9 FPS on a 2080 Super" in those days

Yay I'm not the only 2080 super test subject lol

 

[gorankar]

Yes, it's only one possible way to monetise a game. This particular way fdev apparently chose to do.


It's not specifically you over whom someone needs to have any advantage, that's not what makes a monetising technique P2W.
If buying versus not buying it gives you any advantage, which it quite clearly does (by not having to collect credits and materials), that already makes it P2W, by definition.


That's nonsense. Being able to do something more conveniently is quite clearly advantageous over only being able to do it less conveniently.


For all we know about its stats, the Python2 is not going to be overpowered, but still it most probably will be a powerful combat ship, especially in 1v1s.


Where is the advantage?
Noob #1 cannot afford it, he remains in his Sidewinder. Noob #2 opens his wallet and buys a Python2.
Noob #2 has the advantage. Can you see it now, or do I need to draw a picture as well?

I don't get why people are still trying to claim it isn't P2W, when it so clearly is. It's P2W, they should accept the obvious truth and decide if they are OK with this level of P2W or not. I have decided this level of P2W is fine with me.
I suppose they can decide that the Cambridge dictionary is wrong and their own personal definition is the real correct one, or try to pretend there is no advantage, but that would come off as a bit silly. Oh, they are doing that, aren't they.

pay-to-win

1. in computer games, involving or relating to the practice of paying to get…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[Rat Catcher]

I suppose they can decide that the Cambridge dictionary is wrong and their own personal definition is the real correct one, or try to pretend there is no advantage, but that would come off as a bit silly.

Of course there is a perceived advantage, else
A: ) FD wouldn't bother to ask Arx for any of the new ships
B: ) Nobody would bother spending their Arx on something that doesn't have some kind of advantage - simpler to just wait
C: ) MY buying whatever means I can show off my expensive purchase in Solo, for everyone to gawk at... (sorry, levity found its way in)

Oh, they are doing that, aren't they.

My take is that there is actually nothing to win in this game, so find the debate curious, but I won't argue with the OED...
I accept that I shall be paying to win, by definition, even though I won't actually be winning anything.

 

[galahad2069]

I don't get why people are still trying to claim it isn't P2W, when it so clearly is. It's P2W, they should accept the obvious truth and decide if they are OK with this level of P2W or not. I have decided this level of P2W is fine with me.

Yeah, same. I'm not particularly happy with fdev's decision of adding more P2W elements to the game than the minimal amount that has been present since day one, but I can tolerate it to a certain extent. For example, I'm not really concerned about the pay-to-skip-the-grind form of P2W, not even if the pre-built ships you can buy were fully G5 engineered meta ships, because in this game flying a certain meta ship is not like some shiny armour or badass sword in the above video, it's nothing to boast about. What matters is how you can fly that ship.

Pay-for-early-access is already a very gray area IMO, I'm totally not happy with that.

The absolutely unacceptable form would be the hardest kind of P2W (pay-to-get-unique-items) for me (ships or certain modules that you could only buy for real money). Luckily we haven't seen that yet. Let's pray they don't alter the deal any further.

I suppose they can decide that the Cambridge dictionary is wrong and their own personal definition is the real correct one, or try to pretend there is no advantage, but that would come off as a bit silly. Oh, they are doing that, aren't they.

Yeah lol, it's like pigeon chess sometimes.

 

[Rat Catcher]

in this game flying a certain meta ship is not like some shiny armour or badass sword in the video above, it's nothing to boast about.

Not in my hands, anyway.

What matters is how you can fly that ship.

Which is why I ended up putting all multis on my FDL - I don't have even 10% of the skill of the average PvP player, despite my old squad mates trying to teach me!

 

[Abil Midena]

Having to pay real money for access to the Python MK II, or having to wait 3 months to use it is a huge snub from the devs to the players.

Rather than improve the game, fix bugs, or introduce something new to attract more players and revenue, they do this. Sad and lazy.

This isn't going to help your bottom line FD. It's going to chase more people away from the game.

Who wants to bet that Elite Dangerous: Dangerous-er (or whatever the next Elite game is called) will use the same model as Star Citizen...bleed the whales for as much as possible, while delivering garbage. A fool and his money are soon parted, I guess.