Pirate Vs Experienced Trader -- Lots of Fun... but Sad too.

[Cargobane]

You are being completely two-faced in your own argument. You said it yourself. He was bigger/better then you, and he should have got away anyway, but you think the mechanic he used to get away is flawed. Would it be better if it could turn and kill you instead?

You wanted a fight, and he hit the gas. You being upset is natural, learning to deal with it make take some meditation. Next time, as other's have already said, learn the correct counter and get the boom-sticks out if you want to hold on to the fish that's outweighs your ship.

 

[DreadPirateRoberts]

I think things are fine the way they are. If a pirate wants something s/he should have to earn it, not just be able to take you out of SC and demand your stuff or you die. I love doing the dance with my Type 6 when I get interdicted. I'm never stupid enough to let the enemy approach or give them time to talk - just twist and smack the throttle, make them think they have you, then change tactic until the FSD is back up - then pop out of there, and change path so it's not easy to just follow along with you.

Here's an even crazier thought for all of the would-be pirates...why should FD cater to some notion that they should be able to 1v1 every other ship in the game? Have they ever thought of...oh...I dunno...working together?

 

[Remiel]

Just pulled over a type 6 who was clearly very experienced. Had chaff, point defense, shields, and shield cell (from the look of the never weakening shields from the first volley). He wasn't trading necessary defense for more cargo space (fast cash) and he was hauling rare goods (scanned him) in the open. Major props to that; wish there were more like him.

The roughly 10 seconds I got to fire on him was incredibly fun and makes me realize why I love this game. This guy was hauling and he knew the dangers of the universe and he equipped accordingly. Threw out chaff, point defense destroyed my missiles, any shots incoming nullified by shield cell. He was ready to rock. Even though he got away, it was pretty damn awesome. This is how traders should be traveling and be ready for combat.

Of course.... this awesomeness was cut short by the fact that he submitted to interdiction and warped immediately away (3 times), essentially nullifying any chance of success against him -- thus cheapening the experience overall. Completely impossible to actually pirate a t6 or above in the current state of the game (any hauler that takes advantage of submit, warp, laugh technique).

It's a bit of a game spoiler at the moment and makes piracy far less fun when any juicy target can do this at will.

I am completely willing to lose these encounters and have the hauler get away (especially when he is so prepared like this guy was)... just want a bit more time to get the chance to succeed. 8 to 12 seconds (if your lucky) just isn't enough time.

How does this technique fair against a pirate asp? Is it the same thing or will the asp's mass stop this tactic and enable better piracy?

I personally hope they come out with FSD scramblers or something along those lines. Not permanent, but a 30sec to 2 minute delay, or something along those lines. Until then, I'll just grin and bear it every time I get a "submitter". Might actually open fire on those and not even give the option, because if you submit, you are likely going for that tactic.

Just want to hear opinions on this.

Saunders Out

It sounds like you came up against someone who knew exactly what they were doing. To use that as your example to substantiate the claim that it's completely impossible to pirate a T6 or above is ridiculous. If you were being honest, you'd say, it was highly unlikely you were going to stop him. However, with persistence, if you felt it was worth it, if you'd pressed on interdicting him, there's always the chance he'll make a mistake. And make no mistake, there will always be idiots who don't know what they're doing, you can bank on that.

I don't see 'FSD scramblers' as being something that would add to Elite in the same way warp scramblers add to EVE, though. Your experience wasn't cheapened because he got away, because in every encounter, there is a winner and a loser - you lost. In the event of a player submission, there's a good chance they've either chosen to fight, or they intend to reduce they FSD cooldown and escape quickly. You have to be prepared for these eventualities, just as you have to be prepared for haulers packing warp core stabilisers, MWDs and cloaking devices in EVE. In a sense, in this game, your ship's mass is an FSD scrambler and while it is not a surefire way of preventing an escape, it will make an escape that much harder.

Also, I know that even on a submission, a well-equipped ship can knock out the shields and cause a lot of damage on a T6 very quickly within the small cooldown period because I've done it twice. It's not easy, granted I've had more escape than I've successfully pirated, but it's definitely not impossible.

The way I do it: shoot first. Open fire until they've got less than 50% structure remaining, then I ask them, "How much do you value the survival of your ship, and the opportunity to continue trading, once we're done here?" If you initiate with coms, you give them a chance to escape in the time it takes to type it all out. Speed and efficiency are of the essence, because if they haven't already started charging FSD by the time you reach 50%, you can rest assured they're about to, because they're assuming they're gonna die anyway. If you get to this point, where they're already assuming the worst, telling them the worst doesn't have to happen is often a moment of reprieve, and relief, so much so that they will often be quite thankful rather than mad.

 

[hanks01]

If you can't even mass lock a Hauler then what kind of pirate are you? If you can't take down a tooled up T6 after 3 interdictions (which is fine) then he's obviously too well equipped for your current ship. No rebalancing or added fsd cool down needed, he's just a bigger fish than you can fry. So try for another fish.

If people on both sides of the fence are complaining then perhaps nothing needs rebalancing at all. If pirates are successfully getting traders and traders are successfully evading pirates perhaps it's all working as it should. If you tool up well to pirate or trade then you should know what you can and can't escape/rob.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Here's an even crazier thought for all of the would-be pirates...why should FD cater to some notion that they should be able to 1v1 every other ship in the game? Have they ever thought of...oh...I dunno...working together?

Oh you mean work together when there are no mechanics or benefit to doing so? even if somehow you could get to your fellow pirates framewake in time, more ships wont mass lock a type 6. You could have 10 cobras and one type 6 and the type 6 will still be able to jump in 10 seconds.

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If you can't even mass lock a Hauler then what kind of pirate are you? If you can't take down a tooled up T6 after 3 interdictions (which is fine) then he's obviously too well equipped for your current ship. No rebalancing or added fsd cool down needed, he's just a bigger fish than you can fry. So try for another fish.

Is this a joke? Its just flat out impossible to mass lock a type 6 in anything less than an asp (or another type 6 but haha gl with that) it doesnt matter distance, a type 6 can jump out unopposed.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

You are being completely two-faced in your own argument. You said it yourself. He was bigger/better then you, and he should have got away anyway, but you think the mechanic he used to get away is flawed. Would it be better if it could turn and kill you instead?

You wanted a fight, and he hit the gas. You being upset is natural, learning to deal with it make take some meditation. Next time, as other's have already said, learn the correct counter and get the boom-sticks out if you want to hold on to the fish that's outweighs your ship.

No, you simply fail to grasp the argument. Yes, he would have likely got away anyway based on his toolset and the fact that I did less than 15% shield damage to him over about 8 seconds.... times that by 3 or even 4, and you're looking at 24 to 30 seconds of avoidance and warp without ever bringing down his shields. However, this is my opinion based on that very short encounter -- I don't know what happens over the course of those hypothetical 30 seconds; if he makes a mistake, doesn't put pips to engines, acidently hits silent running, etc. Point is, I don't get to find out in a test of skill. So, instead of a longer, more engaging encounter in which there is a clear winner based on skill (better trader pilot vs better pirate) -- we get this short 5-8 second encounter that is a worthless event with the same outcome each time.

 

[Remiel]

Oh you mean work together when there are no mechanics or benefit to doing so?

Despite this, many people are still finding ways to work together.

 

[hanks01]

Not a joke. When I said Hauler I was referring to the ship. If you need an asp to mass lock a type 6 then you have two options.

1) Buy an asp.

2) Kit out a ship that can do heavy damage very quickly.

An Asp pilot was complaining that an Eagle destroyed him in seconds after interdiction the other day so I'm sure a pilot could equip a loadout that would work against a type 6.

 

[Cargobane]

I don't get to find out in a test of skill

And I aruge that you did, but you fail to grasp it because you're too worried about some apparent game design mechanic being the fault.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

And I aruge that you did, but you fail to grasp it because you're too worried about some apparent game design mechanic being the fault.

An 8 second test of skill, that involves one boost and less than 10 pulse laser shots? Well, if that's your idea of a good amount of time for a test of pilot skill, then we have no more to talk about. That is a delusional notion. The most skillful pilot is the one that can zero throttle, hit boost, engage warp. Yes, a test of skill indeed because he survived 8 seconds. Please reread tiggas post at the top of this page. You are still lost to this concept.

 

[hanks01]

Commander Saunders, this isn't so much about a test of twitch pilotting skills, it's a test of ship loadouts. If a Cobra can't mass lock a Type 6 then they have to examine their options of how they can stand a chance to damage one in 8 seconds.

Whether evading pirates as a trader or baring enough teeth to get a running trader to drop cargo it's often down to who has equipped what. If you interdict someone a 2nd time and you know they're an instant runner then ensure you have equipped yourself accordingly.

 

[Dabba]

An 8 second test of skill, that involves one boost and less than 10 pulse laser shots? Well, if that's your idea of a good amount of time for a test of pilot skill, then we have no more to talk about. That is a delusional notion. The most skillful pilot is the one that can zero throttle, hit boost, engage warp. Yes, a test of skill indeed because he survived 8 seconds. Please reread tiggas post at the top of this page. You are still lost to this concept.

The thing is Tigga also points out quite rightly in her post that because of the scenario and ships in question there really isnt a way to make this a skill test in the way you seem to be thinking.

You're talking about an agile and armed fighter craft against an unarmed oversized tomato can. Where the "skill" comes into play in this particular contest is the proper target acquisition by the pirate, which in this case you failed at, and for the trader its being outfitted for and knowing the best way to escape, which in this case he succeeded at. If you're looking for twitch reflex skill based dogfights picking on unarmed tomato cans isn't really the way to go.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

The thing is Tigga also points out quite rightly in her post that because of the scenario and ships in question there really isnt a way to make this a skill test in the way you seem to be thinking.

You're talking about an agile and armed fighter craft against an unarmed oversized tomato can. Where the "skill" comes into play in this particular contest is the proper target acquisition by the pirate, which in this case you failed at, and for the trader its being outfitted for and knowing the best way to escape, which in this case he succeeded at. If you're looking for skill based dogfights picking on unarmed tomato cans isn't really the way to go.

I didn't say I had the answer either. There isn't a way that we've thought of.... doesn't mean there isn't a way. To be honest, I think giving the trader another utility slot or two (depending on the ship) could help with this.

You know, I get it, you like to say "I failed" at target picking (essentially saying I should only pirate cobras in a cobra because anything bigger will just get away. So, all haulers are off limits or I should at least expect this EVERY SINGLE TIME). I get it, you think I failed picking a target, I disagree, lets move on.

Unarmed in the sense of "offensive fire power" but by no means defenseless. Chaff, point defense, ECM, mines, auto turret are all viable means of protection and keeping yourself alive if pirated. It's not an oversized tomato can waiting to be pulverized by any tiny blaster bolt... it's a tomato can with options.

Yes, he succeeded in escaping, but not via his skill or his tools... he escaped because he used the magic 8 second auto eject button.

Never used the phrase "skilled dog fight". Not after that. Dog fighting has nothing to do with a skilled hauler using tools and tricks to escape from a skilled pirate armed to the teeth. Pirating is a chase. Cat and mouse. Nothing about dog fighting combat. For instance....

I use gimballed, he deploys chaff. I launch missiles, he has point defense or ecm or heat sinks. I launch limpets, he keeps spinning and boosting until shields are up to prevent the limpet from attaching to cargo bay. I try to boost to catch up and he lays down a line of mines to slow down my progress. He sees I'm gaining and he releases his torpedo at close range; the one he has been saving for a rainy day. Interaction, skill, tools, an actual worthwhile event between pirate and player. This is the type of pirate interaction that I seek. Not a simple... pow pow... pew pew... boom...scoop... yeah, me best at piratz! The kind of interaction that you leave and say that guy was a trader ready for action!

I feel this 8 second submit, boost, warp tactic cheapens the experience, be it win or lose. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I know others feel the same way. Time will tell if it's an issue worth attention.

I am clearly arguing my previous position -- as I've since learned using an "ASP" is the way to get more "time" during these interactions. However, even with that said, that essentially means the cobra shouldn't be used for pirating anything other than cobras or adders due to this issue. After all, if every hauler can do it to you at will.....

So, having said ALL THAT, it seems that type of interaction I described a moment ago might indeed be possible with the asp and it's mass lock effect... just not possible with the cobra... which I suppose is the answer I've been looking for.

So... case closed... Just need to get an asp to mass lock haulers as cobras are apparently a very poor pirate ship for anything other than cobras or lesser ship types.

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Commander Saunders, this isn't so much about a test of twitch pilotting skills, it's a test of ship loadouts. If a Cobra can't mass lock a Type 6 then they have to examine their options of how they can stand a chance to damage one in 8 seconds.

Whether evading pirates as a trader or baring enough teeth to get a running trader to drop cargo it's often down to who has equipped what. If you interdict someone a 2nd time and you know they're an instant runner then ensure you have equipped yourself accordingly.

If this is the intent -- 5 to 8 second encounters because of mass size -- then yes, I'll have to just grin and bear it and work my way to ASP.

 

[Dabba]

So... case closed... Just need to get an asp to mass lock haulers as cobras are apparently a very poor pirate ship for anything other than cobras or lesser ship types.If this is the intent -- 5 to 8 second encounters because of mass size -- then yes, I'll have to just grin and bear it and work my way to ASP.

Granted most people are stupid and Id say the % of traders you are going to encounter that are skilled like the one in your original post is going to be a pretty small number, so you can keep picking off T6s and will probably get the best of most of them, you're just going to have to accept that when you come across one that is skilled, ie knows what theyre doing, hes going to get away.

Of course when you're in your Asp and try to interdict a T7 or bigger with a pilot that knows what hes doing and he submits and jumps out in 10 seconds you're just going to be right back here complaining about it again.

 

[Warlord Greebo]

You lack doctrine...

Why would you engage anyone without the necessary implements to assure a win?

In this case, that means a wingman to take down the vet traders. Other than that you are just doing a flight sim duel.

That being said it is promising to me personally, since it means Ill be able to trade my shiny grobbles all over the universe with nothing but amatuer pirates to face

GREEBLE GROBBLE!!!

 

[CMDR Saunders]

Granted most people are stupid and Id say the % of traders you are going to encounter that are skilled like the one in your original post is going to be a pretty small number. Of course when you're in your Asp and try to interdict a T7 or bigger with a pilot that knows what hes doing and he submits and jumps out in 10 seconds you're just going to be right back here complaining about it again.

Thankfully... I have yet to see a t7... so perhaps that is a long long long time coming.

 

[Neuros]

Although you didn't lose, you just didn't win. At best it was a draw as a loss would have ended in your death. A draw is all a trader can hope for in the current game since a T6/T7 doesn't stand a chance of defeating a pirate regardless of what ship the pirate is using, which is sad.

Edit - There really is far too low risk pirating. Even on the odd chance you WOULD get killed you lose far, far less. I hope they bring in trade insurance, that should at least help a bit.

I am a trader and I disagree with trade insurance as trading makes money far faster than any other method, is it fair that people who want to explore can't afford to cover the repair costs with just exploring alone so are forced to trade?
Pirating is not very lucrative even when you get somebody to submit as if you are not reasonable with your demands the merchant will just run any way.
Mining is not very well implemented yet so all that leaves is the big fat cat traders and if you start making trading any easier then I personal feel that this would make the game worse.

I FSD scrambler that increases the FSD charge rate sounds great and I can see where OP is coming from but it would break people who do not submit and as such I feel that this might also break what little balance there is with this situation. only way I could see it maybe working is if the scrambler had very little ammo and the ammo for it was pretty expensive, forcing the pirate to really think before it is used.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

You're talking about an agile and armed fighter craft against an unarmed oversized tomato can. Where the "skill" comes into play in this particular contest is the proper target acquisition by the pirate, which in this case you failed at, and for the trader its being outfitted for and knowing the best way to escape, which in this case he succeeded at. If you're looking for twitch reflex skill based dogfights picking on unarmed tomato cans isn't really the way to go.

The way the mass lock is now it forces even worse match ups. The viper or cobra vs hauler is extremely lopsided, the asp vs type 6 isn't even close, and clipper or dropship vs type 7 is terrible too. It's like the devs want you to only pirate ships that you can curbstomp in 10 seconds flat.


And don't even get me started on the submit button. That's the best defense in the game, better than chaffs, PDTs, ecm, heat sinks, hell, even shield cells, all pale in comparison. Worst of all it's free and has zero downsides. I don't know for what reason the submit cooldown is 1/4th of the interdiction failure cooldown. It doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Dabba]

The way the mass lock is now it forces even worse match ups. The viper or cobra vs hauler is extremely lopsided, the asp vs type 6 isn't even close, and clipper or dropship vs type 7 is terrible too. It's like the devs want you to only pirate ships that you can curbstomp in 10 seconds flat.

And don't even get me started on the submit button. That's the best defense in the game, better than chaffs, PDTs, ecm, heat sinks, hell, even shield cells, all pale in comparison. Worst of all it's free and has zero downsides. I don't know for what reason the submit cooldown is 1/4th of the interdiction failure cooldown. It doesn't seem right to me.

The reason mass lock works the way it does is a matter of balance. It simply would be massively unfair and imbalanced for people in a 300k ship to have the upper hand on someone that has 20 million invested into theirs, so they have the mass lock mechanic in place so that you can only effectively pirate ships in the same price range as the one you are flying in if the trader pilot knows what they're doing.

As far as what doesnt seem right to you, if you've chosen preying on harmless and hard working traders and forcibly stealing from them as a pirate for financial gain I think its pretty clear that your moral compass as to what is right and wrong is not functioning properly.

 

[JACyo]

Oh FSD scramblers again... Just... No. I'd suggest to "tweak" the mass lock factor / range (and hopefully a more dynamic lock factor in relation to distance) will do if you insists there need another "balance pass" of this matter...
If you seriously want some kind of magic item, I've seen (and actually do think it is better) a suggestion before that is rather than a FSD scrambler, the item will create a mass field that temporary disguise your ship as if a bigger ship to mass lock others in expense of whatever you guys come up with as long as it limits the time of use.

For "submitters", if you decide to start KOS, that just makes you a psychopath from their perspective once got interdicted and 100% sure will flee, which in turn reinforce your feeling of the need to KOS all submitters and end up in the viscus circle turning you into an actual psychopath rather than a pirate. I urge you to reconsider this...