Pirate Vs Experienced Trader -- Lots of Fun... but Sad too.

[Dabba]

I don't have a patented solution but I agree with your last paragraph for the most part. I mean, the risk for the pirate is not getting anything, having to pay the cost for ammo, some hull damage from interdicting, pay the bounty and... well, not much else really. The risk is very low and the profit is usually not that great since targets are not always abundant. In the same situation a T7 has a rebuy cost of maybe a million + maybe up to 3 million in cargo. The risk is substantial and it is pushing people to trade in solo. Blowing up the T7 carries a bounty of maybe 6k for the pirate which is not really balanced towards the loss of the trader.

Some balancing is really in order here since all parties are whining at the moment, and for good reasons Maybe there ought to be a better way of stealing stuff without killing the target = win/win. Maybe boosting the limpets in some way.

Easy solution, the bounty for killing a player should be equal to the killed players insurance rebuy.

 

[OldSalt]

Sorry but this is poop. So a trader tools up and makes life hard for a pirate and they come on to the forums to gripe about it. Other way round and it would be 'get into solo' or the equally obnoxious 'care bear' chant. Really, grow some nuts.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

So let me get this straight, you interdict a player and they get away and it's all "well played". Well obviously you didn't mean that as you then interdicted the same player 3 times in a row... so what was that you taking personal offence or simple hubris? And then, when your revenge didn't work as you expected, FORUMS HOOOOOOOOO! and you start asking for FSD scramblers and the like. How about, like all the successful pirates in recorded history, you choose your targets well?

I continually interdict. Just because they get away once doesn't mean they will get away again. Clearly you are not a pirate. "Oh darn, he got away. He's still keeping the same course and I could try again.... but na... he got away once, why bother" I'll interdict until he warps out, reaches his destination, or I hit pay dirt.

No revenge interdiction, so your next point of "forums hoo" is moot. In what way could I choose my targets "well" with this mechanic? Any hauler can do it at any time. So... just eliminate haulers from my list of targets then? Do explain that one for me if you can.

 

[Dabba]

In what way could I choose my targets "well" with this mechanic? Any hauler can do it at any time. So... just eliminate haulers from my list of targets then? Do explain that one for me if you can.

You choose the targets that your ship is capable of mass locking. Not any hauler can do it, only ones that are bigger than you.

 

[Seonid]

In what way could I choose my targets "well" with this mechanic? Any hauler can do it at any time. So... just eliminate haulers from my list of targets then? Do explain that one for me if you can.

Does every target you have interdicted escape in this way? I think not. If they escaped once they can keep escaping, a fact which you know for certain having played the game for as long as you have. Personally, I would just have considered them "not worth the effort" and gone to find another target as a small yellow guy with pointy ears once said, "Time is money, friend."
How about this: if you want to allocate an internal slot for an FSD scrambler then I can allocate an internal slot (likely a cargo rack) for an FSD shield that prevents it being scrambled. Then it's a straight up arms race as large elements of the game already are. Sound fair?

 

[CMDR Saunders]

Sorry but this is poop. So a trader tools up and makes life hard for a pirate and they come on to the forums to gripe about it. Other way round and it would be 'get into solo' or the equally obnoxious 'care bear' chant. Really, grow some nuts.

Perhaps reading comprehension classes? You clearly didn't read the post correctly. Try again. I'm perfectly fine with everything he did and there was no griping... the interdiction/submit mechanic needs to be looked at as these interactions are mere seconds.

My overall point is, he had the tools to get away and he likely would have given even another 40 seconds (gasp!!). HOWEVER, my very next target was kitted for cargo only and he did the same tactic.... got away (then he pulled the plug on the next attempt). The second guy, he shouldn't have gotten away so easily. THE POINT IS it's just too fast when they "submit". If they are pulled out and they get away, that's fine. If they submit, the timing is laughable.

It's as though some of you are willfully neglecting the point and arguing with yourself, you somehow are seeing that I want piracy to be easy or "I win". Not true, I'd like these engagements to be LONGER, even if I'm on the losing side and the hauler is able to juke jive and get away without a single ton of lost cargo. These 8 second engagements of "submit, boost, warp, laugh" is the problem (in my opinion) -- not that they have tools to get away.

Please, exercise just a wee bit of critical thinking and actually read the post and it's entire content. Don't insert your own made up argument into my mouth and then respond to that made up argument.

Oldsalt, this wasn't aimed at you in particular, just anyone that seems to think I came here complaining and crying that the mean old hauler got away.... when it's obvious from my post how I actually feel about the encounter.

 

[Dabba]

It's as though some of you are willfully neglecting the point and arguing with yourself, you somehow are seeing that I want piracy to be easy or "I win". Not true, I'd like these engagements to be LONGER, even if I'm on the losing side and the hauler is able to juke jive and get away without a single ton of lost cargo. These 8 second engagements of "submit, boost, warp, laugh" is the problem (in my opinion) -- not that they have tools to get away.

It seems you are willfully neglecting the point that there is already a mechanic in place to deal with this. Its called mass lock. You just aren't picking the appropriate targets for the ship you are using.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I'd pirate all day long if I could find plenty of traders like this, but since most of them just flop around in the headlights of my ship like a fish out of water and get pointlessly shot up I'll stick with hunting the pirates who hunt the traders. They're much better at fighting.

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It seems you are willfully neglecting the point that there is already a mechanic in place to deal with this. Its called mass lock. You just aren't picking the appropriate targets for the ship you are using.

Some ships need to be fixed before this is an appropriate statement in regards to mass locking a type 6.

 

[Flying Penguin]

I continually interdict. Just because they get away once doesn't mean they will get away again. Clearly you are not a pirate. "Oh darn, he got away. He's still keeping the same course and I could try again.... but na... he got away once, why bother" I'll interdict until he warps out, reaches his destination, or I hit pay dirt.

No revenge interdiction, so your next point of "forums hoo" is moot. In what way could I choose my targets "well" with this mechanic? Any hauler can do it at any time. So... just eliminate haulers from my list of targets then? Do explain that one for me if you can.

And that's a valid response if it's a close run thing or you are managing to dent his hull, but surely at some point you have to work out that this one's "just not gonna happen". Either he's too good or you don't have the right tools for the job.

At some point you have to realise you don't have a shot and are now just doing it to spite him. I'm not saying you griefed him (at least not by your description), but blindly interdicting until you finally can't get hold of him isn't exactly sporting.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

Does every target you have interdicted escape in this way? I think not. If they escaped once they can keep escaping, a fact which you know for certain having played the game for as long as you have. Personally, I would just have considered them "not worth the effort" and gone to find another target as a small yellow guy with pointy ears once said, "Time is money, friend."
How about this: if you want to allocate an internal slot for an FSD scrambler then I can allocate an internal slot (likely a cargo rack) for an FSD shield that prevents it being scrambled. Then it's a straight up arms race as large elements of the game already are. Sound fair?

They can, but they might not. Every attempt is different. Coming out of warp, I may be right on top of him. We might be facing each other, we might be facing away and 2km from each other. The distance and direction is different. So no, just because he got away once does not mean he'll get away again. And if I can do a little damage each time (or just drop shields and launch limpets), that 4th interdiction make make him open to negotiation with only 30% hull left. But, it depends on the circumstances. And don't blame me for their poor planning. Rather than warp to another system, change course, drop out of warp quickly then change to another system, they simply keep on keepin on. They think they can hold the course and not be interdicted again. That's their own foolish fault.

A submit, boost, warp player won't ever succumb to any piracy attempt, ever. Not because of their tools, but because of this 5 to 8 second mechanic. To simply say "ignore them and pick another target" is ignoring the issue as a whole.

And yes, your idea sounds absolutely fair and I have no problem with it. Fact is, just like now with shields, money hungry traders will forgo the FSD anti scrambler and they will make for easier targets. The tried and true traders will have these equipped and they will be tougher to interdict... but with good reason because of an equipped module, not some weird mechnaic. At that point, I can't say diddly as the TRADER was properly equipped. If I ask for a second warp scramber because it's so hard, then you know I'm just a whiny troll.

So no, I have no problem with your proposed idea and think it would make an excellent addition to my idea of a proposed FSD scrambler. You need the balance otherwise it's an I WIN button.

It does seem that an ASP is what I need to be using for pirating. Perhaps when I get one of those, this "problem" will go away. But it will still remain for cobras cmdrs who engage in piracy or even bounty hunting.

 

[Tigga]

Honestly, mass locking needs to be more analogue. A Cobra is actually a higher hull mass than a Type-6. There should be some penalty on the FSD of the Type-6, even if it's only 2x.

 

[Darian]

I think they should make it very hard for an pirate to cash in because if it becomes easy you soon have all haulers playing in solo and only heavy armed and shielded fighters in open play.
Making money with trade is not that much the way they are tweaking the trade systhem and bounty hunters always howling for higher bounties.
Should Frontier start to nerf the haulers in defense or make it to easy for pirates there will be soon only tank 'condas flying around for you to chase.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

It seems you are willfully neglecting the point that there is already a mechanic in place to deal with this. Its called mass lock. You just aren't picking the appropriate targets for the ship you are using.

That is a fair point. I suppose I'll have to see how much time this "mass lock" adds to the equation when pirating in an asp.

 

[Dabba]

Some ships need to be fixed before this is an appropriate statement in regards to mass locking a type 6.

As far as I know the only broken ship in terms of mass lock is the Clipper, but correct me if Im wrong. Now that should absolutely be fixed asap, but I dont think one bugged ship is a good reason to introduce a whole new mechanic to stop people jumping away when there is already a mechanic for that in place.

 

[Morbius]

My suggestion, let ships get mass-locked if near multiple smaller ships (allowing 2-3 vipers to mass-lock bigger prey), and if a ship is too small to mass-lock the opponent at all, it would make sense that, if the small ship was close enough, it could get 'carried' into the jump.

For example,

I'm in a Viper going against a T6-9, he starts boosting away and charging FSD. I manage to get within 500m, but my small mass does not allow me to mass lock him, but instead, the FSD is able to include my mass to his mass and pull us both into witch-space. This would still allow traders to submit and get away, but now they have to use a bit more tactics to ensure they are over 500m away when FSD finishes charging and they are up against a smaller vessel that cannot mass lock them. If they are up against a ship that CAN mass-lock them, it will simply work as it does now.

 

[Tas Devil]

That is a fair point. I suppose I'll have to see how much time this "mass lock" adds to the equation when pirating in an asp.

Enough

 

[Flying Penguin]

My suggestion, let ships get mass-locked if near multiple smaller ships (allowing 2-3 vipers to mass-lock bigger prey), and if a ship is too small to mass-lock the opponent at all, it would make sense that, if the small ship was close enough, it could get 'carried' into the jump.

For example,

I'm in a Viper going against a T6-9, he starts boosting away and charging FSD. I manage to get within 500m, but my small mass does not allow me to mass lock him, but instead, the FSD is able to include my mass to his mass and pull us both into witch-space. This would still allow traders to submit and get away, but now they have to use a bit more tactics to ensure they are over 500m away when FSD finishes charging and they are up against a smaller vessel that cannot mass lock them. If they are up against a ship that CAN mass-lock them, it will simply work as it does now.

Still a pirate "I win" button. If I'm in my T-9, with B7 thrusters I can maintain about 200 if I boost constantly. Any ship that can't mass lock me can catch me with ease, and anything that can mass lock me will catch me well before my FSD spools. If I'm now going to have to deal with parasite ships if I can't maintain distance (I can't), then I'm royally screwed whatever I do.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

My suggestion, let ships get mass-locked if near multiple smaller ships (allowing 2-3 vipers to mass-lock bigger prey), and if a ship is too small to mass-lock the opponent at all, it would make sense that, if the small ship was close enough, it could get 'carried' into the jump.

For example,

I'm in a Viper going against a T6-9, he starts boosting away and charging FSD. I manage to get within 500m, but my small mass does not allow me to mass lock him, but instead, the FSD is able to include my mass to his mass and pull us both into witch-space. This would still allow traders to submit and get away, but now they have to use a bit more tactics to ensure they are over 500m away when FSD finishes charging and they are up against a smaller vessel that cannot mass lock them. If they are up against a ship that CAN mass-lock them, it will simply work as it does now.

I opened a thread suggesting the combined mass of nearby ships should effect larger vessels, but no-one seem interested in the idea.

 

[Defacto]

I think that masslocking should reworked, so that the base value of the slowdown is based on the chaser's mass, and have the effect decrease by the square of the distance, and always going away beyond 3 km like now.
The class difference between the FSD would also play a role: basically:

A 200t ship with Class 4 FSD vs Ship with class 2 FSD at 1km: 40x slowdown
A 400t ship with class 4 FSD vs ship with class 2 FSD at 1 km: 80 x slowdown
A 200t ship with Class 4 FSD vs Ship with class 2 FSD at 2 km: 10x slowdown
A 200 t ship with class 4 FSD vs Ship with class 4 FSD at 2km: 5x slowdown

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

As far as I know the only broken ship in terms of mass lock is the Clipper, but correct me if Im wrong. Now that should absolutely be fixed asap, but I dont think one bugged ship is a good reason to introduce a whole new mechanic to stop people jumping away when there is already a mechanic for that in place.

I don't think the Federal Dropship or the Python are 100% correct on their ability to mass lock either, and let's be honest. The Anaconda isn't going to lock anything down long enough to matter.
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So one out of three ships is completely broken for mass locking and the other two need a bit of scrutiny. I don't fly them, but I do notice that they are extremely easy to get away from when I find myself on the receiving end.