Performance impact of Ram & CPU upgrades

[Filmgeek47]

Hey all,

Just upgraded to a vive pro from OG vive. Fantastic improvement IMO. My system's struggling a bit to power it, even with a 1080ti, and I'm wondering if it's because I've switched to a different machine with slightly different specs than my old one.

Was running the same card on an i5 8600k. Switched to a 6600k on the other machine. Both running 8GB 2133Mhz ram.

Wondering what experience people have testing increased Ram, ram speed and the difference between an i5 VS i7 processor for the game in VR.

Could a 6600k or 8GB be bottlenecking me?

 

[Aio]

I think I have good performance all though async reprojection is needed. My spec is 1080, 8700k and 32 GB ram. I would also try out the steamvr beta with dynamic ss if you do not have it already.

 

[Filmgeek47]

Checked task manager today and I was showing 65% GPU usage and 99% cpu... Think I found my problem. Is what’s in the beta any different than the latest full release? Does dynamic ss change actively while playing or does it just set automatically on launch?

thanks for your help!

 

[GJ51]

When it comes to ram, more always = better

I wouldn't build a system with less than 32GB today. More inclined to go with 64GB nowadays.

There was a site linked recently that allows you to input your hardware to see if you have a bottleneck somewhere.

Currently it seems that high single thread speed is the most important CPU factor, but architecture and I/O are also relevant.

I've been stalling on a new build as it's still not clear when we will get on chip mitigation of Spectre/Meltdown issues. Most articles I read claim 2nd half of this year, maybe.

I'm not going to spend on a CPU that has known security problems and by waiting, it will likely position my next build to be around the same time as then next gen GPU release - from Nvidia, of course.

I'm content with ED on a 34" curved for now and don't intend to jump to VR until it achieves better resolutions and performance WITHOUT having to go through all manner of testing and tweaking. It still feels too much like an early adopters task and not yet a fully consumer ready product.

Also, we are now seeing new Ryzen CPU's available shortly and the Intel v AMD choice is probably not as clear cut as it has been for the last few decades. There's a lot going on in hardware right now - very dynamic - and it might take some time to really get a clear picture of where smart value lies.

HTH

But, ram - always more

 

[TorTorden_VR]

I have not seen a single gaming setup need more than 16GB RAM.
If you need 64GB of RAM you do so cause you have specialied needs or you really need to close some browser tabs.

You only need more RAM when you don't have enough, and for elite 8GB is actually almost enough but just barely you would have virtually no head room.
I wouldn't want to start a browser while playing elite in vr.
The VR software takes about 2GB of RAM, I have never seen ED use more than 6GB.
Inhale however seen games use more and more VRAM, VR on its own takes about 1GB VRAM, ED no more than 6GB.
I have often seen my system use up to of about 12gb of RAM but that is about it.


I have however noticed considerable improvements from upping speed on the RAM for vr.
I wouldn't recommend anything under 3200mhz, I saw very noticeable bump myself going from 1600mhz ddr3 to 2400mhz ddr3.

Now I'm 16gb of 3200mhz ddr4 and the i7 8700k.
And I can definitely see moving from an i5 8600 to an i7 6600 as a downgrade.
the six cores and extra cache on the 8600 makes it perform on par in pretty much any benchmark to the i7 7700k.

Saying. you need 64GB of RAM to play elite is akin to insisting on need an 18 wheeler to go grocery shopping.

 

[Aio]

I wouldn't want to start a browser while playing elite in vr.

Wow.. ED is unplayable without a browser imho
I have Firefox as an overlay which I can enable by pressing F1 (using autohotkey). Works great with mouse and all when using a 8700k/32gb ram but gave performance issues on my old 3770k/16gb.

 

[Aio]

Checked task manager today and I was showing 65% GPU usage and 99% cpu... Think I found my problem. Is what’s in the beta any different than the latest full release? Does dynamic ss change actively while playing or does it just set automatically on launch?

thanks for your help!

I m not sure how the dynamic ss work but I thought it adapts all the time during execution. I have stutters now and then but the visuals are great. It is a beta function so I guess it will improve as well. Give it a try.

 

[Pville_Piper]

I have not seen a single gaming setup need more than 16GB RAM.
If you need 64GB of RAM you do so cause you have specialied needs or you really need to close some browser tabs.

As TorTorden says, I've never seen my 16 gbs of ram fill out playing VR. You'd be very well served to go with the I7 8700k processor as it is about the best in both single and multi thread. Definitely get 16 gb of 3200 MHz ram.

You might want to wait a bit as the new Ryzen 2 is about to release. The press blackout is lifting on April 18th and from the guys over at Tech Report are hinting that it will be a serious competitor to the I7 8700k. I'm not an AMD fan boy but I would hold off until then if it was me.

 

[GJ51]

I have not seen a single gaming setup need more than 16GB RAM.
If you need 64GB of RAM you do so cause you have specialied needs or you really need to close some browser tabs.

You only need more RAM when you don't have enough, and for elite 8GB is actually almost enough but just barely you would have virtually no head room.
I wouldn't want to start a browser while playing elite in vr.
The VR software takes about 2GB of RAM, I have never seen ED use more than 6GB.
Inhale however seen games use more and more VRAM, VR on its own takes about 1GB VRAM, ED no more than 6GB.
I have often seen my system use up to of about 12gb of RAM but that is about it.


I have however noticed considerable improvements from upping speed on the RAM for vr.
I wouldn't recommend anything under 3200mhz, I saw very noticeable bump myself going from 1600mhz ddr3 to 2400mhz ddr3.

Now I'm 16gb of 3200mhz ddr4 and the i7 8700k.
And I can definitely see moving from an i5 8600 to an i7 6600 as a downgrade.
the six cores and extra cache on the 8600 makes it perform on par in pretty much any benchmark to the i7 7700k.

Saying. you need 64GB of RAM to play elite is akin to insisting on need an 18 wheeler to go grocery shopping.

Good analysis

I usually have many things other than ED open at the same time which is why I usually go for more than needed. I'm currently running 24GB.

But I would recommend 16GB as a min. for general use in a new build.

 

[GJ51]

As TorTorden says, I've never seen my 16 gbs of ram fill out playing VR. You'd be very well served to go with the I7 8700k processor as it is about the best in both single and multi thread. Definitely get 16 gb of 3200 MHz ram.

You might want to wait a bit as the new Ryzen 2 is about to release. The press blackout is lifting on April 18th and from the guys over at Tech Report are hinting that it will be a serious competitor to the I7 8700k. I'm not an AMD fan boy but I would hold off until then if it was me.

+1 - Yes, the Ryzen 2 is just around the corner

I've been waiting for the full details and comparisons/new features that are still under NDA

Hardware $$$ go easy, buy once spent you live with your choices for several years. Taking the time to understand the current dynamic environment will pay dividends later on.

 

[Filmgeek47]

I swapped in the 8600k from my other system and saw a very noticeable jump in performance. I’ll have to pick up some more ram sometime soon. Noticed windows is using a bit of ram compression, so presumably I’d see at least a small performance/reliability improvement in ED if I go to 16. Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[Globusdiablo]

...Could a 6600k or 8GB be bottlenecking me?

YES!

I've got a 6600k @4.2 and using HWiNFO64 I saw max load on all 4 cores with high custom VR settings on my Vive of late. The 8600k has 6 cores. 50% real life capacity boost. I wish my motherboard supported the 8000 series...

The 8600k is an excellent gaming CPU btw. I'll take cores before threads any day. Congrats.

Edit: and 16 gigs of at least 3000 mhz ram is considered minimum for a decent gaming rig these days.

 

[TorTorden_VR]

Wow.. ED is unplayable without a browser imho
I have Firefox as an overlay which I can enable by pressing F1 (using autohotkey). Works great with mouse and all when using a 8700k/32gb ram but gave performance issues on my old 3770k/16gb.

We'll I meant with 8GB of RAM.

Most browsers if you have a few sites open, be them just news sites and or for forbid something like imgur or YouTube will quickly eat up a few Gig.
And just the VR software, windows key systems and the game pretty much max out those 8GB.
So adding more, means we start either compressing the data in RAM or start using page files.
Not awesome for VR.

As I have stated 16GB is plenty for now.
I hope FD starts upping RAM consumption soon, I can always throw another 16GB in.
But we are still not where for gaming purposes need 32GB, let alone 64GB.

If you need 64GB of RAM you aren't doing mainstream office work and gaming, there are many good reasons for needing more, lots of high res video editing for instance.
I suspect scratching 4k uncompressed video would easily fill 64GB of RAM.

I contemplated getting 32GB when I built my current box, but I would rather have 16GB of 3200mhz RAM rather than 32GB of 2000mhz RAM, I was already blowing my budget but wouldn't compromise my build either.

As for dynamic SS or simply dynamic resolution as used in new engines, like the doom 2016 engine etc are indeed dynamic and scales on the fly, most of these games let you set a target resolution or SS and a second setting for how rigidly it will hold to this setting.

Xbx and ps games have been using this for a while, many ps4 games have been chastised for dropping below even 480p in resolution during busy sequences in order to maintain 30fps.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I have found that CPU and Ram does make a big difference in VR. I did have an i5 2500k overclocked with 16gb of ram at 1600mhz and my AMD Fury.

I could only run it in low-medium with the odd thing on high settings.

Now I have upgraded to an i5 8600k (not overclocked it yet) with 16gb ram at 3200mhz and my AMD Fury, I can now run it on the generic(none VR) Ultra setting with 0.75 SS and 1.5 HMD. It is jittery at first but after a few minute it settles down and is perfectly fine, looks great and very smooth. I am really happy with the performance of my old GPU.

 

[mazi]

A switch from a 6 core CPU to a 4 core CPU for VR is just plain stupid and then the GHz are even slightly lower. Never ever go down that road. 6 cores is the minimum, better 8 cores for future requirements, the main GPU thread should never ever face interruption, and then nVidia drivers put their load on cores in parallel as well. Future usage of DX12 and Vulkan will even make better use of more cores.

 

[Filmgeek47]

I've been reading a lot of conflicting info about ram speed and frame rates. The issue I've got right now is that I'm running 8GB (2x4) of ddr4 2400. I know windows is having to engage ram compression right now, so I'd assuming just moving to 16gb would give me a bit of a performance boost.

My question is whether it's really worth it to change ram speeds. In order to do that I'd have to sell my current ram and then buy 16 (2x8) to get to 3200, which is at least double the price over just getting another 8GB kit. Has anyone done an A/B comparison with a high end GPU in VR and verified that it's explicitly the ram bandwidth that's improving frame rates?

On the vive pro I've dialed in the settings to make the game look insanely pretty, but it's just a hair too juddery to fully enjoy it.

Again, my current spec is 8600k, 1080Ti and 8GB DDR4 2400mhz.

Thanks again for weighing in.

 

[Pville_Piper]

Here is the best answer that I could find. https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...g-ddr4-to-3200mhz-improve-overall-performance

https://www.techspot.com/article/1171-ddr4-4000-mhz-performance/page4.html

Techspot says it's worth going to higher ram from 2400 to 3000, but it looks like 3-4 FPs in their benchmark. So, you tell me if that is worth dropping that much money on 2300 ram.

Edit: From some of the reviews it seems that higher ram speeds benefit the user by raising the minimum frame rate. This could be a factor in VR that could reduce juddering and allow you the user the ability to run more demanding graphics settings.

Edit 2: I've looked at quite a few different benchmarks and honestly, I don't see any gains outside the margin of error except in very rare instances or by the odd user review that just seems way out of whack with mainstream reviewers. Personally, if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't pay the upgrade costs, I'd simply add more 2400 ram.

 

[TorTorden_VR]

I've been reading a lot of conflicting info about ram speed and frame rates. The issue I've got right now is that I'm running 8GB (2x4) of ddr4 2400. I know windows is having to engage ram compression right now, so I'd assuming just moving to 16gb would give me a bit of a performance boost.

My question is whether it's really worth it to change ram speeds. In order to do that I'd have to sell my current ram and then buy 16 (2x8) to get to 3200, which is at least double the price over just getting another 8GB kit. Has anyone done an A/B comparison with a high end GPU in VR and verified that it's explicitly the ram bandwidth that's improving frame rates?

On the vive pro I've dialed in the settings to make the game look insanely pretty, but it's just a hair too juddery to fully enjoy it.

Again, my current spec is 8600k, 1080Ti and 8GB DDR4 2400mhz.

Thanks again for weighing in.

I think 2400mhz should be fine.
I would just go for 16 @2400mhz I believe that's pretty much the mark of diminishing returns right now.
Couple of years maybe, but that's like 5 ish years from now and we might be on ddr5 or something by then.

I think the benefits between 2400 and higher is smaller than say 1600mhz and 2400mhz.
I just personally went with 3200mhz RAM since I wanted to exclude it as a factor, and since I was building a new rig, the price difference was less than a €100.

I agree those articles might be the best on the subject, but they do not consider VR.
And just because something is just fine in 2d gaming doesn't mean it is so for VR.

Vr is simply too different and with far higher demands on the entire system.
It is quite likely what only produces a marginal, inside the envolope for statistical error benefits, become far more pronounced in VR.
But I can't truly back this up yet.
If not for vr I would have been perfectly happy with my i5 4670k, 980ti, and 1600mhz ram.
Gosh that would have saved me a lot of money...

For 2d this was feeding my 3440×1440 ultra wide with ease.
For VR the i5 was utterly bottlenecking my 980TI.
And upping to an i7 4790k a 1080ti, and 2400mhz RAM only helped a little since that CPU and RAM was still bottlenecking the 1080ti, I also suspect the older z97 chipset it self was part of it.
Newer chipsets get a lot more stability.

But yes.

I think 2400mhz RAM should be fine, there might be some benefits, but I believe they would be slight at most probably not worth it if you are on a tight budget.
Definitely a lot less than moving from 8GB to 16GB.

 

[mazi]

I've been reading a lot of conflicting info about ram speed and frame rates....

sorry to chime in, but these answers were rather plain wrong.

To find out about your memory needs you have to look for yourself!

Most ppl on the internet confirmed that ED doesn't use lots of memory, so unless you have many things goin on in parallel there is no need for more RAM. Check the task manger yourself, extend the time window or use the system monitor to log the usage to see if more RAM is needed, i doubt it.

The question about the speed of RAM is - as with all upgrades - a question about the weakest link in your system!

Given the specs you provided the RAM might very well be the best part to put more money into. Do some research for "memory scaling 8600k" or "memory scaling coffee lake" to find out more. The thing is - there are games that are intense on RAM usage like Arma3 and other games that aren't. Tom my knowledge there are no reviews that looked into memory scaling of ED, if anybody knows one please post it!

When going for better memory speed the latency (CL or Cas latency ratings) and MHz are equally important. You'd always want to keep minimum "real" nanoseconds in memory access while trying to step up to another transfer speed grade, see greenish values in the example here.... you can use the first sheet to calculate your given speed and what a new RAM kit would offer, in case you get 20% more in MT/s or the nanoseconds, or 10% in each at the same time, it should very well be a recognizable upgrade...

Since you are at the high end of gaming equipment already, chances are you just compensate flaws in the game code, that might be fixed by the devs themselves one day... but in VR any stuttering avoided is a plus....

 

[Filmgeek47]

Hi Mazi,

Not at all, great to hear from everyone. I have actually looked myself, but haven’t found the information I was looking for, hence the thread. Task manager is showing me that about a gig and a half of my 8 gigs is compressed when running elite, so I assumed from that I’d have at least a small performance bump by increasing my ram capacity.

as you said, it doesn’t seem like anyone has done any scientific testing on how ram speed scales performance in elite. In most of the articles I’ve found, it seems like the vast majority of games don’t benefit much or at all with high speed ram, but I’ve been reading lots of personal testimony on the forums that potentially disagreed with that.