Peregrina Aristocrats

[Niamh Kaminari]

I can understand the frustration, but unfortunately as far as I can see FDev has made their stance on "permit retreating" clear between this and Tiliala that if it happens a megaship will be added back in. Happened when (iirc) The Black Fleet did the same to the Tiliala issuing faction, and they did the same here.

Asking for it to be different is fine, but I just wouldn't count on it based on FDev's reluctance to give special treatment thigns to PMFs.

Another side point is that, you guys were out in a fairly sparse area and didn't have to deal with resistance all that much outside of Peregrina Aristocrats. But many many other player minor factions have to deal with either other player groups, special factions like Peregrina Aristrocrats, or both. For example the player minor faction that I lead has to deal with Eurybia Blue Mafia, which I can assure you gets a lot more traffic being an engineer unlock that any serious player has to go through, versus a permit that just hides some lore and nothing more. Additionally I'm in Denton Patreus space with a faction type not optimal for them and right next door to East India Company's space. I'd trade my situation for yours in a heartbeat.

You're probably getting a surge in traffic right now since there is basically three months backlog of people that weren't able to get the permit all trying to get it right now, but it should hopefully die down soon. My suggestion would be just have someone on your BGS team assigned to one night a week or such undermine Peregrina Aristocrats in HIP 18609 so that they never reach expansion

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Following the Lore leads to the Permit Systems, FD is in effect advertising the Lore by Permit Locking said systems and this would seem to be a core consideration for FD. By blocking access CEC appear to have been acting contrary to FDs will.
Once PA lost all presence outside Peregrina itself FD stepped rather quickly, that should probably tell us something regarding FDs intentions.

 

[Screemonster]

Stop making analogies with real life! We play a game that has its own laws and rules, none of which we have broken!

Okay.

It's like the guys that UA bombed the Dove Enigma, you know, the megaship created to commemorate a player's battle with cancer.

It was an in-game action that technically followed the rules of the game, but the fact that it wasn't technically against the rules doesn't stop it being a thoroughly antisocial action that annoyed everyone that heard about it.

 

[Darth Ender]

Okay.

It's like the guys that UA bombed the Dove Enigma, you know, the megaship created to commemorate a player's battle with cancer.

It was an in-game action that technically followed the rules of the game, but the fact that it wasn't technically against the rules doesn't stop it being a thoroughly antisocial action that annoyed everyone that heard about it.

was it done by one person or a bunch? cuz it's hard to call a group action anti-social. they're just being social with some people rather than all.

by that rule, any activity that limits the function of something available to other players is anti-social. But that's part of what a persistent mmo game like this is about. Being able to blockade a station or destroy a faction...collapse a power etc are all things one would expect to be able to do to oppose the expansion, utilization and prosperity of players either opposed by you or in some way disrupts your own pursuit of whatever goals you have in the game.

We dont get to have that kind of agency as players often in the game (or nearly at all), so when UA bombing actually allowed it, it was utilized.

not wanting players to have that kind of power .... the game might as well have just been single player. You've eliminated the agency of multiplayer ...so why continue with all the compromises an mmo requires one to make of a game? It would be much better to drop the pretense and go all in single player.

 

[-Stratos-]

Okay.

It's like the guys that UA bombed the Dove Enigma, you know, the megaship created to commemorate a player's battle with cancer.

It was an in-game action that technically followed the rules of the game, but the fact that it wasn't technically against the rules doesn't stop it being a thoroughly antisocial action that annoyed everyone that heard about it.

This means that our mission is the Dove Enigma theme, and you sabotaged it with your unwillingness to find a game way out of this situation - to gather a team and expand from the Peregrina. Instead, you occupied the forum complaining that something was not working out for you and forced the developers to take hasty and rash actions.By doing so, hurting us, or do you only care about your feelings?

 

[Rainbro]

This means that our mission is the Dove Enigma theme, and you sabotaged it with your unwillingness to find a game way out of this situation - to gather a team and expand from the Peregrina. Instead, you occupied the forum complaining that something was not working out for you and forced the developers to take hasty and rash actions.By doing so, hurting us, or do you only care about your feelings?

I doubt the players held a gun to Frontier's head and "forced" them to do anything. They took action to prevent a permit being unobtainable, just as they did in Tiliala. And it was your actions that caused that, no? If you were really fine with an expansion from Peregrina, why not leave them that one system and avoid all the trouble and this megaship?

The only difference I can see between this and Tiliala is that CEC didn't gain the ability to offer the permit. Is that what you were hoping for, to harness that?

 

[Niamh Kaminari]

was it done by one person or a bunch? cuz it's hard to call a group action anti-social. they're just being social with some people rather than all.

by that rule, any activity that limits the function of something available to other players is anti-social. But that's part of what a persistent mmo game like this is about. Being able to blockade a station or destroy a faction...collapse a power etc are all things one would expect to be able to do to oppose the expansion, utilization and prosperity of players either opposed by you or in some way disrupts your own pursuit of whatever goals you have in the game.

We dont get to have that kind of agency as players often in the game (or nearly at all), so when UA bombing actually allowed it, it was utilized.

not wanting players to have that kind of power .... the game might as well have just been single player. You've eliminated the agency of multiplayer ...so why continue with all the compromises an mmo requires one to make of a game? It would be much better to drop the pretense and go all in single player.

Groups can be anti-social outside themselves even if being social within. Take wasp hives for example, they are social between members of their hive, but will attack outsiders on sight.

That's the thing Scree is getting at. It was within the rules, until the power that be decided it wasn't. Unfortunately the powers that be have decided that retreating a permit-issuer from everywhere isn't in the rules, and now you just have to learn to deal with it. It sucks I know, but it's just how it is. You guys are far from the first to have to deal with annoying influence bumps from random players to permit factions or engineer factions, etcetera. It happens, and it's just part of the BGS gameplay.

There are plenty of other ways that players have agency. There are also plenty of things that Frontier has decided the players shouldn't have agency over. FDev have simply decided that this particular thing is one of the latter.

This means that our mission is the Dove Enigma theme, and you sabotaged it with your unwillingness to find a game way out of this situation - to gather a team and expand from the Peregrina. Instead, you occupied the forum complaining that something was not working out for you and forced the developers to take hasty and rash actions.By doing so, hurting us, or do you only care about your feelings?

That's the thing. There isn't a game way out of the situation when nobody can get into Peregrina to work them out of there. The developers designed that system in mind that it would remain accessible, just with steps. Peregrina becoming inaccessible was in their view a bug, and one that needed resolving. Their resolution might be at odds with your desires, but unfortunately the developers are the final word here.

I worked with you guys and your leader on suggesting a viable solution to Frontier on this matter, and I suggested in my ticket with them adding the megaship to a nearby unpopulated system. However Frontier decided otherwise. I can't speak to why they declined that or any of the other solutions you guys or anyone else suggested. But the point is that they did, and now you just have to live with it. As a large enough player group to be able to be present in 65 systems and control 45 of those, managing the influence of one faction in one system should be as easy as breathing.

Like heck, maybe instead of throwing personal attacks at members of the communty just ask for some people to help you with managing Peregrina Aristocrats influence in HIP 18609. But even then, you guys are a 65 system, 45 controlled faction. You're so large, this shouldn't even remotely be an issue for you, I'm sure you can find one of your members to handle this on occasion.

Me and like 3 others took a 7 billion pop system from a faction while dealing with random influence chaos from people boosting Eurybia Blue Mafia to unlock Liz Ryder. I'm sure a player group large enough to own what you own can manage to keep one faction in one 76k population system in check. Or to phrase another way, if you could manage to retreat them from HIP 18609, you can manage to keep them from expanding from it, because the former is much harder to do than the latter.

Additionally in the bug ticket your faction made here: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/43944 it is stated that you've repeatedly asked FDev over a period of 5 years for solutions but been turned down every time. Why do you think continuing to ask is going to change their mind at this point? At some point you just need to accept the answer.

I mean no offense, but it is really silly that a faction as large as yours has such issue with this.

 

[Darth Ender]

Groups can be anti-social outside themselves even if being social within. Take wasp hives for example, they are social between members of their hive, but will attack outsiders on sight.

You're arguing gradients and not absolutes. If you're social with other people, then you're social. if i invite acquaintances over for dinner, i'd be called social. But if i prohibit strangers from dinner, am I being anti-social ? or just normal? Do i have to allow everyone to not be considered anti-social? Or do you only care about your perspective as an outsider and not theirs when defining them?

That's the thing. There isn't a game way out of the situation when nobody can get into Peregrina to work them out of there. The developers designed that system in mind that it would remain accessible, just with steps. Peregrina becoming inaccessible was in their view a bug, and one that needed resolving. Their resolution might be at odds with your desires, but unfortunately the developers are the final word here.

Nobody had access? Getting access to the plague system was all the rage when it was introduced as such (since there aren't many plague systems). pets his permit
I'm sure there are lots and lots of players who have access. Most of which not part of this player group who was trying to limit it. I dont recall any in game rally to do anything about boosting the aristocrats faction ...none that anyone cared about anyway. You'd think fdev would make a CG out of it or something if players were that interested.

 

[Niamh Kaminari]

You're arguing gradients and not absolutes. If you're social with other people, then you're social. if i invite acquaintances over for dinner, i'd be called social. But if i prohibit strangers from dinner, am I being anti-social ? or just normal? Do i have to allow everyone to not be considered anti-social? Or do you only care about your perspective as an outsider and not theirs when defining them?



Nobody had access? Getting access to the plague system was all the rage when it was introduced as such (since there aren't many plague systems). pets his permit
I'm sure there are lots and lots of players who have access. Most of which not part of this player group who was trying to limit it. I dont recall any in game rally to do anything about boosting the aristocrats faction ...none that anyone cared about anyway. You'd think fdev would make a CG out of it or something if players were that interested.

Arguing absolutes would be ridiculous, nobody is ever completely social or completely anti-social. Even if you're social with others your group's actions and aggression to others in here over this is very anti-social.

Point is, that the developers of the game decided that permit being locked away wasn't part of their vision and this was their solution.

How did your group even grow to be in 65 systems and control 45 of those when apparently one faction in one very low population system is too much for you? Seriously you guys are by far large enough for this to be a non-issue.

 

[RBHM Spoons]

everyone getting salty much XDDD i love it

 

[Nadreck]

I don't see why the expansions were a problem anyhow. Why would it matter if Peregrina Aristocrats were present in CEC's systems, if they were only one faction among several present, and not in control? Why wage a war of extermination against them?

It's been awhile since my main account got the permit, but probably I would have gone to the nearest large-pad orbital station and taken missions from there to get allied (easier than working from an outpost or planetary base), then moved to within 15ly to pick up the permit. My understanding is that while this might have helped push the Aristocrats into an expansion from the system I was operating in, it wouldn't have boosted their influence anywhere else. I expect others were doing the same, in just one or two systems close to Peregrina, so in the vast majority of the other systems they'd just sit there unsupported, on a low percentage of influence, after expanding in.

Unless I'm missing something, Peregrina Aristocrats wouldn't have been a threat to CEC's control of the region (except in maybe a couple of systems).

But when CEC waged their war of extermination, it could only have one result: the eventual permanent removal of part of the game from ALL new players. Unless they were stopped, somehow.

And not all faction-supporting BGS players have PMF's, many adopt an existing faction and support that instead. So what if a group of new players actually wanted to support Peregrina Aristocrats, but couldn't get the permit? No PMF has the right to permanently cripple another faction that other players might want to adopt.

 

[Darth Ender]

Arguing absolutes would be ridiculous, nobody is ever completely social or completely anti-social. Even if you're social with others your group's actions and aggression to others in here over this is very anti-social.

it isn't anti social, they're being social. it's just anti some people, which is true of any game that pits people against other people.

I'm not part of this group. i don't even know what's this player group blocking out PA is even called. it doesn't matter to me enough to learn it. but if a player group wants to control a system and has the support to do so then they should be able to. there is nothing special or unique being lost by other players... and they can be opposed in game...

the fact that fdev capitulated is what it is. it's not the first pandering decision they've made that they shouldn't and probably won't be the last. but the game is less for losing the option for even this tenuous amount of power.

And not all faction-supporting BGS players have PMF's, many adopt an existing faction and support that instead. So what if a group of new players actually wanted to support Peregrina Aristocrats, but couldn't get the permit? No PMF has the right to permanently cripple another faction that other players might want to adopt.

nothing is permanent with the bgs. if this player group stopped inhibiting the PA faction, it would normalize and expand on its own over time and with player actions. (lots of players have this permit who don't belong to this group)


that kind of influence and power is exactly the point of the bgs being multi player. it's just not utilized effectively to that potential

if players don't have the ability to impact it in a way that matters, what's the point?

 

[AntonyVern]

Let me say that again, for everyone.


This thread has strayed far from the heart of the matter, so I will focus the attention of those present on specifics.

We are only suggesting an elegant solution to the problem, so that it does not bother anyone and, in the long run, so that similar problems can be solved without swearing and with respect for everyone.

Why everyone is trying to get us to just accept it, instead of a truly competent solution, is a mystery.

Our task is simple and does not bear any other meaning than the desire to solve the problem elegantly, without disturbing anyone around and give the opportunity to solve such problems without the need to foam at the mouth to prove something to nones in the forums.

We are not at war with anyone, we do not want to offend or disadvantage anyone. Our faction always proceeds from the principles of mutual (!) Respect for the interests and is looking for appropriate ways to solve problems. If, however, my comrades have allowed inappropriate treatment, please forgive us and remember - we are not native English speakers (our language has an affinity for figurative thinking and analogies, metaphors, and comparisons, so don't take cancer as an insult).

It is enough to correct the current version in the game to the one in which PAs will cease to affect the BGS system. That's it. Nothing more. We don't want any problems for permittees or other people now and we didn't want to before.

 

[Melanthes]

Why everyone is trying to get us to just accept it, instead of a truly competent solution, is a mystery.

Simply because it's not a competent solution but a special rule so that you can gobble up more space in peace. I might head out there and help the Aristocrats.

 

[AntonyVern]

Simply because it's not a competent solution but a special rule so that you can gobble up more space in peace. I might head out there and help the Aristocrats.

This is the first time we have encountered such stubbornness and unwillingness to act on the BOTH interests, not just the interests of one side.

This is a real destructive activity on your part. Or is it discrimination of Russian-speaking players?

 

[Nadreck]

This is the first time we have encountered such stubbornness and unwillingness to act on the BOTH interests, not just the interests of one side.

I understand that you'd be OK with various solutions, such as a BGS-locked megaship, or becoming a second permit-issuer for Peregrina.

But no such solution was in place when you exterminated Peregrina Aristocrats in all systems outside Peregrina, and denied all new players access to the permit. That was disrespectful to them.

 

[SwingKing]

I understand that you'd be OK with various solutions, such as a BGS-locked megaship, or becoming a second permit-issuer for Peregrina.

But no such solution was in place when you exterminated Peregrina Aristocrats in all systems outside Peregrina, and denied all new players access to the permit. That was disrespectful to them.

Just to clarify: FD told us that expansion into permit-locked system possible, and we need to keep trying
So there was plan A, and plan B..
Plan A didn't catch the "implementation of plan B" ¯\(ツ)/¯
Of course, at some point we began to guess that expansion was impossible, and frustration caused by tha fact was a driver of our decisions.
Now we are here..
I wish you don't judge us, cos in our actions there was no desire to break someone's game.

 

[naukogriz]

We'd be glad to have one of solutions you stated, but when we tried to give one of that to FDev later, no answer was recieved. Nothing. Silence.

So we had to move PA out of 18609, as they were too close to Kagutsuchi, and, as can be seen here, that definetly made the sutuation famous. Still both variants are good, or we can even let PA get all 18609 system if we know for sure they not expand from there.

As we said before, removing PA out of any system outside Peregrina itself has not encountered any sighnificat resistance compared to factions you mentioned (Eurubia Blue Mafia, AFAIR), that led us to conclusion that the importance of Peregrina to the community is overrated. Despite that, some pilots decided to call FDev and use them to return PA against common BGS rules. And that is not a conflict solution, just returning it to a status-quo, but making PA more dangerous.

Also having PA in 18609 and not-BGS-locked means one can still forbid them giving permits to Peregrina itself - for example, causing various BGS status when such missions are not spawning. So so-called permits griefers, as one guy here call them, can really do some trolling - hope the situation here don't go to that point.

We're still open for discussion, and I see here many pilots understand our position which is great. On the other hand, I see several of them trying to blame us in other threads, hoping we don't see that and don't do any conclusions. Well, we could not dissapoint them, and turn the converstation into the way they expect, though we are not going to do this so far just because we see most of people here are not wanting escalating the conflict either and don't fooled by various provocations.


P.S. again, we're not against players, or factions, just wanted to clarify our position to dear FDev, who somehow or by mistake ignored them for some time. If one can push their words and use Hand of God, why others should shut up and suffer?

 

[Felix DiCestria]

I dont recall any in game rally to do anything about boosting the aristocrats faction ...none that anyone cared about anyway. You'd think fdev would make a CG out of it or something if players were that interested.

What exactly do you think I started this thread for?

There was speculation that FD might do a CG, but then there may be a schedule they're working to.

 

[Rainbro]

Despite that, some pilots decided to call FDev and use them to return PA against common BGS rules.

There's precedent for this happening considering Tiliala. I am very much in favour of the BGS-locked megaship idea, but...what did you expect to happen when you blocked off access to the permit?