Pirate Vs Experienced Trader -- Lots of Fun... but Sad too.
- Thread starter CMDR Saunders
- Start date
Ironically there's not a pirate in existence that doesn't use the same boost>boost>fsd escape method when a BH turns up. Start adding FSD scramblers and rubbish like that, things will get messy very quickly.
To add to the above, hull damage caused by winning interdiction and subsequent repair costs mean that currently players succumbing to interdiction should be welcomed. As it stands BH a human pirate is worthless as the damage incurred by just interdicting him exceeds the value of the bounty. Add then the recent examples of instant evenge killing taking advantage of a gamaged victor and its pretty clear which element of this whole mechanism needs reviewing.
To add to the above, hull damage caused by winning interdiction and subsequent repair costs mean that currently players succumbing to interdiction should be welcomed. As it stands BH a human pirate is worthless as the damage incurred by just interdicting him exceeds the value of the bounty. Add then the recent examples of instant evenge killing taking advantage of a gamaged victor and its pretty clear which element of this whole mechanism needs reviewing.
Things will change when "Wings" will be enabled on future patches.
Right now you are talking about a 1 vs 1 fight between a trader and a pirtate: the only way to win, for a trader, is escape; he won't have any decent equipment to fight back.
With future patches traders will fly with an escort or pirates will hunt in groups: this way your "problem" will be solved
Right now you are talking about a 1 vs 1 fight between a trader and a pirtate: the only way to win, for a trader, is escape; he won't have any decent equipment to fight back.
With future patches traders will fly with an escort or pirates will hunt in groups: this way your "problem" will be solved
Let do MATH
My t9 6 million rebuy
Freight av 2-3 million
One trigger happy "pirate" would cost me in open about 7 mill
that is two to three days trading.
I think pirating should be very very complicated and hard given the odds and the bill on my side of the fence.
And guns and shields should not take that much off cargo space, yes i can turn my t9 into an fortress but shields, cells and guns take so much space and jump range i rather use an conda for trading and then pirates look down the barrels of many many guns.
Given the cost reward ratio i would not trade at all though.
Or remain in solo mode because i am just not in the mood to have to bother with game mechanics that make bounty hunting more profitable than trading.
The fun in trading is in the money earned, not in zipping between three or four systhems for and back, and you can bet that if they make traders so tough to crack that it is no fun for the pirates anymore only then you will see more in open mode.
Remember people play this game to have fun, and it is very very hard to make it fun for an player to have an ridicioulous slow and expensive ship shot to pieces, plus the cargo.
You whine that pirating is no fun that way, but consider not that there is very little fun involved for the player flying the hauler.
One trade run nets if lucky 600.000 credits, do the math how many traderuns until only the cargo is paid for, plus how much the ship costs and fuel and what not (fuel scooping in open is rather intense)
As soon pirating comes even close to 25% chance in favour of the pirate you will only have fighters in open play.
And it has not to be you really, it is enough to have maybe five or ten pirates who shoot and scoop to drive all traders out of it.
And i really have trouble to see anything like body guards happening for traders, they would have to follow an slumbering ship around for how much credits? So you would have to make trading much more profitable to have someone who likes to fly fighters to such an boring thing, so the trader can pay a lot of money for protection.
So if Frontier wants a lot of traders in open they have to make guns influence weight (and therefore jumprange) a lot, beef up profits from trading and make shields tougher and cost less in weight and jump range too, because otherwise the only ones doing trading in open in Elite will be phyton and condas.
((and no, staying in "safe" systhems in elite is not an option, i got jumped in Sol crawling with police so aint't happen that i play in open))
Even if an pirate puts 9 mill into its ship, the pirate sits in the craft that can run anytime, the 9 mill the trader sits in not that much, and he has to do a lot of trading to get there.
I did some bounty hunting on npc for sh.. and giggles and raked in more bounty in the same time i do trading, so well, i think the systhem is already way much focused on the fighters, so why nerf trading more?
My t9 6 million rebuy
Freight av 2-3 million
One trigger happy "pirate" would cost me in open about 7 mill
that is two to three days trading.
I think pirating should be very very complicated and hard given the odds and the bill on my side of the fence.
And guns and shields should not take that much off cargo space, yes i can turn my t9 into an fortress but shields, cells and guns take so much space and jump range i rather use an conda for trading and then pirates look down the barrels of many many guns.
Given the cost reward ratio i would not trade at all though.
Or remain in solo mode because i am just not in the mood to have to bother with game mechanics that make bounty hunting more profitable than trading.
The fun in trading is in the money earned, not in zipping between three or four systhems for and back, and you can bet that if they make traders so tough to crack that it is no fun for the pirates anymore only then you will see more in open mode.
Remember people play this game to have fun, and it is very very hard to make it fun for an player to have an ridicioulous slow and expensive ship shot to pieces, plus the cargo.
You whine that pirating is no fun that way, but consider not that there is very little fun involved for the player flying the hauler.
One trade run nets if lucky 600.000 credits, do the math how many traderuns until only the cargo is paid for, plus how much the ship costs and fuel and what not (fuel scooping in open is rather intense)
As soon pirating comes even close to 25% chance in favour of the pirate you will only have fighters in open play.
And it has not to be you really, it is enough to have maybe five or ten pirates who shoot and scoop to drive all traders out of it.
And i really have trouble to see anything like body guards happening for traders, they would have to follow an slumbering ship around for how much credits? So you would have to make trading much more profitable to have someone who likes to fly fighters to such an boring thing, so the trader can pay a lot of money for protection.
So if Frontier wants a lot of traders in open they have to make guns influence weight (and therefore jumprange) a lot, beef up profits from trading and make shields tougher and cost less in weight and jump range too, because otherwise the only ones doing trading in open in Elite will be phyton and condas.
((and no, staying in "safe" systhems in elite is not an option, i got jumped in Sol crawling with police so aint't happen that i play in open))
Even if an pirate puts 9 mill into its ship, the pirate sits in the craft that can run anytime, the 9 mill the trader sits in not that much, and he has to do a lot of trading to get there.
I did some bounty hunting on npc for sh.. and giggles and raked in more bounty in the same time i do trading, so well, i think the systhem is already way much focused on the fighters, so why nerf trading more?
the FSD cooldown from submitting is still far too short. anyone trying to argue otherwise is a carebear pandering to their own playstyle. the balance is completely skewed in the favor of the trader at the moment, it is completely impossible to do anything to ANY player, let alone a trader, that wants to run after submitting.
triggering FSD submission should have the same cooldown as an emergency drop. the interdiction event is a very fair and balanced method for catching players, and its a total crock of that FD has decided to allow players to completely undermine this mechanic by having the FSD submission cooldown so low.
my suggestion is to re-design frame shift scanners so they work in supercruise, and upon successfully using one on another player, will cause their FSD submission timer (should they choose to submit) to be significantly longer, which will ultimately end up promoting skill-based competition between the pirate and his victims via the FSD interdiction mechanic.
triggering FSD submission should have the same cooldown as an emergency drop. the interdiction event is a very fair and balanced method for catching players, and its a total crock of that FD has decided to allow players to completely undermine this mechanic by having the FSD submission cooldown so low.
my suggestion is to re-design frame shift scanners so they work in supercruise, and upon successfully using one on another player, will cause their FSD submission timer (should they choose to submit) to be significantly longer, which will ultimately end up promoting skill-based competition between the pirate and his victims via the FSD interdiction mechanic.
This is about the only suggested alteration to the existing interdiction mechanism that I think would work out well.
As a Trader that has always mounted Shields and have considered adding in shield charges... i wouldn't be too adverse to there being a slightly longer FSD cool down time for submitting/jumping... HOWEVER i also feel that any amount of cool down time that a merchant receives (either lost the interdiction or submitted) the pirate needs to receive 2x the cool down time to prevent the rapid repeat interdiction...
if a Trader escapes a Interdiction he really ought to not be subject to an immediate re-interdiction
if a Trader escapes a Interdiction he really ought to not be subject to an immediate re-interdiction
It's not impossible, but actions have to happen quickly. I think I'm fairly good at the submit then immediately run as fast as I can, but when Tigga interdicted my Cobra (which was about as light and fast as one carrying worth while cargo can be), he was still able to deliver damage to me before I was able to escape his mass lock.
There are a lot of players who are much slower on the draw than me. If the cooldown is increased, or changes to mass lock not carefully looked at, it could shift the balance much too far in favor of piracy. Assuming roughly equivalent skill, and competent loadouts, prey escaping should still be a frequent occurrence.
It could be a bit less methodical though. Maybe more random distance and facing after interdiction...
Repeat interdictions can already be avoided. It takes a little time, but it's hardly impossible.
Those who simply leap back into SC and then go straight for the same SC destination they were headed for before interdiction are being foolish.
A) the CareBear(tm) bat comes out as soon it is not in the way the user wants.
B) Before you talk game mechanics you need to consider two sides, what is in it for the trader.
Does trading make such an ammount of money that the trader accepts the risk of an loss of a few millions (freight and ship rebuild)
The Pirate looses a little time spend and has an exiting chase if the trader gets away, the trader risks millions who take some time to gain back.
Further shields and guns weight, and reduce jump range for an silly ammount (mass of weapons+shield compared to mass of ship)
So the trader has to sacrifice a lot of freight space and jump range to carry shields and weapons (need an bigger powerplant too do not forget for all the shields, plus bigger power systhem and so on)
The way it is in Elite if an trader wants to be protectet to an sane degree the freighter carries not much anymore and costs even more rebuild, the profit from trading goes way way down. Per run and per hour.
So what is in it for the trader?
I have seen it in every online game so faar, the fighter role type whining that they have such an hard time, and that they should have it better and that people who want to make PvP a tough thing are carebears.
When they get what they want they whine that everyone sticks to the safe places and they are all pansies who do not want to get ganked, and if there are no safe places tthey whine that noone wants to risk there precious ship/gear whatever.
So you need to have somethign in there for the trader.
Capice???
I wouldn't mind them adding an FSD scrambler. Not something that blocks it entirely, but trading a utility slot for something that basically creates fake mass to slow the charge a bit if you can get close - that could be interesting.
Other than that, I completely agree with the traders on here. They're the ones with something to lose, and yet the pirates are scoring them just getting away as a win. No, for them you win you have to lose. How about giving the bounty hunters a leg up to even things out? I'd like a phony transponder, please. It makes your iron-ass Viper look like a fat freighter full of rare exports, pirate interdicts, hello!
Maybe introducing a pirate lose state would make them stop complaining about a stalemate.
Other than that, I completely agree with the traders on here. They're the ones with something to lose, and yet the pirates are scoring them just getting away as a win. No, for them you win you have to lose. How about giving the bounty hunters a leg up to even things out? I'd like a phony transponder, please. It makes your iron-ass Viper look like a fat freighter full of rare exports, pirate interdicts, hello!
Maybe introducing a pirate lose state would make them stop complaining about a stalemate.
I don't disagree, but right now there's a really fun, cool interdiction escape mechanic that pits pilot skill against pilot skill, and people aren't bothering to use it because they have a MUCH better chance to escape if they submit than if they try to run.
That's not right, is it? Surely the best thing to do is to win the running away game? If you want to run, submitting should be the worst thing to do. It would make more sense if your frame shift cooldown basically started at the beginning of the interdiction process. That way, if you escape, you escape. If you manage to run for a long time before you're got, you'll only have a short cooldown to deal with. But if the pirate is very skilful or you submit, the cooldown still has a long time to run.
Submitting or getting caught fast should have a cooldown penalty, not an advantage. You should always be running, and running for as long as you can should be what gains the upper hand for slipping away from the fight that follows.
the mechanics are not perfect, I doubt FD would claim they are, but with players who have thought out their load and risk v's reward they are pretty fair, if anything they are currently weighted in favour of the priate when it comes to risk; you're rebuy is peanuts compared to the trader most of the time and very often the win for the trader is just to escape with damage etc, whre as the pirate win is anything from cargo plus kill down to some cargo.
There are plenty of so called 'pirates' who are seriously just gettign a dishonest pirate a bad name, see how many players would rather be pirating are now bounty hunting pirate wannabe's
I'm sure with a few hours thought I, like many others, coudl come up with some multi layered mechanics to 'solve' this problem, but most likely it would just create another.
I think you were fairly outplayed, your loss was probably less than the traders if you did any damage to him. Claiming it was unfair.... go play against NPC's
There are plenty of so called 'pirates' who are seriously just gettign a dishonest pirate a bad name, see how many players would rather be pirating are now bounty hunting pirate wannabe's
I'm sure with a few hours thought I, like many others, coudl come up with some multi layered mechanics to 'solve' this problem, but most likely it would just create another.
I think you were fairly outplayed, your loss was probably less than the traders if you did any damage to him. Claiming it was unfair.... go play against NPC's
Entirely. When a savvy, well equipped pirate meets a savvy, well equipped trader the correct conclusion should really be a stalemate.
I just don't think that stalemate is being arrived at by the correct route through the mechanics, from the sound of things. Submitting to interdiction should be how you pick a fight, not how you run away from one.
All this will change with the addition of "Wings".
Pirates will be able to hunt in packs and use their superior numbers and firepower to force the traders to drop cargo or be obliterated. On the flipside, traders will be able to employ escorts to deal with any pirate attacks. As it stands currently, I believe the system works well. In this encounter we see described, the trader was better spec'd and displayed better skill than the OP (no offense intended). In other encounters the battle may go in the OP's favour.
Couple of questions to the OP:
1. Did you target your opponents drive system to prevent FSJ ?
2. Was your ship properly equipped ?
3. Was your ship capable of interdicting and subduing such a large target ?
4. How much is your current bounty worth?
Pirates will be able to hunt in packs and use their superior numbers and firepower to force the traders to drop cargo or be obliterated. On the flipside, traders will be able to employ escorts to deal with any pirate attacks. As it stands currently, I believe the system works well. In this encounter we see described, the trader was better spec'd and displayed better skill than the OP (no offense intended). In other encounters the battle may go in the OP's favour.
Couple of questions to the OP:
1. Did you target your opponents drive system to prevent FSJ ?
2. Was your ship properly equipped ?
3. Was your ship capable of interdicting and subduing such a large target ?
4. How much is your current bounty worth?
The problem is that for the trader it is hard to win the interdiction to start with, i have flown every ship there is from winder up to t9.
Every single one.
And winning in an t9 is against npc pirates already hard enough, plus ship damage when you loose but manage to run.
The reason why i do not play mmo anymore is that the people who want PvP think everyone HAS to want PvP and considers it as exiting as they do.
I do not have anything against the battle here and there, but see it from my side.
I played one day out of error from my side in open.
I got interdictet scooping at SOL, got interdictet twice on the way to Daedalus, all in an empty T7.
So.. what is your point?
Why should i play in open?
SOL CRAWLS with police.
So in open i can not scoop because let face it, it is a sitting duck thing, you are way slow so very easy to interdict.
So you have to buy fuel at station playing in open or add much more risk.
Frontier decided that weapons and shields reduce your jumprange in an major way (as said ship mass compared to wepon mass)
That all drives reward from trading through the bottom, you make more bounty hunting npc in an anarchy systhem and if you happen to pvp you are sitting in an fighter, not an expensive slow freighter.
So you will see very few frighters in open and the few that there are will be driven out as soon Elite attracts more players and the pea shooting starts.
Right now it is rather calm and people are busy making money to have ships and what not, but as soon there is a bigger player base and people have the ships and gear they want it will be open season, and everyone who sits not in something with big guns will go solo.
Freighters should be slow lumbering HEAVY shielded affairs who carry enough wepons to force smaller pirate ships to strafe run for some time until they get anywhere.
They should not be reduced to 10 light years jump if full kittet for fight.
They should be though so slow that they are not worth to use as war ship.
Very defensive, slow and you burn your fingers if you are not very very carefull attacking them, but so slow that they have no tactical worth for an actual fight (every fighter ship can outrun them)
Right now they are either freighters who make an income or if kittet out to deal with pirates make an phyton or anaconda look sexy regarding trading in them.
Insuyrance is high and margins from trading range from me in solo with an paper tank t9 with min shield 600,000 IF LUCKY to normal 300.000, in open with all guns and shields, bigger powerplant and energy bus, very low jump range it is more in 200.000 per run, but ship insurance will cost me more in the range of eight mill + freight
The math as it is makes trading nothing viable compared to npc bounty hunting where i can rake in an million half an hour sitting in an turreted phyton with two big guns to keep PvP players at bay or have real good chance to run if things become dicey.
Freighters are sitting targets right now who can either create income or be kittet out for defense, but not booth.
Ask any trader playing in open if they would still play if they are interdicted at every run, my guess is very few would.
Elite is right now not very crowded, and as said, people still grind for shineys, but as soon there are more players and people have the shineys they want you will see no Laakon ships anymore and very few clippers.
It will be either cheap small ships or phyton and condas.
Everything else will be npc/
Reduce/do away the jump range penalty for weapons on freighter, beef up there shields, add many small weapon hard points so they are not overpowering but hard to wear down and you may have an viable thing running there where an freighter captain will like to go toe to toe with an pirate.
If an fight between an good equipped pirate and freighter means a 50% chance that the pirate goes boom if to frisky is the outcome we have something, but i doubt you will find many pirates then anymore.
Right now freighter are equipped with paper walls or become to heavy and have to low jumprange to make that an viable option compared to other means of income.
You need to give merchants the shiny too if you want to have them playing with you because they only risk to loose somethign from interdictions, not gain anything, they only can reduce losses, they have no plus from piracy as it is.
Every single one.
And winning in an t9 is against npc pirates already hard enough, plus ship damage when you loose but manage to run.
The reason why i do not play mmo anymore is that the people who want PvP think everyone HAS to want PvP and considers it as exiting as they do.
I do not have anything against the battle here and there, but see it from my side.
I played one day out of error from my side in open.
I got interdictet scooping at SOL, got interdictet twice on the way to Daedalus, all in an empty T7.
So.. what is your point?
Why should i play in open?
SOL CRAWLS with police.
So in open i can not scoop because let face it, it is a sitting duck thing, you are way slow so very easy to interdict.
So you have to buy fuel at station playing in open or add much more risk.
Frontier decided that weapons and shields reduce your jumprange in an major way (as said ship mass compared to wepon mass)
That all drives reward from trading through the bottom, you make more bounty hunting npc in an anarchy systhem and if you happen to pvp you are sitting in an fighter, not an expensive slow freighter.
So you will see very few frighters in open and the few that there are will be driven out as soon Elite attracts more players and the pea shooting starts.
Right now it is rather calm and people are busy making money to have ships and what not, but as soon there is a bigger player base and people have the ships and gear they want it will be open season, and everyone who sits not in something with big guns will go solo.
Freighters should be slow lumbering HEAVY shielded affairs who carry enough wepons to force smaller pirate ships to strafe run for some time until they get anywhere.
They should not be reduced to 10 light years jump if full kittet for fight.
They should be though so slow that they are not worth to use as war ship.
Very defensive, slow and you burn your fingers if you are not very very carefull attacking them, but so slow that they have no tactical worth for an actual fight (every fighter ship can outrun them)
Right now they are either freighters who make an income or if kittet out to deal with pirates make an phyton or anaconda look sexy regarding trading in them.
Insuyrance is high and margins from trading range from me in solo with an paper tank t9 with min shield 600,000 IF LUCKY to normal 300.000, in open with all guns and shields, bigger powerplant and energy bus, very low jump range it is more in 200.000 per run, but ship insurance will cost me more in the range of eight mill + freight
The math as it is makes trading nothing viable compared to npc bounty hunting where i can rake in an million half an hour sitting in an turreted phyton with two big guns to keep PvP players at bay or have real good chance to run if things become dicey.
Freighters are sitting targets right now who can either create income or be kittet out for defense, but not booth.
Ask any trader playing in open if they would still play if they are interdicted at every run, my guess is very few would.
Elite is right now not very crowded, and as said, people still grind for shineys, but as soon there are more players and people have the shineys they want you will see no Laakon ships anymore and very few clippers.
It will be either cheap small ships or phyton and condas.
Everything else will be npc/
Reduce/do away the jump range penalty for weapons on freighter, beef up there shields, add many small weapon hard points so they are not overpowering but hard to wear down and you may have an viable thing running there where an freighter captain will like to go toe to toe with an pirate.
If an fight between an good equipped pirate and freighter means a 50% chance that the pirate goes boom if to frisky is the outcome we have something, but i doubt you will find many pirates then anymore.
Right now freighter are equipped with paper walls or become to heavy and have to low jumprange to make that an viable option compared to other means of income.
You need to give merchants the shiny too if you want to have them playing with you because they only risk to loose somethign from interdictions, not gain anything, they only can reduce losses, they have no plus from piracy as it is.
Let's do some different math.
MAx out a cobra - A's in everything, loaded for bear - only keep minimal cargo space since you're pirating. The most you can weigh fully laden is around 320.
Do the same for an Asp, but bias it more towards trading. A laden Asp will be significantly more massive than you are and you shouldn't be able to mass lock them. They'll get away.
If a type 6 is optimized for lightness and jump range, you'll probably be able to mass lock it if it's unladen but who hunts unladen traders?
The way this looks to me is that if you're geared for combat and punching above your weight, you can probably mass lock a lightly laden ship thats one "size class" - for want of a better word - above you. You will be able to mass lock equivalent size or smaller ships reliably.
piracy is a tough ole life, devs should really look into it, makes the whole "reporting crime" and waiting for the calvary pointless, if comparing it to modern or historical settings, there would usually be a grace period before the the fuzz arrives if saying robbing a security van, kinda like the movie "heat" or the wild west stage coach robbery, or if we look at the spanish gallons, that were the targets of privateers.
Hell even modern day Somali pirates have more success then elite dangerous pirates, and there boarding freighters in a speed boat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_attacked_by_Somali_pirates
http://www.yurtopic.com/society/culture/modern-pirates.html
it's a bit silly how easy it is to escape piracy, with no need to do your trading in high security zones for extra protection, because the result will be the same with a quick getaway. If an FSD interdiction unit pulls you out of supercruise, then surely it must be able to stop someone from jumping into supercruise so longs it powered, it's a pretty greedy component for your ship for the power it requires and yet quite useless for the most part.
Hell even modern day Somali pirates have more success then elite dangerous pirates, and there boarding freighters in a speed boat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_attacked_by_Somali_pirates
http://www.yurtopic.com/society/culture/modern-pirates.html
it's a bit silly how easy it is to escape piracy, with no need to do your trading in high security zones for extra protection, because the result will be the same with a quick getaway. If an FSD interdiction unit pulls you out of supercruise, then surely it must be able to stop someone from jumping into supercruise so longs it powered, it's a pretty greedy component for your ship for the power it requires and yet quite useless for the most part.
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The whole point is not about mass lock and what not.
WHAT IS IN IT FOR THE FREIGHTER?
Right now, an interdiction i loose costs me to start with about 50.000 Cr.
At this point i had not not my fun out of it.
As it is (game mechanics) as long the pirate is not total incompetent he splatters chaff rendering my turrets, the only thing that could hit him useless...
So my only option is to wait out cooldown and try to get away.
Yes, my idea of an funny afternoon, big repair bill, and lucky if i get not mass locked, and be honest, the pirates who start an nice chat and go away for the price of some loot are rather rare.
Give my slow ship that turns slow and is expensive to repair after each interdiction decent armor and weapons that make it hard for pirates to get past.
Piracy versus trading the risk reward is on the pirates side, the freighter has only the risk and even if he manages to jump out already a fat repair bill waiting at next port. (if he plays the interdiction game, and an t9 WILL loose most the time because it has abysmal turn rates in the interdiction game.
I have really not the faintest what the devs have thought setting it up, but nothing that has to do with online gameplay where you do not have an game master who oversees things and pitches the challenge just right.
Piracy is easy with three factions, you can hunt in two and stay clean in one, npc police is slow to show up, and freighters are laughable in there defense.
It may work in an single player game settign as it is, but it will not work in an multiplayer game for the simple reason that people get around limitations always.
So if you make the freighter depend on outside help to defend itself in an meaningfull way there will be no freighters.
If you arm the merchant vessels today with a few chaingun turrets there would be no pirates, but then they have trouble entering most ports of the world, gouvernments take an dim view on ships carrying high powered guns.
It is all risk and reward, as soon piracy annoys the people with the big money enough it will go away.
In the meantime the low paid sailors suffer the piracy, easy as that.
But we are talking here about an game people play to have fun, so find an way to make piracy for freighters fun too or you will have no freighters, it is that simple.
Explain to me honestly why anyone should run an freighter in Elite Dangerous if piracy is silly easy? (as long the person in question is not an masochist offcourse)